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Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
I have a dipole with 134 feet of 20 gauge insulated copper wire. What would happen if I wanted to replace one leg (67 feet) with 18 gauge copper clad insulated steel wire but chose to keep the other leg with the 20 gauge wire?
Tks, Joel |
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Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
"Joel365" wrote in message ... I have a dipole with 134 feet of 20 gauge insulated copper wire. What would happen if I wanted to replace one leg (67 feet) with 18 gauge copper clad insulated steel wire but chose to keep the other leg with the 20 gauge wire? Tks, Joel You probably would not notice anything on 80 meters. It is possiable that the wire not being insulated and a differant size will cause a slight shift in the resonate frequency, but I doubt that you will notice it. It is sort of like having a truck load of bricks. If you add one more brick, there is an effect, just too slight to make any differance. Unless someone told you the brick was added, you would not notice it. |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
"Joel365" wrote in message ... I have a dipole with 134 feet of 20 gauge insulated copper wire. What would happen if I wanted to replace one leg (67 feet) with 18 gauge copper clad insulated steel wire but chose to keep the other leg with the 20 gauge wire? Hi Interesting question. As the others I don't think anything useful will happen. In such cases it is convenient to put the things to their limits. Imagine the diameter of one half is infinite. You now have a quarter wave over a ground plane.A well known case. Impedance is halved . Resonnance is only dependant of the remaining wire and unchanged. Your result should be somewhere between no change and that. Another similar question : Instead of burying lots of radials at the base of a vertical what about digging (or using) a well and having a quarter wave of wire dropped into it ? --- Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net/ - Complaints to --- |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
On Mon, 2 Jul 2012 14:54:38 +0000, Joel365 wrote:
I have a dipole with 134 feet of 20 gauge insulated copper wire. What would happen if I wanted to replace one leg (67 feet) with 18 gauge copper clad insulated steel wire but chose to keep the other leg with the 20 gauge wire? Hair will grow in the palm of your hand. |
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Although the electrons travels on the outside ( skin ) of the wire, the core still plays a part in the equasion because the resistance changes with the materials. |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
On Jul 2, 10:54*am, Joel365 wrote:
I have a dipole with 134 feet of 20 gauge insulated copper wire. *What would happen if I wanted to replace one leg (67 feet) with 18 gauge copper clad insulated steel wire but chose to keep the other leg with the 20 gauge wire? Tks, Joel -- Joel365 Shouldn't make a differance. |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
On Mon, 2 Jul 2012 14:54:38 +0000, Joel365
wrote: I have a dipole with 134 feet of 20 gauge insulated copper wire. What would happen if I wanted to replace one leg (67 feet) with 18 gauge copper clad insulated steel wire but chose to keep the other leg with the 20 gauge wire? No effect. The bandwidth of the antenna is determined by the diameter of the conductor. The wider the conductor, the greater the bandwidth. The difference between 18 and 20AWG is negligible and has no effect. However, 18AWG copper wire is not going to support itself for very long. Copper is soft and breaks easily. The weight of the center balun, plus the coax weight, plus any birds that might roost on the wire, are going to break it. Please consider using heavier gauge wire, copperweld, or at least support the center balun. As I vaguely recall, NEC (National Electrical Code) Section 810 suggests 14AWG minimum for antennas. I'm too lazy to find the chapter and verse. My favorite antenna wire is stainless steel fishing line. Very strong and doesn't rust. The problem is that as soon as I buy a roll, one of the local hams invents an antenna project that consumes the entire roll. http://www.alltackle.com/american_fishing_wire_stainless_steel_trolling_wir e.htm -- # Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060 # 831-336-2558 # http://802.11junk.com # http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
On 7/2/2012 3:08 PM, Allodoxaphobia wrote:
On Mon, 2 Jul 2012 14:54:38 +0000, Joel365 wrote: I have a dipole with 134 feet of 20 gauge insulated copper wire. What would happen if I wanted to replace one leg (67 feet) with 18 gauge copper clad insulated steel wire but chose to keep the other leg with the 20 gauge wire? Hair will grow in the palm of your hand. I'm 70. Hair grows everywhere on me. My barber charges $5 just for an estimate. |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
On 7/2/2012 10:59 PM, John S wrote:
On 7/2/2012 3:08 PM, Allodoxaphobia wrote: On Mon, 2 Jul 2012 14:54:38 +0000, Joel365 wrote: I have a dipole with 134 feet of 20 gauge insulated copper wire. What would happen if I wanted to replace one leg (67 feet) with 18 gauge copper clad insulated steel wire but chose to keep the other leg with the 20 gauge wire? Hair will grow in the palm of your hand. I'm 70. Hair grows everywhere on me. My barber charges $5 just for an estimate. EXCEPT my head! |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
