"Dave" wrote
...
On Mar 20, 8:26 am, Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
"Phil Allison"
...

"Richard Clark"

Now, as to your experience of receiving signals on the wrong
frequency, that is a classic situation of image rejection being poor
due to the lack of a tuned front-end (something that dissappeared with
the dinosaurs). If I were to guess on the basis of 40 year old
experience fixing these suckers, your off-frequency signals are
probably shifted by twice the IF frequency of your receiver. The
classical FM IF frequency of 10.7 MHz might apply, but time has
marched on and designers may select their own. This old standard
would argue that you shouldn't experience images except where they
would be out-of-band (the 88-107 band with this IF would force that).

** Hearing the same FM station at more than one spot is still possible
even with a 10.7 MHz IF frequency - if the signal is very strong. The
reason is harmonics of the incoming carrier generated in the RF stage
interacting with harmonics of the local oscillator in the mixer.

It sound like the "Luxembourg Effect". The signal was from the dipole
antenna.
Are now the FM stations which use the dipoles?

Eg:

A 100MHz FM carrier generates a harmonic at 200MHz in the receiver.

When the local oscillator is adjusted to 94.65 MHz, its second harmonic
is
189.3 MHz.

The difference frequency is then 10.7 MHz - so goes through to the FM
detector.

In this situation, the FM deviation is doubled so the recovered audio
will
be distorted on loud passages.

all antennas are dipoles, you just can't always see the other half.

If I can't see the other half it is the monopole.
So I repeat my question: Are now the FM stations which use the dipoles?


and Luxembourg has nothing to do with it, your silly frequency
doubling notions should be packaged up in art's box and never see the
light of day.

The dipoles have the directional pattern like this:
http://www-antenna.ee.titech.ac.jp/~...ole/index.html

It looks like the interference of the many sources (dipoles have the two).

The two sources not in phase double the frequencies.
S*

On Mar 21, 11:42*am, Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
"Dave" ...
On Mar 20, 8:26 am, Szczepan Bia ek wrote:



"Phil Allison"
...

"Richard Clark"

Now, as to your experience of receiving signals on the wrong
frequency, that is a classic situation of image rejection being poor
due to the lack of a tuned front-end (something that dissappeared with
the dinosaurs). If I were to guess on the basis of 40 year old
experience fixing these suckers, your off-frequency signals are
probably shifted by twice the IF frequency of your receiver. The
classical FM IF frequency of 10.7 MHz might apply, but time has
marched on and designers may select their own. This old standard
would argue that you shouldn't experience images except where they
would be out-of-band (the 88-107 band with this IF would force that)..

** Hearing the same FM station at more than one spot is still possible
even with a 10.7 MHz IF frequency - if the signal is very strong. The
reason is harmonics of the incoming carrier generated in the RF stage
interacting with harmonics of the local oscillator in the mixer.

It sound like the "Luxembourg Effect". The signal was from the dipole
antenna.
Are now the FM stations which use the dipoles?

Eg:

A 100MHz FM carrier generates a harmonic at 200MHz in the receiver.

When the local oscillator is adjusted to 94.65 MHz, its second harmonic
is
189.3 MHz.

The difference frequency is then 10.7 MHz - so goes through to the FM
detector.

In this situation, the FM deviation is doubled so the recovered audio
will
be distorted on loud passages.
all antennas are dipoles, you just can't always see the other half.

If I can't see the other half it is the monopole.
So I repeat my question: Are now the FM stations which use the dipoles?

and Luxembourg *has nothing to do with it, your silly frequency

doubling notions should be packaged up in art's box and never see the
light of day.

The dipoles have the directional pattern like this:http://www-antenna.ee.titech.ac.jp/~...ole/index.html

It looks like the interference of the many sources (dipoles have the two)..

The two sources not in phase double the frequencies.
S*

so why when i switch my transmitter from a 'monopole' where YOU can't
see the other half to a dipole does the frequency stay the same?

"Dave" wrote
...
On Mar 21, 11:42 am, Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
"Dave"
...
On Mar 20, 8:26 am, Szczepan Bia ek wrote:



"Phil Allison"
...

