On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 18:49:08 +0200, "Szczepan Bialek"
wrote:

And what do you do with the static build up?
Best Regards,
S*

Use a static electricity dissipator:
https://www.google.com/search?q=static+dissipator&tbm=isch
Commonly found on airplane wing tips, fiberglass hull vessels, and
ungrounded towers prone to lightning hits. A 1M resistor to ground
will discharge any static build up across a base insulated tower.
http://www.lbagroup.com/international/tower-lightning-protection.php
http://www.lpsnet.com/ALS.asp

I'm not sure why you're arguing about grounding antennas. There are
plenty of examples of antennas that operate without a ground. If low
frequencies are your immediate concern, may I point out that DF loop
antennas are very popular on the beacon bands (200-400KHz). They also
work nicely in airplanes, where there's no available earth ground. BCB
is no different. There were plenty of antique home receivers that
used either an internal or external loop (or loopstick) antenna, that
didn't require a ground connection.

If BCB stations decided to use horizontal dipoles instead of vertical
monopoles, a ground would not be needed. The only reason they need a
ground is to act as the counterpoise for the monopole. This provides
the missing 1/4 wave element of the dipole.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 4/15/2012 11:28 AM, Channel Jumper wrote:
Well I am going to be unusually kind today, since it is Sunday and also
because I am going to show some intelligence here. So everyone listen
up - because I am only going to do this one time.

How kind of you.


I am not going to fight over who invented radio, or the different types
of modulation scheme's - since the days of spark gap transmitters.

I tried to post some relevant information - but it seemed to get lost in
the jumble.

The info you posted dealt with mostly mobile applications.
Only vaguely relevant to the statement at hand, which was a quote
from a long dead radio buoy, stating that no practical wireless
system exists, which is not connected to earth.




Most of the irrelevant blabber-gab deleted to save bandwidth,
except for this one..

There is nothing in outer space for the signals to bounce off of - so
they travel millions of miles in just a couple of seconds.

That I would like to see, being as it takes light from the sun
over eight minutes to travel from the sun, to the earth.. Try about
372,564 miles in two seconds.. Hardly millions..


Or that some ham would be willing to spend 10's of thousands of dollars
to buy a transceiver that does the same basic thing as a AM radio you
can buy in any Walmart or Goodwill for a couple of bucks.

That's about one silly statement, unless the ham plans to do
nothing but listen to KTRH all day long. Most use them in other ways,
which most all of which the typical Wallace World special could only
dream of. I only wish Wallace World sold usable amateur radios for a
couple of bucks.
I'd have several hundred more radios than I already have. :|


When you crank up the power, it allows the person on the other end to
use a smaller antenna - hence the people who buys or builds the big
towers and the big beam antenna's would think that their investment
would allow them global communications on a daily basis - and still we
have not gotten past the fact that all reliable communicatiosn is LOS -
even 100 years later...

Does that mean they are all SOL?


The OP wanted to debate the fact that some antenna's works best when we
include some type of ground. Yes a good vertical transmitting antenna
includes some type of ground to keep the signal from warming the clouds
and being wasted.

Not all verticals require ground systems, and how did the clouds
ever get involved?
Seems you may be confusing the benefits of feed line decoupling
with the benefits of a radial system under a ground mounted monopole. :/

A beam antenna does not have a physical ground, yet still works - maybe
the ground reflections helps the signals to travel further.

Then maybe they don't.. Also, some directional arrays do use ground
systems, if they are ground mounted.
But this statement does not mean Marconi's statement is correct.


But we all know that effective communications requires the antenna to be
as high as possible.

In some cases, it may make no difference how high the antennas are.
In others, it may mean a great deal.

Only once you get to what is it 38,000 miles one antenna will transmit
to one hemisphere - or is it what ever part of the earth you can see and
will transmit no further.
That is the point of diminishing returns.

Maybe so, but there are no structures that high for me to
attach an antenna to. And I can't jump that high.

