"Tiny Neutrinos May Have Broken Cosmic Speed Limit"
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/23/sc...speed.html?hpw

"the neutrinos raced from a particle accelerator at CERN outside
Geneva, where they were created, to a cavern underneath Gran Sasso in
Italy, a distance of about 450 miles, about 60 nanoseconds faster than
it would take a light beam. That amounts to a speed greater than light
by about 0.0025 percent (2.5 parts in a hundred thousand). "

I am impressed that they know the Permeability and Permittivity of
that dirt path to 0.0025% at any time of year, and time of day, for
any weather (for the speed of light comparison).

"Dr. Ellis noted that a similar experiment was reported by a
collaboration known as Minos in 2007 on neutrinos created at Fermilab
in Illinois and beamed through the Earth to the Soudan Mine in
Minnesota. That group found, although with less precision, that the
neutrino speeds were consistent with the speed of light."

They, obviously don't know their dirt (or it could be the effect of
10,000 lakes - umm, Italy has a lake district doesn't it?).

"Measurements of neutrinos emitted from a supernova in the Large
Magellanic Cloud in 1987, moreover, suggested that their speeds
differed from light by less than one part in a billion."

No dirt involved there (of course, I could be mistaken; it is a long
way without a rest stop).

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

"Richard Clark" wrote in message
...
"Tiny Neutrinos May Have Broken Cosmic Speed Limit"
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/23/sc...speed.html?hpw

"the neutrinos raced from a particle accelerator at CERN outside
Geneva, where they were created, to a cavern underneath Gran Sasso in
Italy, a distance of about 450 miles, about 60 nanoseconds faster than
it would take a light beam. That amounts to a speed greater than light
by about 0.0025 percent (2.5 parts in a hundred thousand). "

I am impressed that they know the Permeability and Permittivity of
that dirt path to 0.0025% at any time of year, and time of day, for
any weather (for the speed of light comparison).

"Dr. Ellis noted that a similar experiment was reported by a
collaboration known as Minos in 2007 on neutrinos created at Fermilab
in Illinois and beamed through the Earth to the Soudan Mine in
Minnesota. That group found, although with less precision, that the
neutrino speeds were consistent with the speed of light."

They, obviously don't know their dirt (or it could be the effect of
10,000 lakes - umm, Italy has a lake district doesn't it?).

"Measurements of neutrinos emitted from a supernova in the Large
Magellanic Cloud in 1987, moreover, suggested that their speeds
differed from light by less than one part in a billion."

No dirt involved there (of course, I could be mistaken; it is a long
way without a rest stop).

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Feynman also addressed some of this. He's one of my heroes.

On Thu, 22 Sep 2011 23:41:47 -0700, "Sal" wrote:


"Richard Clark" wrote in message
.. .
"Tiny Neutrinos May Have Broken Cosmic Speed Limit"
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/23/sc...speed.html?hpw
....
I am impressed that they know the Permeability and Permittivity of
that dirt path to 0.0025% at any time of year, and time of day, for
any weather (for the speed of light comparison).

News followup:
"After Report on Speed, a Rush of Scrutiny"
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/24/sc....html?_r=1&hpw
....
"They asked detailed questions about, among other things, how the
scientists had measured the distance from CERN to Gran Sasso to what
is claimed to be an accuracy of 20 centimeters, extending GPS
measurements underground. Had they, for example taken into account the
location of the Moon and tidal bulges in the Earth’s crust?"

Feynman also addressed some of this. He's one of my heroes.

WWFD?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

"Richard Clark" napisal w wiadomosci
...
"Tiny Neutrinos May Have Broken Cosmic Speed Limit"
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/23/sc...speed.html?hpw

"the neutrinos raced from a particle accelerator at CERN outside
Geneva, where they were created, to a cavern underneath Gran Sasso in
Italy, a distance of about 450 miles, about 60 nanoseconds faster than
it would take a light beam. That amounts to a speed greater than light
by about 0.0025 percent (2.5 parts in a hundred thousand). "

I am impressed that they know the Permeability and Permittivity of
that dirt path to 0.0025% at any time of year, and time of day, for
any weather (for the speed of light comparison).

Michelson-Gale dicovered in 1925 that The Earth's rotation effects the speed
of light.
It becomes in agreement with SR.

So neutrinos travel with speed c and Gran Sasso with 0.3 km/s toward them.
The time to metting is shorter.

"Dr. Ellis noted that a similar experiment was reported by a
collaboration known as Minos in 2007 on neutrinos created at Fermilab
in Illinois and beamed through the Earth to the Soudan Mine in
Minnesota. That group found, although with less precision, that the
neutrino speeds were consistent with the speed of light."

If the road is trough the Earth there no Michelson-Gale effect.

They, obviously don't know their dirt (or it could be the effect of
10,000 lakes - umm, Italy has a lake district doesn't it?).