"Richard Clark"

Now, as to your experience of receiving signals on the wrong
frequency, that is a classic situation of image rejection being poor
due to the lack of a tuned front-end (something that dissappeared
with
the dinosaurs). If I were to guess on the basis of 40 year old
experience fixing these suckers, your off-frequency signals are
probably shifted by twice the IF frequency of your receiver. The
classical FM IF frequency of 10.7 MHz might apply, but time has
marched on and designers may select their own. This old standard
would argue that you shouldn't experience images except where they
would be out-of-band (the 88-107 band with this IF would force that).

** Hearing the same FM station at more than one spot is still
possible
even with a 10.7 MHz IF frequency - if the signal is very strong. The
reason is harmonics of the incoming carrier generated in the RF stage
interacting with harmonics of the local oscillator in the mixer.

It sound like the "Luxembourg Effect". The signal was from the dipole
antenna.
Are now the FM stations which use the dipoles?

Eg:

A 100MHz FM carrier generates a harmonic at 200MHz in the receiver.

When the local oscillator is adjusted to 94.65 MHz, its second
harmonic
is
189.3 MHz.

The difference frequency is then 10.7 MHz - so goes through to the FM
detector.

In this situation, the FM deviation is doubled so the recovered audio
will
be distorted on loud passages.
all antennas are dipoles, you just can't always see the other half.

If I can't see the other half it is the monopole.
So I repeat my question: Are now the FM stations which use the dipoles?

and Luxembourg has nothing to do with it, your silly frequency

doubling notions should be packaged up in art's box and never see the
light of day.

The dipoles have the directional pattern like
this:http://www-antenna.ee.titech.ac.jp/~...ole/index.html

It looks like the interference of the many sources (dipoles have the two).

The two sources not in phase double the frequencies.
S*

so why when i switch my transmitter from a 'monopole' where YOU can't
see the other half to a dipole does the frequency stay the same?

Your transmitter has the same but in the receiver antenna is possibility
that appear the doubled frequency.
Luxembourg effect was observed in 1930. Now radio people manage with
eliminating it.
S*

On Mar 21, 12:11*pm, Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
*"Dave" ...
On Mar 21, 11:42 am, Szczepan Bia ek wrote:



"Dave"
...
On Mar 20, 8:26 am, Szczepan Bia ek wrote:

"Phil Allison"
...

"Richard Clark"

Now, as to your experience of receiving signals on the wrong
frequency, that is a classic situation of image rejection being poor
due to the lack of a tuned front-end (something that dissappeared
with
the dinosaurs). If I were to guess on the basis of 40 year old
experience fixing these suckers, your off-frequency signals are
probably shifted by twice the IF frequency of your receiver. The
classical FM IF frequency of 10.7 MHz might apply, but time has
marched on and designers may select their own. This old standard
would argue that you shouldn't experience images except where they
would be out-of-band (the 88-107 band with this IF would force that).

** Hearing the same FM station at more than one spot is still
possible
even with a 10.7 MHz IF frequency - if the signal is very strong. The
reason is harmonics of the incoming carrier generated in the RF stage
interacting with harmonics of the local oscillator in the mixer.

It sound like the "Luxembourg Effect". The signal was from the dipole
antenna.
Are now the FM stations which use the dipoles?

Eg:

A 100MHz FM carrier generates a harmonic at 200MHz in the receiver..

When the local oscillator is adjusted to 94.65 MHz, its second
harmonic
is
189.3 MHz.

The difference frequency is then 10.7 MHz - so goes through to the FM
detector.

In this situation, the FM deviation is doubled so the recovered audio
will
be distorted on loud passages.
all antennas are dipoles, you just can't always see the other half.

If I can't see the other half it is the monopole.
So I repeat my question: Are now the FM stations which use the dipoles?

and Luxembourg has nothing to do with it, your silly frequency

doubling notions should be packaged up in art's box and never see the
light of day.

The dipoles have the directional pattern like
this:http://www-antenna.ee.titech.ac.jp/~...le/index..html

It looks like the interference of the many sources (dipoles have the two).

The two sources not in phase double the frequencies.
S*
so why when i switch my transmitter from a 'monopole' where YOU can't

see the other half to a dipole does the frequency stay the same?

Your transmitter has the same but in the receiver antenna is possibility
that appear the doubled frequency.
Luxembourg effect was observed in 1930. Now radio people manage with
eliminating it.
S*

nope, the receiver still hears the proper transmitted frequency.

"Dave" wrote
...
On Mar 21, 12:11 pm, Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:

The dipoles have the directional pattern like
this:http://www-antenna.ee.titech.ac.jp/~...ole/index.html

It looks like the interference of the many sources (dipoles have the
two).

