"NM5K" wrote in message ...

On 4/17/2012 10:47 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
napisal w wiadomosci
...
Szczepan wrote:
At transmitting you have the deficit and at receiving the excess.
Without the earth the static build up and radio stop working.

How would you know that when you don't even have a transmitter?

But my "friend" Marconi had a lot. He wrote:
"but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."

You will transmit just fine if you have the ground/chassis/counterpoise.
S*

And without it, fine as well.

It is not true. You know that.
S*

# I guess all the people I talk to using that portable rig
# are just a figment of my imagination?
snip

Nope. Not at all. I have quite a few contacts with a Heathkit HW-7 powered
with 8 "D" cells, a homebrew balanced tuner and open wire dipole. This was
use on board a sailboat.

"NM5K" napisal w wiadomosci
...
On 4/17/2012 3:01 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
napisal w wiadomosci
...

Fer instance, I'm sitting out in the woods up at my recreational living
center.. I have dipoles strung up in the trees which I leave there,
and I roll the rg-58 coax up and hang it on a tree branch when I leave.
Not a ground wire, or ground connection in sight.. And works perfectly
well. Of course, you can't really see the wires here, but "S" can trust
me, there is no ground connection. The radio is sitting on that stone
bench, and the only connections are 12v to my car battery,

Where is the car battery?
On the stone bench or in the car?
S*



It doesn't matter. 12v is 12v.. But to answer your question,
I open the hood of the car, and attach the wires to the battery
while it's in the car. That way I can start the car to charge
the battery every once in a while.
But the power source of the radio has nothing whatsoever to do with
the antenna. I could place the battery anywhere and the operation would
be the same. The car is not part of the antenna. The *complete* antenna
is suspended between a couple of oak trees well over my head.
The antenna is decoupled from the feed line. And there are no
connections to ground. One could consider the negative power lead
as connecting to a "chassis", IE: the body of the car, but that is
a DC connection, not RF.

Each the earth/chassis/counterpoise are the DC nett connection.

Moving the battery would make no difference whatsoever in the
performance of the antenna.

"Would" means that you are not sure.

If you want to be sure you can make the two experimments:

1. Take off the car battery and sit it on the stone bench, and/or

2. Instal the ammeters on the each wires to the battery while it's in the
car.

Would be nice to know the results.
Best Regards,
S*

napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

A loop antena have the antinodes. The points at which electrons could
"fly
off".

Yet they do not.

See Fig. 2: http://www.antiquewireless.org/otb/lodge1102.htm

Why?

A lot more has been learned since 1887.

snip

Can you measure the static electricity?

Sure, with a static meter.

Yet another device that didn't exist in 1887.


You will transmit just fine if you have the ground/chassis/counterpoise.

It depends on the type of antenna.

If it is a dipole, yagi, log-periodic, sturba curtain, rhombic, parabolic,
helix, loop, cubical quad, on any of many, many more types of antennas
that have no place or need to connect a ground, it would not.

Each of them has the chassis.
S*

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

A loop antena have the antinodes. The points at which electrons could
"fly
off".

Yet they do not.

See Fig. 2: http://www.antiquewireless.org/otb/lodge1102.htm

Why?

A lot more has been learned since 1887.

snip

Can you measure the static electricity?

Sure, with a static meter.

Yet another device that didn't exist in 1887.


You will transmit just fine if you have the ground/chassis/counterpoise.

It depends on the type of antenna.

If it is a dipole, yagi, log-periodic, sturba curtain, rhombic, parabolic,
helix, loop, cubical quad, on any of many, many more types of antennas
that have no place or need to connect a ground, it would not.

Each of them has the chassis.
S*

So your claim is that it is sufficient to "have the chassis" and that
this chassis does not have to be connected to the earth?

What constitutes "the chassis"?
Do you have any minimum size for the chassis to be a chassis?

"Rob" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...

If it is a dipole, yagi, log-periodic, sturba curtain, rhombic,
parabolic,
helix, loop, cubical quad, on any of many, many more types of antennas
that have no place or need to connect a ground, it would not.

Each of them has the chassis.
S*

So your claim is that it is sufficient to "have the chassis" and that
this chassis does not have to be connected to the earth?

What constitutes "the chassis"?
Do you have any minimum size for the chassis to be a chassis?

See the new topic "Ground".
S*

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Rob" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...

If it is a dipole, yagi, log-periodic, sturba curtain, rhombic,
parabolic,
helix, loop, cubical quad, on any of many, many more types of antennas
that have no place or need to connect a ground, it would not.

Each of them has the chassis.
S*

So your claim is that it is sufficient to "have the chassis" and that
this chassis does not have to be connected to the earth?

What constitutes "the chassis"?
Do you have any minimum size for the chassis to be a chassis?

See the new topic "Ground".
S*

No I won't. Please stick to the topic and don't run away when you
are caught with a mistake.

