Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"balun definition
electronics
A transformer connected between a balanced source or load and an unbalanced
source or load. A balanced line has two conductors, with equal currents in
opposite directions. The unbalanced line has just one conductor; the current
in it returns via a common ground or earth path. "

True

The braid of the coax and the radial are connected. They work as the ground
(or counterpoise).

No. There is no radial. There are two poles in a dipole and neither
of them is connected to the braid. It may be that one of them is
connected to the coax center conductor but this depends on the construction
of the balun (and the transformation ratio).

Is the voltage the same as in the live conductor (at the feed points)?

Normally not, in a 1:1 balun.

Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Ian Jackson wrote:


I think we need to avoid Szczepan's black and white (and usually
completely wrong) way of thinking about things. We need to consider
"When does a monopole become a dipole" (or vice versa).

With no actually ground connection, you could have a nominal monopole
with (say) only one radial (eg an extremely badly radiating quarterwave
radial running horizontally at ground level, and a quarterwave radiating
element going vertically (or semi-vertically) upwards. If you then raise
the radial so that it starts to radiate better - or if you raise the
whole antenna system away from the ground - it will then increasingly
become a dipole.

It is always a dipole no matter where it is.

The type of antenna is determined by it's geometry, not it's location
or it's transmission line.

It is the radiation pattern of the antenna that is effected by it's
location.

Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

In message , Szczepan
Bialek writes

"Ian Jackson" napisal w wiadomosci
...
In message , Rob
writes
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Ian Jackson" napisal w
wiadomosci
...

In the past, many amateurs did connect coax directly to a dipole.

And what they do if they have the monopole?

Connect it with coaxial transmission line, idiot.

If the monopole has only one radial it is exactly as the your dipole.
Right?

No. A monopole needs many radials, not one. if it has only one radial
the voltage at the end of the radial is the same as on the monopole,
and the whole thing becomes a dipole.

I think we need to avoid Szczepan's black and white (and usually
completely wrong) way of thinking about things. We need to consider "When
does a monopole become a dipole" (or vice versa).

With no actually ground connection, you could have a nominal monopole with
(say) only one radial (eg an extremely badly radiating quarterwave radial
running horizontally at ground level, and a quarterwave radiating element
going vertically (or semi-vertically) upwards. If you then raise the
radial so that it starts to radiate better - or if you raise the whole
antenna system away from the ground - it will then increasingly become a
dipole.

Real dipole has symmetric voltages not in phase (180).

But what happens if the voltages are not quite absolutely symmetrical?
When does it cease to be a dipole?

Of course, while a monopole with a single ground-level radial (and no
ground connection) would work quite well, it would not be as good as if
you added more (preferably spread out) radials. And the more radials you
add - especially if any overall radiation from the radials is negligible -
makes the antenna system more definitely a monopole than a dipole.

I have found that in Polish description the dipole used by radio-amateurs
consists of the radiator and the counterpoise.

If that is true, then that description is essentially wrong. Maybe it is
a translation problem?

It is explained that it is geometrically symmetric.

That is essentially true. However, what happens if the symmetry is not
quite absolutely perfect? When does it cease to be a dipole?

Does anybody use the real dipole?

I doubt if many who use an antenna which has a radiator and a
counterpoise would think of it as a dipole. However, as I have
suggested, it is all a matter of degree, ie how much radiation comes
from the 'counterpoise'. A counterpoise is really intended to provide an
artificial ground - especially in conditions where it difficult to get a
good ground connection, or where the conductivity of the ground is poor.
Usually, the intention is that a counterpoise does not (or does not need
to) radiate. Multiple counterpoises are effectively radials, which are
definitely not intended to radiate.

If a dipole is fed directly using coax - but without a balun, the
'counterpoise' side of the dipole (the side connected to the coax
screen) radiates considerably. Also, a lot of the current in the
'counterpoise' side flows on the outside of the coax. This means that
the coax itself radiates (even if it perfectly grounded at the
transmitter end). Depending on the particular situation, this may - or
may not - cause problems. To prevent the possibility of problems caused
by radiation from the coax, a balun should be used.
--
Ian

Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

"Ian" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

In Faraday's time the all was measured. The only difference was in the
electrons name. Faraday's name for the electric particle was "nuclei".
S*

Hello Szczepan.
So, if you like old things, are you using a computer from the days of
Faraday?

The same things were done with the paper and pensil.
S*

So they sent emails in the 19th century using paper and pencil?

Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Ian Jackson" napisal w wiadomosci
...

I think we need to avoid Szczepan's black and white (and usually
completely wrong) way of thinking about things. We need to consider "When
does a monopole become a dipole" (or vice versa).

With no actually ground connection, you could have a nominal monopole with
(say) only one radial (eg an extremely badly radiating quarterwave radial
running horizontally at ground level, and a quarterwave radiating element
going vertically (or semi-vertically) upwards. If you then raise the
radial so that it starts to radiate better - or if you raise the whole
antenna system away from the ground - it will then increasingly become a
dipole.

Real dipole has symmetric voltages not in phase (180).

True but totally irrelevant to anything said here.

Of course, while a monopole with a single ground-level radial (and no
ground connection) would work quite well, it would not be as good as if
you added more (preferably spread out) radials. And the more radials you
add - especially if any overall radiation from the radials is negligible -
makes the antenna system more definitely a monopole than a dipole.