The two sources not in phase double the frequencies.
S*
so why when i switch my transmitter from a 'monopole' where YOU can't

see the other half to a dipole does the frequency stay the same?

Your transmitter has the same but in the receiver antenna is possibility
that appear the doubled frequency.
Luxembourg effect was observed in 1930. Now radio people manage with
eliminating it.
S*

nope, the receiver still hears the proper transmitted frequency.

Yes. THY receiver is tuned to the transmitted frequency.
Luxembourg effect means that another receiver tuned to the doubled your
frequency hears you.
S*

Luxembourg effect was observed in 1930. Now radio people manage with
eliminating it.
S*

nope, the receiver still hears the proper transmitted frequency.

Yes. THY receiver is tuned to the transmitted frequency.
Luxembourg effect means that another receiver tuned to the doubled your
frequency hears you.


Perhaps you should read up on what the Luxembourg Effect actually was!!

It had nothing to do with antennas!!

It was Cross Modulation in the ionosphere between Radio Luxenbourg and
other radio stations, where by the modulation of Radio Luxenbourg was
heard superimposed onto the second station.

Jeff

Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:

"Dave" wrote
...
On Mar 21, 11:42 am, Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
"Dave"
...

On Mar 20, 8:26 am, Szczepan Bia ek wrote:



"Phil Allison"
...

"Richard Clark"

Now, as to your experience of receiving signals on the wrong
frequency, that is a classic situation of image rejection being poor
due to the lack of a tuned front-end (something that dissappeared
with
the dinosaurs). If I were to guess on the basis of 40 year old
experience fixing these suckers, your off-frequency signals are
probably shifted by twice the IF frequency of your receiver. The
classical FM IF frequency of 10.7 MHz might apply, but time has
marched on and designers may select their own. This old standard
would argue that you shouldn't experience images except where they
would be out-of-band (the 88-107 band with this IF would force
that).

** Hearing the same FM station at more than one spot is still
possible
even with a 10.7 MHz IF frequency - if the signal is very strong. The
reason is harmonics of the incoming carrier generated in the RF stage
interacting with harmonics of the local oscillator in the mixer.

It sound like the "Luxembourg Effect". The signal was from the dipole
antenna.
Are now the FM stations which use the dipoles?

Eg:

A 100MHz FM carrier generates a harmonic at 200MHz in the receiver.

When the local oscillator is adjusted to 94.65 MHz, its second
harmonic
is
189.3 MHz.

The difference frequency is then 10.7 MHz - so goes through to
the FM
detector.

In this situation, the FM deviation is doubled so the recovered
audio
will
be distorted on loud passages.
all antennas are dipoles, you just can't always see the other half.

If I can't see the other half it is the monopole.
So I repeat my question: Are now the FM stations which use the dipoles?

and Luxembourg has nothing to do with it, your silly frequency

doubling notions should be packaged up in art's box and never see the
light of day.

The dipoles have the directional pattern like
this:http://www-antenna.ee.titech.ac.jp/~...ole/index.html


It looks like the interference of the many sources (dipoles have the
two).

The two sources not in phase double the frequencies.
S*

so why when i switch my transmitter from a 'monopole' where YOU can't
see the other half to a dipole does the frequency stay the same?

Your transmitter has the same but in the receiver antenna is possibility
that appear the doubled frequency.


Luxembourg effect was observed in 1930. Now radio people manage with
eliminating it.

I doubt that ionization in the atmosphere has anything to do with what
is being observed.

However, overloading or cross modulation in the receiver is much more
likely.

S*

Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:

"Dave" wrote
...
On Mar 20, 8:26 am, Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
"Phil Allison"
...

"Richard Clark"

Now, as to your experience of receiving signals on the wrong
frequency, that is a classic situation of image rejection being poor
due to the lack of a tuned front-end (something that dissappeared with
the dinosaurs). If I were to guess on the basis of 40 year old
experience fixing these suckers, your off-frequency signals are
probably shifted by twice the IF frequency of your receiver. The
classical FM IF frequency of 10.7 MHz might apply, but time has
marched on and designers may select their own. This old standard
would argue that you shouldn't experience images except where they
would be out-of-band (the 88-107 band with this IF would force that).