"bilou" napisał w wiadomości ... Imagine the diameter of one half is infinite. You now have a quarter wave over a ground plane.A well known case. Impedance is halved . Resonnance is only dependant of the remaining wire and unchanged. Your result should be somewhere between no change and that. Another similar question : Instead of burying lots of radials at the base of a vertical what about digging (or using) a well and having a quarter wave of wire dropped into it ? A real well in soil will be the perfect infinite source of electrons. The well in a dry rock will be most wrong. The well in the dry rock is used in ULF. But the electrons are pumped from the wet area. S* |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
A real well in soil will be the perfect infinite source of electrons. A source of electrons is not required. Transmitters use AC (alternating current) so there is no net flow of electrons. |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
"Rob" napisał w wiadomości ... Szczepan Bialek wrote: A real well in soil will be the perfect infinite source of electrons. A source of electrons is not required. Transmitters use AC (alternating current) so there is no net flow of electrons. AC is in a transformer. In an antenna is the oscillatory flow of electrons. So there is the net flow of electrons. "It is now known that this device operated by emitting electrons from the single electrode through a combination of field electron emission and thermionic emission.[citation needed] Once liberated, electrons are strongly repelled by the high electric field near the electrode during negative voltage peaks from the oscillating HV output of the Tesla Coil" Do not you know that? S* |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Rob" napisa? w wiadomo?ci ... Szczepan Bialek wrote: A real well in soil will be the perfect infinite source of electrons. A source of electrons is not required. Transmitters use AC (alternating current) so there is no net flow of electrons. AC is in a transformer. In an antenna is the oscillatory flow of electrons. So there is the net flow of electrons. "It is now known that this device operated by emitting electrons from the single electrode through a combination of field electron emission and thermionic emission.[citation needed] Once liberated, electrons are strongly repelled by the high electric field near the electrode during negative voltage peaks from the oscillating HV output of the Tesla Coil" Do not you know that? S* You post nothing but babbling, word salad, nonsense and you are an utter idiot. Do you not know that? |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Rob" napisaÂł w wiadomoÂści ... Szczepan Bialek wrote: A real well in soil will be the perfect infinite source of electrons. A source of electrons is not required. Transmitters use AC (alternating current) so there is no net flow of electrons. AC is in a transformer. In an antenna is the oscillatory flow of electrons. So there is the net flow of electrons. "It is now known that this device operated by emitting electrons from the single electrode through a combination of field electron emission and thermionic emission.[citation needed] Once liberated, electrons are strongly repelled by the high electric field near the electrode during negative voltage peaks from the oscillating HV output of the Tesla Coil" Do not you know that? S* If that were true, there would be a DC current into a transmitting antenna fed only by HF (AC) current. But of course there is no such DC current. If it were there, it would mean there is nonlinearity in the antenna and there would be severe intermodulation. |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
.. . AC is in a transformer. In an antenna is the oscillatory flow of electrons. So there is the net flow of electrons. "It is now known that this device operated by emitting electrons from the single electrode through a combination of field electron emission and thermionic emission.[citation needed] Once liberated, electrons are strongly repelled by the high electric field near the electrode during negative voltage peaks from the oscillating HV output of the Tesla Coil" Do not you know that? S* Szczepan seems to be muddling up valves and aerials. I guess there's no point in trying to explain the difference between the two to him. Didn't he make a similar posting a few months ago? 73, Ian. |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
Ian wrote:
"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message .. . AC is in a transformer. In an antenna is the oscillatory flow of electrons. So there is the net flow of electrons. "It is now known that this device operated by emitting electrons from the single electrode through a combination of field electron emission and thermionic emission.[citation needed] Once liberated, electrons are strongly repelled by the high electric field near the electrode during negative voltage peaks from the oscillating HV output of the Tesla Coil" Do not you know that? S* Szczepan seems to be muddling up valves and aerials. I guess there's no point in trying to explain the difference between the two to him. Didn't he make a similar posting a few months ago? 73, Ian. He has been posting his idiotic crap for years and years both here and in sci.phyics.electromag. No matter what you tell him his response will be a pile of babbling word salad like the above and a reference to something written over a hundred years ago and perhaps a misinterpreted link to a Wiki article about something else that has some similar words in it. References to textbooks mean nothing to him as he believes all "teachers" are in a conspiracy to hide the truth. He thinks Feynman was a "teacher" and not credible. Yeah, Feynman was a teacher like Mozart was a piano player. |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
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Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
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Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
"John S" wrote in message
... On 7/3/2012 1:09 PM, wrote: Then why not just ignore him? We (the group excluding Szczepan) have some good discussions. Szczepan can be amusing in the views he puts forward. I can't work out whether he is trying to tease us or really is confused. I suppose there's also the hope that Szczepan might read and understand the information that some of us are showing him. It's a bit like trying to explain radio to a youngster except that a youngster will listen and learn. Szczepan's idea of using a well to get an infinite supply of electrons made me smile. We've a lot of disused coal pits in my part of England and it would be great to turn them into electron mines. We could dispense with coal fired power stations, wind turbines, solar cells. Not sure if the electrons would be packed in bottles (like water) or in sacks (like coal). 73, Ian. |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
Ian wrote:
"John S" wrote in message ... On 7/3/2012 1:09 PM, wrote: Then why not just ignore him? We (the group excluding Szczepan) have some good discussions. Szczepan can be amusing in the views he puts forward. I can't work out whether he is trying to tease us or really is confused. I suppose there's also the hope that Szczepan might read and understand the information that some of us are showing him. It's a bit like trying to explain radio to a youngster except that a youngster will listen and learn. I think it is not productive to reply to every posting with "you are a babbling idiot". That is not going to convince him that he is, and it just annoys the others. When you ask him real questions, he either does not answer or he digs up some prehistoric finding that may have been accurate at that time, but can easily be disproven today. For example, his theory that an antenna acts like a vacuum diode, emitting electrons during one phase of the HF voltage and not taking them back during the next phase, clearly must be wrong. If it were true, an antenna would be a nonlinear element that would cause intermodulation. As we don't see that happen on a well-designed antenna (it *does* happen when there are bad contacts with diode-effect in the antenna), we know that an antenna by itself cannot be nonlinear and so there cannot be a net flow of electrons. He cannot dispute that so he wanders of in a different direction. |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
"Rob" wrote in message
... I think it is not productive to reply to every posting with "you are a babbling idiot". That is not going to convince him that he is, and it just annoys the others. When you ask him real questions, he either does not answer or he digs up some prehistoric finding that may have been accurate at that time, but can easily be disproven today. For example, his theory that an antenna acts like a vacuum diode, emitting electrons during one phase of the HF voltage and not taking them back during the next phase, clearly must be wrong. If it were true, an antenna would be a nonlinear element that would cause intermodulation. As we don't see that happen on a well-designed antenna (it *does* happen when there are bad contacts with diode-effect in the antenna), we know that an antenna by itself cannot be nonlinear and so there cannot be a net flow of electrons. He cannot dispute that so he wanders of in a different direction. Hello Rob. I can't answer your point about the "babbling idiot" postings as I'm not the one who makes them. Szczepan reminds me of an elderly relative who grew up in the 1920s when electronics was large components on wooden baseboards. They seemed to be developed from mechanical engineering (see if and understand it). It was a challenge to get the relative to understand that any progress had been made since the days of valves. Szczepan seems to have grasped electronics as being the movement of electrons and has muddled that up with air or liquid flow. Initially, I hoped that a polite explanation would help him but after a few weeks I realised that he's not capable of understanding and learning (always assuming that he isn't an Extra Class licensee having a big laugh - which is why I enjoy the humour in his postings). He seems to go around in circles lasting several weeks - I think that the thoughts in some of his recent postings are similar to ones he made a month or more ago. 73, Ian. |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
"Ian" napisał w wiadomości ... Szczepan seems to have grasped electronics as being the movement of electrons and has muddled that up with air or liquid flow. In EM the electricity is like the LIQUID flow ( incompressible and massles). In electronics is GAS flow. Electron gas. Electrons have mass. Do you see the difference between massive GAS and massles LIQUID? S* |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
.. . "Ian" napisał w wiadomości ... Szczepan seems to have grasped electronics as being the movement of electrons and has muddled that up with air or liquid flow. In EM the electricity is like the LIQUID flow ( incompressible and massles). In electronics is GAS flow. Electron gas. Electrons have mass. Do you see the difference between massive GAS and massles LIQUID? S* Szczepan, you say that liquids are massles (I assume that you means massless). This is definitely wrong. Thanks for the laugh. Regards, Ian. |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