"Measurements of neutrinos emitted from a supernova in the Large
Magellanic Cloud in 1987, moreover, suggested that their speeds
differed from light by less than one part in a billion."

There may be the effect. But only in the time when the rotational speed is
towards to supernowa.

No dirt involved there (of course, I could be mistaken; it is a long
way without a rest stop).

To you buy it?
S*

More info on measurements of speed of neutrinos

Recording of live web cast couple of days ago from CERN re measurements
http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/1384486

Other info
http://public.web.cern.ch/public/
http://arxiv.org/abs/1109.4897 (can down load detailed PDF, "cast of
thousands" participating listed at start)

Be very interesting if results are confirmed

Regards

Eric R Gray (VK3ZSB)
-------------------------------

"Richard Clark" wrote in message
...
"Tiny Neutrinos May Have Broken Cosmic Speed Limit"
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/23/sc...speed.html?hpw

"the neutrinos raced from a particle accelerator at CERN outside
Geneva, where they were created, to a cavern underneath Gran Sasso in
Italy, a distance of about 450 miles, about 60 nanoseconds faster than
it would take a light beam. That amounts to a speed greater than light
by about 0.0025 percent (2.5 parts in a hundred thousand). "

I am impressed that they know the Permeability and Permittivity of
that dirt path to 0.0025% at any time of year, and time of day, for
any weather (for the speed of light comparison).

"Dr. Ellis noted that a similar experiment was reported by a
collaboration known as Minos in 2007 on neutrinos created at Fermilab
in Illinois and beamed through the Earth to the Soudan Mine in
Minnesota. That group found, although with less precision, that the
neutrino speeds were consistent with the speed of light."

They, obviously don't know their dirt (or it could be the effect of
10,000 lakes - umm, Italy has a lake district doesn't it?).

"Measurements of neutrinos emitted from a supernova in the Large
Magellanic Cloud in 1987, moreover, suggested that their speeds
differed from light by less than one part in a billion."

No dirt involved there (of course, I could be mistaken; it is a long
way without a rest stop).

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 14:09:25 +1000, "Eric R Gray"
wrote:

Be very interesting if results are confirmed

The simple questions being asked (dirt being dirt and the tidal bulge
being triple the distance the neutrinos sped up) would seem to bury
that possibility.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

On 9/24/2011 10:56 PM, Richard Clark wrote:
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 14:09:25 +1000, "Eric R
wrote:

Be very interesting if results are confirmed

The simple questions being asked (dirt being dirt and the tidal bulge
being triple the distance the neutrinos sped up) would seem to bury
that possibility.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

I think one can safely assume that the folks doing the experiment are
aware of all those potential error sources.

http://arxiv.org/abs/1109.4897 has most of the details

For instance:
"The distance between the target focal point and the OPERA reference
frame was precisely measured in 2010 following a dedicated geodesy
campaign."

the distance is 730534.61 +/- 0.20 meters, by the way.

"The high-accuracy time-transfer GPS receiver allows to continuously
monitor tiny movements of the Earth’s crust, such as continental drift
that shows up as a smooth variation of less than 1 cm/year, and the
detection of slightly larger effects due to earthquakes. The April
2009 earthquake in the region of LNGS, in particular, produced a sudden
displacement of about 7 cm, as seen in Fig. 7. All mentioned effects are
within the accuracy of the baseline determination. Tidal effects are
negligible as well."

On Mon, 26 Sep 2011 12:13:26 -0700, Jim Lux
wrote:

I think one can safely assume that the folks doing the experiment are
aware of all those potential error sources.

The odds are distinctly against that being true.

At the end of the day, the measurement is going to expose a design
flaw (recall the Hubble Lens?), not shake the foundations of Physics.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

On 9/26/2011 2:07 PM, Richard Clark wrote:
On Mon, 26 Sep 2011 12:13:26 -0700, Jim
wrote:

I think one can safely assume that the folks doing the experiment are
aware of all those potential error sources.

The odds are distinctly against that being true.

At the end of the day, the measurement is going to expose a design
flaw (recall the Hubble Lens?), not shake the foundations of Physics.


Almost certainly you're right. But as far as the error sources
referenced in the older post (solid earth tides, etc.): those have been
taken into account.

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 14:05:58 -0700, Jim Lux
wrote:

as far as the error sources
referenced in the older post (solid earth tides, etc.):

and disregarding variations in solid earth Permeability and
Permittivity....

those have been taken into account.

Further correspondence from the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/30/op...das30.html?hpw
"Was Einstein Wrong?"

"...the Global Positioning System’s satellites are programmed to
account for the effects of relativity."

GPS is used to measure the path;
GPS is adjusted for relativity;
Relativity has been disproven;
GPS adjustments for relativity are suspect;
the method to measure the path is suspect;
the disproof is suspect.

One example of a very common experimental failure - circular
referentiality.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC