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Old April 18th 12, 10:00 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Dec 2008
Posts: 375
Default The earth

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Rob" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...

If it is a dipole, yagi, log-periodic, sturba curtain, rhombic,
parabolic,
helix, loop, cubical quad, on any of many, many more types of antennas
that have no place or need to connect a ground, it would not.

Each of them has the chassis.
S*


So your claim is that it is sufficient to "have the chassis" and that
this chassis does not have to be connected to the earth?

What constitutes "the chassis"?
Do you have any minimum size for the chassis to be a chassis?


See the new topic "Ground".
S*


No I won't. Please stick to the topic and don't run away when you
are caught with a mistake.
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Old April 18th 12, 10:07 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Oct 2009
Posts: 707
Default The earth


"Rob" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Rob" napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...

If it is a dipole, yagi, log-periodic, sturba curtain, rhombic,
parabolic,
helix, loop, cubical quad, on any of many, many more types of antennas
that have no place or need to connect a ground, it would not.

Each of them has the chassis.
S*

So your claim is that it is sufficient to "have the chassis" and that
this chassis does not have to be connected to the earth?

What constitutes "the chassis"?
Do you have any minimum size for the chassis to be a chassis?


See the new topic "Ground".
S*


No I won't. Please stick to the topic and don't run away when you
are caught with a mistake.


Here you a
"". In electronic circuit theory, a "ground" is usually idealized as an
infinite source or sink for charge, which can absorb an unlimited amount of
current without changing its potential. Where a real ground connection has a
significant resistance, the approximation of zero potential is no longer
valid. Stray voltages or earth potential rise effects will occur, which may
create noise in signals or if large enough will produce an electric shock
hazard.
The use of the term ground (or earth) is so common in electrical and
electronics applications that circuits in portable electronic devices such
as cell phones and media players as well as circuits in vehicles such as
ships, aircraft, and spacecraft may be spoken of as having a "ground"
connection without any actual connection to the Earth. This is usually a
large conductor attached to one side of the power supply (such as the
"ground plane" on a printed circuit board) which serves as the common return
path for current from many different components in the circuit." From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)

There is wrote that all of your transmitter have "a "ground" connection
without any actual connection to the Earth."

Each transmitter needs " an infinite source or sink for charge".

The above you know.

But some of you do not know that where the voltage is there is the field
electron emission. So the sink is necessary.

It must not be infinite. "a large conductor" absorb the electrons from the
air. So its size must be adequate to the emission.

Nice Fun.

S*



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Old April 18th 12, 10:19 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Dec 2008
Posts: 375
Default The earth

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Rob" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Rob" napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...

If it is a dipole, yagi, log-periodic, sturba curtain, rhombic,
parabolic,
helix, loop, cubical quad, on any of many, many more types of antennas
that have no place or need to connect a ground, it would not.

Each of them has the chassis.
S*

So your claim is that it is sufficient to "have the chassis" and that
this chassis does not have to be connected to the earth?

What constitutes "the chassis"?
Do you have any minimum size for the chassis to be a chassis?

See the new topic "Ground".
S*


No I won't. Please stick to the topic and don't run away when you
are caught with a mistake.


Here you a
"". In electronic circuit theory, a "ground" is usually idealized as an
infinite source or sink for charge, which can absorb an unlimited amount of
current without changing its potential. Where a real ground connection has a
significant resistance, the approximation of zero potential is no longer
valid. Stray voltages or earth potential rise effects will occur, which may
create noise in signals or if large enough will produce an electric shock
hazard.
The use of the term ground (or earth) is so common in electrical and
electronics applications that circuits in portable electronic devices such
as cell phones and media players as well as circuits in vehicles such as
ships, aircraft, and spacecraft may be spoken of as having a "ground"
connection without any actual connection to the Earth. This is usually a
large conductor attached to one side of the power supply (such as the
"ground plane" on a printed circuit board) which serves as the common return
path for current from many different components in the circuit." From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)

There is wrote that all of your transmitter have "a "ground" connection
without any actual connection to the Earth."

Each transmitter needs " an infinite source or sink for charge".

The above you know.


I know that it is not true.
A transmitter needs no infinite source or sink for charge because it
does not generate any DC current into the antenna.

But some of you do not know that where the voltage is there is the field
electron emission. So the sink is necessary.

It must not be infinite. "a large conductor" absorb the electrons from the
air. So its size must be adequate to the emission.

Nice Fun.