In the statement about AM Broadcasters you state about the ideal ground
system & describe about the Radials but then ask why, That goes to show you
don't know anything about Antennas, Transmitters. Feedlines, Matching,
Efficiency, If you read farther you would have possibly learned something
but you don't want to learn just bother the group. Nowhere in what you wrote
does it state it is for static or what it is for except if you would read
farther it would have told you...What about a balanced antenna, It has no
earth connection & doesn't need one per your earth definition. If Maxwell
was alive today & had read about all the improvements & discoveries that
have been made & are still being made He would say He was wrong & that the
answer to your question is NO.....I see you have started a new thread called
Electron Gun but keep referring back to this thread for the answer. I'm
very sure you know nothing about a electron gun, or a vacuum tube....To bad
you don't know how to read or study & especially learn about anything...
"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
.. .

"Jeff" napisal w wiadomosci
...
On 15/04/2012 10:33, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
Uzytkownik napisal w wiadomosci
...
On 15/04/2012 09:58, Szczepan Bialek wrote:

But you wrote that your radio have the earth/chassis.

The point that you are missing is that the earth connection has
NOTHING
to do with transmitting or receiving a signal. If is merely there for
safety in the event of a lightening strike or build up or static.

So the radio have the earth/chassis.

Ian's equipment will work no differently is the earth connection is
disconnected. Marconi was WRONG!!!!

And what about your equipment?
Is the earth connection disconnected?
S*



I have no earth connection, so it cannot be connected or disconnected.

Why than: "The ideal ground system forAM broadcasters comprises at least
120 buried copper or phosphor bronze radial wires at least one-quarter
wavelength long and a ground-screen in the immediate vicinity of the
tower. All the ground system components are bonded together, usually by
welding, brazing or using coin silversolder to help reduce corrosion".
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopole_antenna

Tell them that they are WRONG.
S*

"Ian" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

Real dipole needs:
"In the lower half of the mast, there was a vertical steel tube, attached
to the mast's outer structure with large insulators. This tube was
grounded at the bottom, and connected electrically to the mast structure
by an adjustable metal bar at 328 metres.[2] This technique allowed
adjusting the impedance of the mast for the transmitter and worked by
applying a DC ground at a point of low radiofrequency voltage, to conduct
static charge to ground without diminishing the radio energy. Static
electrical charge can build up to high values, even at times of no
thunderstorm activity, when such tall structures are insulated from
ground. Use of this technique provides better lightning protection than
using just a spark gap at the mast feed, as is standard at most mast
radiators insulated against ground."
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_radio_tower

End of discussion.
S*
Good evening Szczepan.

The Warsaw radio mast was not a dipole.

"Large constructed half-wavelength dipole towers include the Warsaw radio
mast - the only half-wave dipole for longwave ever built."

May I remind you that I would appreciate an answer to my question "Are you
discussing resonant or non-resonant aerials, please?". It would help to
clarify what you have in mind,

It seems to me that you do not know what the word "resonans" means.
We are discusing the earth/chassis/ counterpoise and the field electron
emission.

Best Regards,
S*

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

"
"Large constructed half-wavelength dipole towers include the Warsaw radio
mast - the only half-wave dipole for longwave ever built."

May I remind you that I would appreciate an answer to my question "Are
you discussing resonant or non-resonant aerials, please?". It would help
to clarify what you have in mind,

It seems to me that you do not know what the word "resonans" means.
We are discusing the earth/chassis/ counterpoise and the field electron
emission.

Best Regards,
S*
Hello Szczepan.
If you mean the Warsaw radio mast (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_radio_mast ) then you are incorrect. It
was not a dipole. Do you mean another tower which supported a dipole aerial?

I assure you that I do know the meaning of "resonant". I need to know and
understand it in order to match my radio to my aerials.

Kindest regards, Ian.

"Jeff Liebermann" napisal w wiadomosci
...
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 18:49:08 +0200, "Szczepan Bialek"
wrote:

And what do you do with the static build up?
Best Regards,
S*

Use a static electricity dissipator:
https://www.google.com/search?q=static+dissipator&tbm=isch
Commonly found on airplane wing tips, fiberglass hull vessels, and
ungrounded towers prone to lightning hits. A 1M resistor to ground
will discharge any static build up across a base insulated tower.
http://www.lbagroup.com/international/tower-lightning-protection.php
http://www.lpsnet.com/ALS.asp

I'm not sure why you're arguing about grounding antennas. There are
plenty of examples of antennas that operate without a ground. If low
frequencies are your immediate concern, may I point out that DF loop
antennas are very popular on the beacon bands (200-400KHz). They also
work nicely in airplanes, where there's no available earth ground. BCB
is no different. There were plenty of antique home receivers that
used either an internal or external loop (or loopstick) antenna, that
didn't require a ground connection.