"Ian" napisał w wiadomości ... "Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message .. . "Ian" napisał w wiadomości ... Szczepan seems to have grasped electronics as being the movement of electrons and has muddled that up with air or liquid flow. In EM the electricity is like the LIQUID flow ( incompressible and massles). In electronics is GAS flow. Electron gas. Electrons have mass. Do you see the difference between massive GAS and massles LIQUID? S* Szczepan, you say that liquids are massles (I assume that you means massless). This is definitely wrong. Thanks for the laugh. In 1884 Heavisde wrote the EM. He assumed that electricity and magnetism are like the massless liquid. S* |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
... "Ian" napisał w wiadomości ... "Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message .. . "Ian" napisał w wiadomości ... Szczepan seems to have grasped electronics as being the movement of electrons and has muddled that up with air or liquid flow. In EM the electricity is like the LIQUID flow ( incompressible and massles). In electronics is GAS flow. Electron gas. Electrons have mass. Do you see the difference between massive GAS and massles LIQUID? S* Szczepan, you say that liquids are massles (I assume that you means massless). This is definitely wrong. Thanks for the laugh. In 1884 Heavisde wrote the EM. He assumed that electricity and magnetism are like the massless liquid. S* Hello Szczepan. Liquids definitely are not massless. |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
"Rob" napisał w wiadomości ... Ian wrote: "John S" wrote in message ... On 7/3/2012 1:09 PM, wrote: Then why not just ignore him? We (the group excluding Szczepan) have some good discussions. Szczepan can be amusing in the views he puts forward. I can't work out whether he is trying to tease us or really is confused. I suppose there's also the hope that Szczepan might read and understand the information that some of us are showing him. It's a bit like trying to explain radio to a youngster except that a youngster will listen and learn. I think it is not productive to reply to every posting with "you are a babbling idiot". That is not going to convince him that he is, and it just annoys the others. When you ask him real questions, he either does not answer or he digs up some prehistoric finding that may have been accurate at that time, but can easily be disproven today. For example, his theory that an antenna acts like a vacuum diode, emitting electrons during one phase of the HF voltage and not taking them back during the next phase, clearly must be wrong. The antenna always has the counterpoise: "A counterpoise which consists of one or more wires in a network insulated from the ground will often reduce loss resistances which might occur when the quarterwave antenna is connected to poorly conducting earth. The counterpoise in the case of a network of several wires acts as a condenser plate with high capacity to earth, with the result of lower loss in the antenna system; for this reason the counterpoise should be fairly close to the ground. [See Fig. 1.] " From: http://www.antennex.com/shack/Dec06/cps.html Joel dipole has the two legs. One of them is the antenna and the second the counterpoise. If it were true, an antenna would be a nonlinear element that would cause intermodulation. As we don't see that happen on a well-designed antenna (it *does* happen when there are bad contacts with diode-effect in the antenna), we know that an antenna by itself cannot be nonlinear and so there cannot be a net flow of electrons. The net flow of electrons is from the counterpoise to end of antenna. S* |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
"Rob" napisał w wiadomości ... Szczepan Bialek wrote: "Rob" napisa3 w wiadomo?ci ... Szczepan Bialek wrote: A real well in soil will be the perfect infinite source of electrons. A source of electrons is not required. Transmitters use AC (alternating current) so there is no net flow of electrons. AC is in a transformer. In an antenna is the oscillatory flow of electrons. So there is the net flow of electrons. "It is now known that this device operated by emitting electrons from the single electrode through a combination of field electron emission and thermionic emission.[citation needed] Once liberated, electrons are strongly repelled by the high electric field near the electrode during negative voltage peaks from the oscillating HV output of the Tesla Coil" Do not you know that? S* If that were true, there would be a DC current into a transmitting antenna fed only by HF (AC) current. But of course there is no such DC current. If it were there, it would mean there is nonlinearity in the antenna and there would be severe intermodulation. Always is the "DC" (net electron flow) from the counterpoise to end of an antenna. S* |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
If it were true, an antenna would be a nonlinear element that would cause intermodulation. As we don't see that happen on a well-designed antenna (it *does* happen when there are bad contacts with diode-effect in the antenna), we know that an antenna by itself cannot be nonlinear and so there cannot be a net flow of electrons. The net flow of electrons is from the counterpoise to end of antenna. S* How do you explain that there is no intermodulation as a result of the nonlinearity of the antenna that you claim? |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