** Hearing the same FM station at more than one spot is still possible
even with a 10.7 MHz IF frequency - if the signal is very strong. The
reason is harmonics of the incoming carrier generated in the RF stage
interacting with harmonics of the local oscillator in the mixer.

It sound like the "Luxembourg Effect". The signal was from the dipole
antenna.
Are now the FM stations which use the dipoles?

Eg:

A 100MHz FM carrier generates a harmonic at 200MHz in the receiver.

When the local oscillator is adjusted to 94.65 MHz, its second
harmonic is
189.3 MHz.

The difference frequency is then 10.7 MHz - so goes through to the FM
detector.

In this situation, the FM deviation is doubled so the recovered
audio will
be distorted on loud passages.

all antennas are dipoles, you just can't always see the other half.

If I can't see the other half it is the monopole.
So I repeat my question: Are now the FM stations which use the dipoles?

You significant lack of understanding of dipoles is causing you to ask
silly questions that are meaningless.




and Luxembourg has nothing to do with it, your silly frequency
doubling notions should be packaged up in art's box and never see the
light of day.

The dipoles have the directional pattern like this:
http://www-antenna.ee.titech.ac.jp/~...ole/index.html

This shows effects over a 48:1 frequency range. The FM band represents a
1.23:1 range. The image has no bearing on the topic at hand.


It looks like the interference of the many sources (dipoles have the two).

The two sources not in phase double the frequencies.

This is completely wrong. In a _linear_ systems adding two signals
cannot create new frequencies, including doubling. In the frequency
domain this is clear. If you look in the time domain and look at zero
crossings you may be confused. Do the math for the addition of two sine
waves of different phase. Stop relying on internet images you don't
understand and may not have any relevance to the discussion.

You can do the math in the time domain, or frequency domain. Either
should tell you there is no doubling of frequencies.

In order to generate new frequencies you need to have a non-linear
effect. Addition is NOT a non-linear operation.


S*

"joe" wrote ...
Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:

So I repeat my question: Are now the FM stations which use the dipoles?

You significant lack of understanding of dipoles is causing you to ask
silly questions that are meaningless.


and Luxembourg has nothing to do with it, your silly frequency
doubling notions should be packaged up in art's box and never see the
light of day.

The dipoles have the directional pattern like this:
http://www-antenna.ee.titech.ac.jp/~...ole/index.html

This shows effects over a 48:1 frequency range. The FM band represents a
1.23:1 range. The image has no bearing on the topic at hand.


It looks like the interference of the many sources (dipoles have the
two).

The two sources not in phase double the frequencies.

This is completely wrong. In a _linear_ systems adding two signals cannot
create new frequencies, including doubling. In the frequency domain this
is clear. If you look in the time domain and look at zero crossings you
may be confused. Do the math for the addition of two sine waves of
different phase.

In reality no sine waves. In the ends of a dipole the voltage is doubled
(VSWR) and the strong picks are radiated.

Stop relying on internet images you don't understand and may not have any
relevance to the discussion.

Discussion is on the harmonics. The dipoles can produce the frequency
doubling.

You can do the math in the time domain, or frequency domain. Either should
tell you there is no doubling of frequencies.

In the school math the water waves are transversal. Look as they are
like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokes_drift

In order to generate new frequencies you need to have a non-linear effect.
Addition is NOT a non-linear operation.

The two picks from the ends of the dipole are not linear.
S*


S*

Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:

"joe" wrote ...

This is completely wrong. In a _linear_ systems adding two signals
cannot create new frequencies, including doubling. In the frequency
domain this is clear. If you look in the time domain and look at zero
crossings you may be confused. Do the math for the addition of two
sine waves of different phase.

In reality no sine waves.

The you had better learn what Fourier analysis is all about.

In the ends of a dipole the voltage is doubled
(VSWR) and the strong picks are radiated.

Stop relying on internet images you don't understand and may not have
any relevance to the discussion.

Discussion is on the harmonics. The dipoles can produce the frequency
doubling.

If that were true radio communications would be much more of a mess than
it currently is. You don't understand antennas and need to start learning.



You can do the math in the time domain, or frequency domain. Either
should tell you there is no doubling of frequencies.

In the school math the water waves are transversal. Look as they are
like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokes_drift

In order to generate new frequencies you need to have a non-linear
effect. Addition is NOT a non-linear operation.

The two picks from the ends of the dipole are not linear.

How would you go about proving that?


S*


S*