"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
.. .

All time the electrons flow to or from the ground.
"Let me answer some of your questions. Capacitors loose their charge both
through the insulation between the plates and through the air surrounding
the capacitor. The charge is a surplus of electrons on one plate and a
rarefaction of electrons on the other. Where the electrons are compacted
(the negative plate) the electrons tend to push each other off. Where
there is a deficit of electrons (the positive plate) electrons are
attracted from other sources - air, the positive plate. Both of these
actions tend to decrease the potential difference between the plates... to
discharge the capacitor. From:
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasc...0/phy00900.htm

S*

Let's disregard the spelling error ("loose" and "lose").
The article continues thus:

"How can this be discouraged? There are a number of possibilities, but they
are selectively employed due to practical and economic reasons. Two possible
methods - Increase the distance between the plates or change the material
separating the plates. For instance glass insulators are sometimes used on
very large (tall as a house) capacitors or the capacitor may be packed in
oil. "

Anyone seen a capacitor that is as big as a house?

snip

"Often one wants a capacitor to have the largest possible capacitance. This
is accomplished by making the plates large in area and close together and
filling the space between the plates with an insulator which has a large
dielectric constant. A parallel plate capacitor has a capacitance given by C
= eA/d, where e is the dielectric constant, A is the area of the plates and
d is the separation between the plates. Notice that making the area large
and the separation small makes it easier for a current to flow between the
plates, thereby discharging them. For many purposes the small leakage
current is not a serious problem. Often a large value of capacitance is much
more important than a slow discharge. Notice that even with air between the
plates, cosmic rays will occasionally pass through the capacitor, ionizing
the air and thereby discharging the capacitor slightly."

Note the statement "makes it easier for a current to flow between the
plates". That's "between the plates" and not "flow to earth".

snip

"It is true, most capacitors tend to self-discharge about 50% in something
like 15 minutes."
That's "self-discharge" and not "discharge to earth".

For a detailed discussion of electrons, why not try posting on one
of the Physics or Science newsgroups?

Regards, Ian.

"Ian" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
.. .

All time the electrons flow to or from the ground.

Note the statement "makes it easier for a current to flow between the
plates". That's "between the plates" and not "flow to earth".

The Earth surface works as the plate.

snip

"It is true, most capacitors tend to self-discharge about 50% in something
like 15 minutes."
That's "self-discharge" and not "discharge to earth".

The Earth surface works as the plate.

For a detailed discussion of electrons, why not try posting on one
of the Physics or Science newsgroups?

They know what the electrons are.
S*

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

All time the electrons flow to or from the ground.

Note the statement "makes it easier for a current to flow between the
plates". That's "between the plates" and not "flow to earth".

The Earth surface works as the plate.

snip

"It is true, most capacitors tend to self-discharge about 50% in
something
like 15 minutes."
That's "self-discharge" and not "discharge to earth".

The Earth surface works as the plate.

For a detailed discussion of electrons, why not try posting on one
of the Physics or Science newsgroups?

They know what the electrons are.
S*

Hello Szczepan.

No, the earth doesn't act as a surface of a capacitor. Capacitors will
self-discharge even when they aren't connected to any circuit.

"Ian" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

All time the electrons flow to or from the ground.


Hello Szczepan.

No, the earth doesn't act as a surface of a capacitor. Capacitors will
self-discharge even when they aren't connected to any circuit.

My answer was to Sal. He wrote: "(Last year, I used a 20m dipole at 30
feet, operating out of my van.
Everything floated above ground without incident and many QSOs.)"

The floor of the van is the plate and the surface of the Earth is the second
plate.
S*

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

No, the earth doesn't act as a surface of a capacitor. Capacitors will
self-discharge even when they aren't connected to any circuit.

My answer was to Sal. He wrote: "(Last year, I used a 20m dipole at 30
feet, operating out of my van.
Everything floated above ground without incident and many QSOs.)"

The floor of the van is the plate and the surface of the Earth is the
second plate.
S*

Thanks, Szczepan . That made me smile. I'm sure you will find sites on the
web that will help you to understand capacitors.

Have a nice day. Ian.

On Monday, June 25, 2012 2:23:22 AM UTC-5, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
The floor of the van is the plate and the surface of the Earth is the second
plate.

How about the capacitors and antennas on Voyager I and II which are still operating at the edge of the solar system?
--
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com

"W5DXP" wrote in message
...
On Monday, June 25, 2012 2:23:22 AM UTC-5, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
The floor of the van is the plate and the surface of the Earth is the
second
plate.

How about the capacitors and antennas on Voyager I and II which are still
operating at the edge of the solar system?
--
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com

Hello Cecil. Do you suppose that we can regard Uranus or Pluto as a
replacement Earth?
Pity they didn't want a volunteer to be the crew of a Voyager. We could have
suggested someone ...

73, Ian.

On 6/25/2012 8:12 AM, W5DXP wrote:
On Monday, June 25, 2012 2:23:22 AM UTC-5, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
The floor of the van is the plate and the surface of the Earth is the second
plate.

How about the capacitors and antennas on Voyager I and II which are still operating at the edge of the solar system?
--
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com

You see the Voyager I and II use their metal structure as one plate of
a capacitor connecting to earth. The space between is the dielectric,
just like the floor of the van. Some day when Voyager I passes another
solar system, The space between earth and Voyager making up the
dielectric will be light years wide. Without earth there could be no
radio communications anywhere else in the universe.

Plato, the Greek scientist stated very clearly that the earth was the
centre of the universe. Cecil, surely you would not presume to question
the works of a great scientist like Plato.

Michael

:-)

"Boomer" napisal w wiadomosci
...
On 6/25/2012 8:12 AM, W5DXP wrote:
On Monday, June 25, 2012 2:23:22 AM UTC-5, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
The floor of the van is the plate and the surface of the Earth is the
second
plate.

How about the capacitors and antennas on Voyager I and II which are still
operating at the edge of the solar system?
--
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com

You see the Voyager I and II use their metal structure as one plate of a
capacitor connecting to earth. The space between is the dielectric,

The dielectric is in the textbooks. In real space is the rare plazma
(conductor).
" Since plasmas contain equal numbers of electrons and ions, they are
electrically neutral overall and thus electric fields play a lesser
dynamical role. Because plasmas are highly conductive, any charge imbalances
are readily neutralised."

"Norwegian explorer and physicist Kristian Birkeland may have been the first
to predict that space is filled with plasma. He wrote in 1913: "It seems to
be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of
space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. We
have assumed that each stellar system in evolutions throws off electric
corpuscles into space. It does not seem unreasonable therefore to think that
the greater part of the material masses in the universe is found, not in the
solar systems or nebulae, but in "empty" space."[1]["
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrophysical_plasma
S*

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...


"Ian" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

All time the electrons flow to or from the ground.


Hello Szczepan.

No, the earth doesn't act as a surface of a capacitor. Capacitors will
self-discharge even when they aren't connected to any circuit.

# My answer was to Sal. He wrote: "(Last year, I used a 20m dipole at 30
# feet, operating out of my van.
# Everything floated above ground without incident and many QSOs.)"

# The floor of the van is the plate and the surface of the Earth is the
second
# plate.
# S*

Just as a mental exercise, assume that the entire setup...van and antenna,
is transported to a place in space where there is negligible capacitance to
the earth.

Is it your contention that the setup would operate any differently?