S*


Ok so we can finally rest the case and agree that a connection to
earth is not required for a transmitter, something you have claimed
all the time because Marconi wrote it.
  #4   Report Post  
Old April 18th 12, 05:02 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Oct 2009
Posts: 707
Default The earth


"Rob" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Rob" napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Rob" napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...

If it is a dipole, yagi, log-periodic, sturba curtain, rhombic,
parabolic,
helix, loop, cubical quad, on any of many, many more types of
antennas
that have no place or need to connect a ground, it would not.

Each of them has the chassis.
S*

So your claim is that it is sufficient to "have the chassis" and that
this chassis does not have to be connected to the earth?

What constitutes "the chassis"?
Do you have any minimum size for the chassis to be a chassis?

See the new topic "Ground".
S*

No I won't. Please stick to the topic and don't run away when you
are caught with a mistake.


Here you a
"". In electronic circuit theory, a "ground" is usually idealized as an
infinite source or sink for charge, which can absorb an unlimited amount
of
current without changing its potential. Where a real ground connection
has a
significant resistance, the approximation of zero potential is no longer
valid. Stray voltages or earth potential rise effects will occur, which
may
create noise in signals or if large enough will produce an electric shock
hazard.
The use of the term ground (or earth) is so common in electrical and
electronics applications that circuits in portable electronic devices
such
as cell phones and media players as well as circuits in vehicles such as
ships, aircraft, and spacecraft may be spoken of as having a "ground"
connection without any actual connection to the Earth. This is usually a
large conductor attached to one side of the power supply (such as the
"ground plane" on a printed circuit board) which serves as the common
return
path for current from many different components in the circuit." From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)

There is wrote that all of your transmitter have "a "ground" connection
without any actual connection to the Earth."

Each transmitter needs " an infinite source or sink for charge".

The above you know.


I know that it is not true.
A transmitter needs no infinite source or sink for charge because it
does not generate any DC current into the antenna.


It is true because it generate the oscillatory flow of electrons into the
antenna.
In such case the DC ammeter idicates the current.

But some of you do not know that where the voltage is there is the field
electron emission. So the sink is necessary.

It must not be infinite. "a large conductor" absorb the electrons from
the
air. So its size must be adequate to the emission.


Ok so we can finally rest the case and agree that a connection to
earth is not required for a transmitter, something you have claimed
all the time because Marconi wrote it.


Marconi wrote:
""By "connected to earth" I do not necessarily mean an ordinary metallic
connection as used for ordinary wire telegraphs.
The earth wire may have a condenser in series with it, or it may be
connected to what is really equivalent, a capacity area placed close to the
surface
of the ground (Fig. 4)."

" a capacity area placed close to the surface of the ground" = " large
conductor "

The case will be ready to rest if you admit that Marconi was right in his
Nobel lecture.
S*




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Old April 18th 12, 06:25 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Dec 2008
Posts: 375
Default The earth

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
Each transmitter needs " an infinite source or sink for charge".

The above you know.


I know that it is not true.
A transmitter needs no infinite source or sink for charge because it
does not generate any DC current into the antenna.


It is true because it generate the oscillatory flow of electrons into the
antenna.
In such case the DC ammeter idicates the current.


It is a pity that you don't have a transmitter, or otherwise it would
be easy for you to see for yourself that you are talking nonsense!

There is no DC current from a transmitter into the antenna.

But some of you do not know that where the voltage is there is the field
electron emission. So the sink is necessary.

It must not be infinite. "a large conductor" absorb the electrons from
the
air. So its size must be adequate to the emission.


Ok so we can finally rest the case and agree that a connection to
earth is not required for a transmitter, something you have claimed
all the time because Marconi wrote it.


Marconi wrote:
""By "connected to earth" I do not necessarily mean an ordinary metallic
connection as used for ordinary wire telegraphs.
The earth wire may have a condenser in series with it, or it may be
connected to what is really equivalent, a capacity area placed close to the
surface
of the ground (Fig. 4)."

" a capacity area placed close to the surface of the ground" = " large
conductor "

The case will be ready to rest if you admit that Marconi was right in his
Nobel lecture.
S*


No, he was not right. And you have described yourself what was wrong
in what he wrote.


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Old April 18th 12, 06:26 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,898
Default The earth

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Rob" napisa? w wiadomo?ci
...


snip

I know that it is not true.
A transmitter needs no infinite source or sink for charge because it
does not generate any DC current into the antenna.


It is true because it generate the oscillatory flow of electrons into the
antenna.


Meaningless babble; there is no such thing.

In such case the DC ammeter idicates the current.