"Rob" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Rob" napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...

If it is a dipole, yagi, log-periodic, sturba curtain, rhombic,
parabolic,
helix, loop, cubical quad, on any of many, many more types of antennas
that have no place or need to connect a ground, it would not.

Each of them has the chassis.
S*

So your claim is that it is sufficient to "have the chassis" and that
this chassis does not have to be connected to the earth?

What constitutes "the chassis"?
Do you have any minimum size for the chassis to be a chassis?

See the new topic "Ground".
S*

No I won't. Please stick to the topic and don't run away when you
are caught with a mistake.

Here you a
"". In electronic circuit theory, a "ground" is usually idealized as an
infinite source or sink for charge, which can absorb an unlimited amount of
current without changing its potential. Where a real ground connection has a
significant resistance, the approximation of zero potential is no longer
valid. Stray voltages or earth potential rise effects will occur, which may
create noise in signals or if large enough will produce an electric shock
hazard.
The use of the term ground (or earth) is so common in electrical and
electronics applications that circuits in portable electronic devices such
as cell phones and media players as well as circuits in vehicles such as
ships, aircraft, and spacecraft may be spoken of as having a "ground"
connection without any actual connection to the Earth. This is usually a
large conductor attached to one side of the power supply (such as the
"ground plane" on a printed circuit board) which serves as the common return
path for current from many different components in the circuit." From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)

There is wrote that all of your transmitter have "a "ground" connection
without any actual connection to the Earth."

Each transmitter needs " an infinite source or sink for charge".

The above you know.

But some of you do not know that where the voltage is there is the field
electron emission. So the sink is necessary.

It must not be infinite. "a large conductor" absorb the electrons from the
air. So its size must be adequate to the emission.

Nice Fun.

S*

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Rob" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Rob" napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...

If it is a dipole, yagi, log-periodic, sturba curtain, rhombic,
parabolic,
helix, loop, cubical quad, on any of many, many more types of antennas
that have no place or need to connect a ground, it would not.

Each of them has the chassis.
S*

So your claim is that it is sufficient to "have the chassis" and that
this chassis does not have to be connected to the earth?

What constitutes "the chassis"?
Do you have any minimum size for the chassis to be a chassis?

See the new topic "Ground".
S*

No I won't. Please stick to the topic and don't run away when you
are caught with a mistake.

Here you a
"". In electronic circuit theory, a "ground" is usually idealized as an
infinite source or sink for charge, which can absorb an unlimited amount of
current without changing its potential. Where a real ground connection has a
significant resistance, the approximation of zero potential is no longer
valid. Stray voltages or earth potential rise effects will occur, which may
create noise in signals or if large enough will produce an electric shock
hazard.
The use of the term ground (or earth) is so common in electrical and
electronics applications that circuits in portable electronic devices such
as cell phones and media players as well as circuits in vehicles such as
ships, aircraft, and spacecraft may be spoken of as having a "ground"
connection without any actual connection to the Earth. This is usually a
large conductor attached to one side of the power supply (such as the
"ground plane" on a printed circuit board) which serves as the common return
path for current from many different components in the circuit." From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)

There is wrote that all of your transmitter have "a "ground" connection
without any actual connection to the Earth."

Each transmitter needs " an infinite source or sink for charge".

The above you know.

I know that it is not true.
A transmitter needs no infinite source or sink for charge because it
does not generate any DC current into the antenna.

But some of you do not know that where the voltage is there is the field
electron emission. So the sink is necessary.

It must not be infinite. "a large conductor" absorb the electrons from the
air. So its size must be adequate to the emission.

Nice Fun.

S*

Ok so we can finally rest the case and agree that a connection to
earth is not required for a transmitter, something you have claimed
all the time because Marconi wrote it.

On 4/18/2012 2:28 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:


Each the earth/chassis/counterpoise are the DC nett connection.

That statement does not compute.


Moving the battery would make no difference whatsoever in the
performance of the antenna.

"Would" means that you are not sure.

No, "would" means just that. And I am sure.

If you want to be sure you can make the two experimments:

I'm already sure. I've run more portable stations over the
years than you can imagine. With batteries in and out of the
cars, using various types of "complete" antennas, and also
using the vertical antennas on the vehicles.
Even if I use an antenna on the vehicle, which *would*
use the car body as part of the antenna, where I have
the battery or radio makes no measurable difference in antenna
performance.

On Apr 17, 10:19*am, Jeff wrote:
On 17/04/2012 12:35, W5DXP wrote:
On Apr 17, 3:41 am, *wrote:
Corona discharge has nothing to do with grounding, it is purely due to
the peak voltages seen at, (usually), the tips of the elements.

To what are those peak voltages referenced?

* The feedpoint and the surrounding air molecules

How does one actually measure the voltage on the ends of an antenna?
--
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com