On 6/22/2012 10:20 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Sal M. napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...


(Last year, I used a 20m dipole at 30 feet, operating out of my van.
Everything floated above ground without incident and many QSOs.)

I value your opiniion.

In Marconi opinion:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf

"By "connected to earth" I do not necessarily mean an ordinary metallic
connection as used for ordinary wire telegraphs.
The earth wire may have a condenser in series with it, or it may be
connected to what is really equivalent, a capacity area placed close to the
surface
of the ground (Fig. 4).
It is now perfectly well known that a condenser, if large enough, does not
prevent the passage of high frequency oscillations, and therefore in these
cases
the earth is for all practical purposes connected to the antennae."


And Wiki:
"The use of the term ground (or earth) is so common in electrical and
electronics applications that circuits in portable electronic devices such
as cell phones and media players as well as circuits in vehicles such as
ships, aircraft, and spacecraft may be spoken of as having a "ground"
connection without any actual connection to the Earth. This is usually a
large conductor attached to one side of the power supply (such as the
"ground plane" on a printed circuit board) which serves as the common return
path for current from many different components in the circuit." From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)
S*


And he changes his argument again. Because now the electrons cannot
flow to ground. Which blows his whole "antennas radiate electrons"
argument.

Troll or moron? You decide.

tom
K0TAR

"tom" napisal w wiadomosci
. net...
On 6/22/2012 10:20 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Sal M. napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...


(Last year, I used a 20m dipole at 30 feet, operating out of my van.
Everything floated above ground without incident and many QSOs.)

I value your opiniion.

In Marconi opinion:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf

"By "connected to earth" I do not necessarily mean an ordinary metallic
connection as used for ordinary wire telegraphs.
The earth wire may have a condenser in series with it, or it may be
connected to what is really equivalent, a capacity area placed close to
the
surface
of the ground (Fig. 4).
It is now perfectly well known that a condenser, if large enough, does
not
prevent the passage of high frequency oscillations, and therefore in
these
cases
the earth is for all practical purposes connected to the antennae."


And Wiki:
"The use of the term ground (or earth) is so common in electrical and
electronics applications that circuits in portable electronic devices
such
as cell phones and media players as well as circuits in vehicles such as
ships, aircraft, and spacecraft may be spoken of as having a "ground"
connection without any actual connection to the Earth. This is usually a
large conductor attached to one side of the power supply (such as the
"ground plane" on a printed circuit board) which serves as the common
return
path for current from many different components in the circuit." From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)
S*


And he changes his argument again. Because now the electrons cannot flow
to ground. Which blows his whole "antennas radiate electrons" argument.

All time the electrons flow to or from the ground.
"Let me answer some of your questions. Capacitors loose their charge both
through the insulation between the plates and through the air surrounding
the capacitor. The charge is a surplus of electrons on one plate and a
rarefaction of electrons on the other. Where the electrons are compacted
(the negative plate) the electrons tend to push each other off. Where there
is a deficit of electrons (the positive plate) electrons are attracted from
other sources - air, the positive plate. Both of these actions tend to
decrease the potential difference between the plates... to discharge the
capacitor. From: http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasc...0/phy00900.htm


Troll or moron? You decide.

" Variable capacitors with their plates open to the atmosphere were commonly
used in radio tuning circuits."
If you have such try to measure "the Capacitor charge holding" and decide.
S*

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
.. .

All time the electrons flow to or from the ground.
"Let me answer some of your questions. Capacitors loose their charge both
through the insulation between the plates and through the air surrounding
the capacitor. The charge is a surplus of electrons on one plate and a
rarefaction of electrons on the other. Where the electrons are compacted
(the negative plate) the electrons tend to push each other off. Where
there is a deficit of electrons (the positive plate) electrons are
attracted from other sources - air, the positive plate. Both of these
actions tend to decrease the potential difference between the plates... to
discharge the capacitor. From:
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasc...0/phy00900.htm

S*

Let's disregard the spelling error ("loose" and "lose").
The article continues thus:

"How can this be discouraged? There are a number of possibilities, but they
are selectively employed due to practical and economic reasons. Two possible
methods - Increase the distance between the plates or change the material
separating the plates. For instance glass insulators are sometimes used on
very large (tall as a house) capacitors or the capacitor may be packed in
oil. "

Anyone seen a capacitor that is as big as a house?

snip

"Often one wants a capacitor to have the largest possible capacitance. This
is accomplished by making the plates large in area and close together and
filling the space between the plates with an insulator which has a large
dielectric constant. A parallel plate capacitor has a capacitance given by C
= eA/d, where e is the dielectric constant, A is the area of the plates and
d is the separation between the plates. Notice that making the area large
and the separation small makes it easier for a current to flow between the
plates, thereby discharging them. For many purposes the small leakage
current is not a serious problem. Often a large value of capacitance is much
more important than a slow discharge. Notice that even with air between the
plates, cosmic rays will occasionally pass through the capacitor, ionizing
the air and thereby discharging the capacitor slightly."