If BCB stations decided to use horizontal dipoles instead of vertical
monopoles, a ground would not be needed. The only reason they need a
ground is to act as the counterpoise for the monopole. This provides
the missing 1/4 wave element of the dipole.

I am not arguing. I agree with you that " they need a ground is to act as
the counterpoise for the monopole."
I hope that you agree with me that monopole on the plane/satellite has the
counterpoise in form of chassis.
S*

U¿ytkownik "Howard K0ACF" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
In the statement about AM Broadcasters you state about the ideal ground
system & describe about the Radials but then ask why, That goes to show
you don't know anything about Antennas, Transmitters. Feedlines, Matching,
Efficiency, If you read farther you would have possibly learned something
but you don't want to learn just bother the group. Nowhere in what you
wrote does it state it is for static or what it is for except if you would
read farther it would have told you...What about a balanced antenna, It
has no earth connection & doesn't need one per your earth definition. If
Maxwell was alive today & had read about all the improvements &
discoveries that have been made & are still being made He would say He was
wrong & that the answer to your question is NO.....I see you have started
a new thread called Electron Gun but keep referring back to this thread
for the answer. I'm very sure you know nothing about a electron gun, or a
vacuum tube....To bad you don't know how to read or study & especially
learn about anything...

Is the field electron emission from the tip top of antenna or not?
I "do not know anything about Antennas, Transmitters. Feedlines, Matching,
Efficiency,"
S*

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
I am not arguing. I agree with you that " they need a ground is to act as
the counterpoise for the monopole."
I hope that you agree with me that monopole on the plane/satellite has the
counterpoise in form of chassis.
S*

You claimed that ANY transmitter with ANY antenna ALWAYS needs an
earth connection. That is incorrect. If Marconi claimed that,
Marconi was wrong.

Now you are more and more restricting the playing field by talking
about AM transmitters, monopoles, etc. And by extending your
definition of "an earth connection" to a chassis.

This of course leads to nothing. The original claim is still wrong.

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

U¿ytkownik "Howard K0ACF" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
In the statement about AM Broadcasters you state about the ideal ground
system & describe about the Radials but then ask why, That goes to show
you don't know anything about Antennas, Transmitters. Feedlines, Matching,
Efficiency, If you read farther you would have possibly learned something
but you don't want to learn just bother the group. Nowhere in what you
wrote does it state it is for static or what it is for except if you would
read farther it would have told you...What about a balanced antenna, It
has no earth connection & doesn't need one per your earth definition. If
Maxwell was alive today & had read about all the improvements &
discoveries that have been made & are still being made He would say He was
wrong & that the answer to your question is NO.....I see you have started
a new thread called Electron Gun but keep referring back to this thread
for the answer. I'm very sure you know nothing about a electron gun, or a
vacuum tube....To bad you don't know how to read or study & especially
learn about anything...

Is the field electron emission from the tip top of antenna or not?
I "do not know anything about Antennas, Transmitters. Feedlines, Matching,
Efficiency,"
S*

Not. There is no electron emission from an antenna when operated without
arcing, something that everyone except Tesla wants to avoid at all times.

"Jeff" napisal w wiadomosci
...

And what about your equipment?
Is the earth connection disconnected?
S*



I have no earth connection, so it cannot be connected or disconnected.

Why than: "The ideal ground system forAM broadcasters comprises at least
120
buried copper or phosphor bronze radial wires at least one-quarter
wavelength long and a ground-screen in the immediate vicinity of the
tower.
All the ground system components are bonded together, usually by welding,
brazing or using coin silversolder to help reduce corrosion". From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopole_antenna

Tell them that they are WRONG.
S*



They are not wrong a such; your quote is about "AM broadcasters", which is
normally (and incorrectly) meant to mean 'long & medium Wave'
broadcasters. Because for the long wavelengths involved many such
broadcasters choose to use vertical monopoles for antennas, and for those
monopoles to work efficiently they do indeed require a good ground system.
(These were the systems that Marconi was referring to).

If there is sufficient space a dipole could be used which would *NOT*
require the ground system.

That in Warsaw required the ground system:
""Large constructed half-wavelength dipole towers include the Warsaw radio
mast - the only half-wave dipole for longwave ever built."

S*