.. . If that were true, there would be a DC current into a transmitting antenna fed only by HF (AC) current. But of course there is no such DC current. If it were there, it would mean there is nonlinearity in the antenna and there would be severe intermodulation. Always is the "DC" (net electron flow) from the counterpoise to end of an antenna. S* Hello readers. I've had a busy day on the keyboard and my stubby fingers are rather tired. Anyone else want to try to explain to Szczepan the differences between DC and AC. Shall we simply say that DC = direct current and AC = alternating current and there's a big and significant difference between "direct" and "alternating"? How about direct = flat road alternating = road with hills and valleys? I think that Szczepan may understand "flat", "hills" and "valleys" but I wouldn't care to bet on it. Maybe he'll start to quote from National Geographic. Wonder what would happen if he plugged his computer into a DC supply rather than an AC supply? 73, Ian. |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
Always is the "DC" (net electron flow) from the counterpoise to end of an antenna. S* No, there is not and such is easily proved with a simple multimeter. You are a babbling idiot. |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Ian" napisa? w wiadomo?ci ... Szczepan seems to have grasped electronics as being the movement of electrons and has muddled that up with air or liquid flow. In EM the electricity is like the LIQUID flow ( incompressible and massles). In electronics is GAS flow. Electron gas. Electrons have mass. Do you see the difference between massive GAS and massles LIQUID? S* This is just word salad nonsense. There is no such thing as a massles (sic) liquid. You are a babbling idiot. |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
Rob wrote:
Ian wrote: "John S" wrote in message ... On 7/3/2012 1:09 PM, wrote: Then why not just ignore him? We (the group excluding Szczepan) have some good discussions. Szczepan can be amusing in the views he puts forward. I can't work out whether he is trying to tease us or really is confused. I suppose there's also the hope that Szczepan might read and understand the information that some of us are showing him. It's a bit like trying to explain radio to a youngster except that a youngster will listen and learn. I think it is not productive to reply to every posting with "you are a babbling idiot". That is not going to convince him that he is, and it just annoys the others. On the contrary, his history on sci.phyics.elecromag shows if all his posts get the same response from everyone, he at least goes away for a while. It is utterly hopeless to think he can be educated. |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
In 1884 Heavisde wrote the EM. He assumed that electricity and magnetism are like the massless liquid. S* Heavide (sic) didn't "wrote the EM", he speculated about the nature of EM. And in the intervening 128 years everyone but you has come to realize that his speculations were incorrect. You are an ineducable idiot. |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
In 1884... Hey Szczepan, What do you think about the Higgs Boson? It was described in 1964 and found in 2012, so probably after the closing date for new inventions in your book. Does it exist? |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
The antenna always has the counterpoise: This is shown to be incorrect by simple observation. "A counterpoise which consists of one or more wires in a network insulated from the ground will often reduce loss resistances which might occur when the quarterwave antenna is connected to poorly conducting earth. The counterpoise in the case of a network of several wires acts as a condenser plate with high capacity to earth, with the result of lower loss in the antenna system; for this reason the counterpoise should be fairly close to the ground. [See Fig. 1.] " From: http://www.antennex.com/shack/Dec06/cps.html Again, you take a random quote out of context. The quote is talking about end fed vertical antennas, and ONLY end fed vertical antennas. It is NOT true for OTHER types of antennas. Joel dipole has the two legs. One of them is the antenna and the second the counterpoise. Nope, measurment of the voltages, currents, and fields show this to be wrong. The net flow of electrons is from the counterpoise to end of antenna. S* Nope, measurment shows this to be wrong. You are an ineducable idiot. |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
How about Bud Light? Does it approach masslessness? :-)
Irv VE6BP wrote in message ... Szczepan Bialek wrote: "Ian" napisa? w wiadomo?ci ... Szczepan seems to have grasped electronics as being the movement of electrons and has muddled that up with air or liquid flow. In EM the electricity is like the LIQUID flow ( incompressible and massles). In electronics is GAS flow. Electron gas. Electrons have mass. Do you see the difference between massive GAS and massles LIQUID? S* This is just word salad nonsense. There is no such thing as a massles (sic) liquid. You are a babbling idiot. |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
On 7/4/2012 2:20 PM, Irv Finkleman wrote:
How about Bud Light? Does it approach masslessness? :-) Irv VE6BP Look at your (Bud Light) waistline. Is that without mass? |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
The antenna always has the counterpoise: Where is the counterpoise for these antennna: A full wave loop antenna A slot antenna A horn antenna For the purposes of the discussion, each antenna is driven by a small, modular oscillator that has no chassis or metalwork of any kind and is located half way between the Milky Way and the Andromeda Galaxy, i.e. it is about 1,250,000 million light years from anything. |
Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
OK! Nolo contendere!
Beer doesn't make you FAT it makes you LEAN.Against walls, tables, chairs, floors, and other things. Irv VE6BP "John S" wrote in message ... On 7/4/2012 2:20 PM, Irv Finkleman wrote: How about Bud Light? Does it approach masslessness? :-) Irv VE6BP Look at your (Bud Light) waistline. Is that without mass? |
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