Note the statement "makes it easier for a current to flow between the
plates". That's "between the plates" and not "flow to earth".

snip

"It is true, most capacitors tend to self-discharge about 50% in something
like 15 minutes."
That's "self-discharge" and not "discharge to earth".

For a detailed discussion of electrons, why not try posting on one
of the Physics or Science newsgroups?

Regards, Ian.

"Ian" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
.. .

All time the electrons flow to or from the ground.

Note the statement "makes it easier for a current to flow between the
plates". That's "between the plates" and not "flow to earth".

The Earth surface works as the plate.

snip

"It is true, most capacitors tend to self-discharge about 50% in something
like 15 minutes."
That's "self-discharge" and not "discharge to earth".

The Earth surface works as the plate.

For a detailed discussion of electrons, why not try posting on one
of the Physics or Science newsgroups?

They know what the electrons are.
S*

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

All time the electrons flow to or from the ground.

Note the statement "makes it easier for a current to flow between the
plates". That's "between the plates" and not "flow to earth".

The Earth surface works as the plate.

snip

"It is true, most capacitors tend to self-discharge about 50% in
something
like 15 minutes."
That's "self-discharge" and not "discharge to earth".

The Earth surface works as the plate.

For a detailed discussion of electrons, why not try posting on one
of the Physics or Science newsgroups?

They know what the electrons are.
S*

Hello Szczepan.

No, the earth doesn't act as a surface of a capacitor. Capacitors will
self-discharge even when they aren't connected to any circuit.

"Ian" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

All time the electrons flow to or from the ground.


Hello Szczepan.

No, the earth doesn't act as a surface of a capacitor. Capacitors will
self-discharge even when they aren't connected to any circuit.

My answer was to Sal. He wrote: "(Last year, I used a 20m dipole at 30
feet, operating out of my van.
Everything floated above ground without incident and many QSOs.)"

The floor of the van is the plate and the surface of the Earth is the second
plate.
S*

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

No, the earth doesn't act as a surface of a capacitor. Capacitors will
self-discharge even when they aren't connected to any circuit.

My answer was to Sal. He wrote: "(Last year, I used a 20m dipole at 30
feet, operating out of my van.
Everything floated above ground without incident and many QSOs.)"

The floor of the van is the plate and the surface of the Earth is the
second plate.
S*

Thanks, Szczepan . That made me smile. I'm sure you will find sites on the
web that will help you to understand capacitors.

Have a nice day. Ian.

On Monday, June 25, 2012 2:23:22 AM UTC-5, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
The floor of the van is the plate and the surface of the Earth is the second
plate.

How about the capacitors and antennas on Voyager I and II which are still operating at the edge of the solar system?
--
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...


"Ian" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

All time the electrons flow to or from the ground.


Hello Szczepan.

No, the earth doesn't act as a surface of a capacitor. Capacitors will
self-discharge even when they aren't connected to any circuit.

# My answer was to Sal. He wrote: "(Last year, I used a 20m dipole at 30
# feet, operating out of my van.
# Everything floated above ground without incident and many QSOs.)"

# The floor of the van is the plate and the surface of the Earth is the
second
# plate.
# S*

Just as a mental exercise, assume that the entire setup...van and antenna,
is transported to a place in space where there is negligible capacitance to
the earth.

Is it your contention that the setup would operate any differently?

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

Hello Szczepan.

No, the earth doesn't act as a surface of a capacitor. Capacitors will
self-discharge even when they aren't connected to any circuit.

My answer was to Sal. He wrote: "(Last year, I used a 20m dipole at 30
feet, operating out of my van.
Everything floated above ground without incident and many QSOs.)"

The floor of the van is the plate and the surface of the Earth is the
second plate.
S*
Hello Szczepan.
Please try to take note of earlier postings. A dipole is a balanced aerial
and works without reference to earth.
Regards, Ian.