I have found that in Polish description the dipole used by radio-amateurs
consists of the radiator and the counterpoise.

The your Polish radio amateurs would be idiots or your understanding of
Polish is just as bad as your understanding of English.

It is explained that it is geometrically symmetric.

Likely about the ONLY thing you have said that is both true and relevant.

Does anybody use the real dipole?

The dipole is likely the most common type of antenna in use at frequencies
above about 2 MHz, so yes, thousands and thousand of people and organizatons
use dipoles.

How many antennas have you built and used?

Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Ian" napisa? w wiadomo?ci
...
"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

In Faraday's time the all was measured. The only difference was in the
electrons name. Faraday's name for the electric particle was "nuclei".
S*

Hello Szczepan.
So, if you like old things, are you using a computer from the days of
Faraday?

The same things were done with the paper and pensil.

The fields, currents, and voltages on an antenna can not be measuered by
paper and pensil (sic) and the methods necessary to calculated their
values didn't exist until Faraday was long dead and only became practical
after computers were invented.

Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Rob" napisa? w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Ian Jackson" napisal w
wiadomosci
...

In the past, many amateurs did connect coax directly to a dipole.

And what they do if they have the monopole?

Connect it with coaxial transmission line, idiot.

If the monopole has only one radial it is exactly as the your dipole.
Right?

No. A monopole needs many radials, not one. if it has only one radial
the voltage at the end of the radial is the same as on the monopole,
and the whole thing becomes a dipole.

"balun definition
electronics
A transformer connected between a balanced source or load and an unbalanced
source or load. A balanced line has two conductors, with equal currents in
opposite directions. The unbalanced line has just one conductor; the current
in it returns via a common ground or earth path. "

Not quite correct, but close enough.

The braid of the coax and the radial are connected. They work as the ground
(or counterpoise).

OK.

Is the voltage the same as in the live conductor (at the feed points)?

Gibberish.

What is a "live conductor"?

Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

In message , Szczepan Bialek
writes

"Rob" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Ian Jackson" napisal w
wiadomosci
...

In the past, many amateurs did connect coax directly to a dipole.

And what they do if they have the monopole?

Connect it with coaxial transmission line, idiot.

If the monopole has only one radial it is exactly as the your dipole.
Right?

No. A monopole needs many radials, not one. if it has only one radial
the voltage at the end of the radial is the same as on the monopole,
and the whole thing becomes a dipole.

"balun definition
electronics
A transformer connected between a balanced source or load and an unbalanced
source or load.

Correct.

A balanced line has two conductors, with equal currents in
opposite directions.

Correct.

The unbalanced line has just one conductor; the current
in it returns via a common ground or earth path. "

Incorrect.

Unbalanced line (ie coax) has two conductors - the inner conductor and
the screen. At RF, the go and return currents flow on the outside if the
inner conductor, and on the inside of the screen. The outside of the
screen should be 'RF dead'. However, when the unbalanced coax is
connected directly to a balanced antenna, a lot of the screen current
flows on the outside of the screen, so the coax becomes part of the
antenna, and radiates.

The braid of the coax and the radial are connected. They work as the ground
(or counterpoise).

A counterpoise (or a system of radials) can provide an artificial
ground. However, an artificial ground is only required for 'one-sided'
monopole types of antennas. A counterpoise is not normally intended to
be a radiator.

The 'counterpoise' side of a dipole - if it is connected directly to the
coax screen - is not RF-dead. It is usually intended to radiate
more-or-less as well as the 'RF-live' side. Unfortunately, some of the
current in the 'counterpoise' side of the dipole flows down the outside
of the coax screen, and this causes the coax to radiate.

Is the voltage the same as in the live conductor (at the feed points)?

Which voltages do you mean?
--
Ian

Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Some 110 responses have been made to the fellow who may, or may not, be in
Poland. This does not count a similar number of messages from the fellow,
as those are blocked.

Why, oh why, do you continue to be the mechanics described so well by Mr.
O'Nella?

Stop feeding the fellow. 73, Mac N8TT
------------------------------------
"Sal M. O'Nella" wrote in message ...

Which is why I made my reference to Allen Funt of "Candid Camera." Funt
created preposterous situations and yet people tried their darndest to make
something real out of it.

I recall a car with no engine whose driver rolled it downhill into a service
station. The driver, Funt's attractive co-host, insisted that she had
driven around town all day and wanted the mechanic to check the car because
it didn't seem to have much power. In a perfect world, when the mechanic
popped the hood, he would have laughed and the "bit" would be spoiled. But
no! He tried eight ways to explain to her that she COULDN'T have been
driving around town. She just sweetly continued the hoax as several other
mechanics came over to check out the action. Classic!

Szczepan is that car with no engine and we are those mechanics. :-)

73,
"Sal"



J. C. Mc Laughlin
Michigan U.S.A.
Home:

Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

J. C. Mc Laughlin wrote:
Some 110 responses have been made to the fellow who may, or may not, be in
Poland. This does not count a similar number of messages from the fellow,
as those are blocked.

Why, oh why, do you continue to be the mechanics described so well by Mr.
O'Nella?

The same reason police chases get high viewership.