What DE ammeter?

Ok so we can finally rest the case and agree that a connection to
earth is not required for a transmitter, something you have claimed
all the time because Marconi wrote it.


Marconi wrote:
""By "connected to earth" I do not necessarily mean an ordinary metallic
connection as used for ordinary wire telegraphs.
The earth wire may have a condenser in series with it, or it may be
connected to what is really equivalent, a capacity area placed close to the
surface
of the ground (Fig. 4)."

" a capacity area placed close to the surface of the ground" = " large
conductor "

The case will be ready to rest if you admit that Marconi was right in his
Nobel lecture.


Marconi was wrong.

Get over it.



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Old April 18th 12, 02:22 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Apr 2012
Posts: 165
Default The earth

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
.. .
Here you a

"". In electronic circuit theory, a "ground" is usually idealized as an
infinite source or sink for charge, which can absorb an unlimited amount
of
current without changing its potential. Where a real ground connection has
a
significant resistance, the approximation of zero potential is no longer
valid. Stray voltages or earth potential rise effects will occur, which
may
create noise in signals or if large enough will produce an electric shock
hazard.
The use of the term ground (or earth) is so common in electrical and
electronics applications that circuits in portable electronic devices such
as cell phones and media players as well as circuits in vehicles such as
ships, aircraft, and spacecraft may be spoken of as having a "ground"
connection without any actual connection to the Earth. This is usually a
large conductor attached to one side of the power supply (such as the
"ground plane" on a printed circuit board) which serves as the common
return
path for current from many different components in the circuit." From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)

S*


Hello again folks.

{I am concerned about Szczepan. He's cut-and-pasting from Wikipedia. Is he
safe with a sharp pair of scissors?}
I'm not sure whether to suggest that he also look at "chassis" and "common
point".
More seriously, I guess this is an example of a common word, "ground",
having more than one technical meaning and this bringing confusion to the
lay person.

I really wish that Szczepan would get hold of a training manual for the
amateur radio licence exams. The usual diagrams would enlighten him.

Kindest regards from a wet UK, Ian.


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Old April 18th 12, 06:24 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,898
Default The earth

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

There is wrote that all of your transmitter have "a "ground" connection
without any actual connection to the Earth."


Nope, you just don't understand what is meant.

Each transmitter needs " an infinite source or sink for charge".


Nope.

The above you know.

But some of you do not know that where the voltage is there is the field
electron emission. So the sink is necessary.


Meaningless babble.

It must not be infinite. "a large conductor" absorb the electrons from the
air. So its size must be adequate to the emission.


More meaningless babble.

Antennas do not have a chassis.

In the days of wired electronics, the chassis was the metal box the equipment
was built in and used as a common return, i.e. what is called ground but
has no relationship to the Earth. By convention it was mearly the common
connection point for the most negative voltage.

In todays world of circuit boards, there is often no chassis.

Most portable equipment these days is a circuit board in a plastic box.

No chassis.

No ground, as in to the Earth, connection.



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Old April 19th 12, 07:47 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Oct 2009
Posts: 707
Default The earth


napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

There is wrote that all of your transmitter have "a "ground" connection
without any actual connection to the Earth."


Nope, you just don't understand what is meant.


In the days of wired electronics, the chassis was the metal box the
equipment
was built in and used as a common return, i.e. what is called ground but
has no relationship to the Earth. By convention it was mearly the common
connection point for the most negative voltage.

In todays world of circuit boards, there is often no chassis.

Most portable equipment these days is a circuit board in a plastic box.


"This is usually a
large conductor attached to one side of the power supply (such as the
"ground plane" on a printed circuit board) "

No chassis.

No ground, as in to the Earth, connection.


The "large conductor" works as the earth.
S*


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Old April 19th 12, 08:17 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Dec 2008
Posts: 375
Default The earth

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

There is wrote that all of your transmitter have "a "ground" connection
without any actual connection to the Earth."


Nope, you just don't understand what is meant.


In the days of wired electronics, the chassis was the metal box the
equipment
was built in and used as a common return, i.e. what is called ground but
has no relationship to the Earth. By convention it was mearly the common
connection point for the most negative voltage.

In todays world of circuit boards, there is often no chassis.

Most portable equipment these days is a circuit board in a plastic box.


"This is usually a
large conductor attached to one side of the power supply (such as the
"ground plane" on a printed circuit board) "

No chassis.

No ground, as in to the Earth, connection.


The "large conductor" works as the earth.
S*


So you agree that a transmitter needs no connection to the earth?


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