"Wayne" wrote in message
...


If you can handle a 30 foot vertical (advertised by MFJ and others) it
might
work well with a good ground.
If the real estate is limited for ground wires, just do the best you can,
and live with it.

If your restrictions do not allow a permanent 30 foot vertical, you might
get permission to tilt it down when not in use.


I have worked a few stations on 20 M that are using a vertical about 43 feet
tall. I think that will exceed the heigth that can be installed at that
location, but if not, something to think about.

If the band is in good shape, it is possiable to work with minimal antennas.
I have worked many mobile stations with the screwdriver antennas on 20
meters and they had very good signals.

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
...


"Wayne" wrote in message
...


If you can handle a 30 foot vertical (advertised by MFJ and others) it
might
work well with a good ground.
If the real estate is limited for ground wires, just do the best you can,
and live with it.

If your restrictions do not allow a permanent 30 foot vertical, you might
get permission to tilt it down when not in use.


# I have worked a few stations on 20 M that are using a vertical about 43
feet
# tall. I think that will exceed the heigth that can be installed at that
# location, but if not, something to think about.

# If the band is in good shape, it is possiable to work with minimal
antennas.
# I have worked many mobile stations with the screwdriver antennas on 20
# meters and they had very good signals.

Yes. I meant 43 feet. That was either a typo or a 75 year old brain fart.

Ralph Mowery wrote:

"Wayne" wrote in message
...


If you can handle a 30 foot vertical (advertised by MFJ and others) it
might
work well with a good ground.
If the real estate is limited for ground wires, just do the best you can,
and live with it.

If your restrictions do not allow a permanent 30 foot vertical, you might
get permission to tilt it down when not in use.


I have worked a few stations on 20 M that are using a vertical about 43 feet
tall. I think that will exceed the heigth that can be installed at that
location, but if not, something to think about.

If the band is in good shape, it is possiable to work with minimal antennas.
I have worked many mobile stations with the screwdriver antennas on 20
meters and they had very good signals.

Hustler

4BTV 20 feet, 40, 20, 15, 10 $159
5BTV 23 feet, 80, 40, 20, 15, 10 $189
6BTV 24 feet, 80, 40, 30, 20, 15, 10 $209

DXEnginerring Tilt Base mounting system: $61 to $106 depending on
frills.

How much for a tower, installation, and antennas?

A 43 foot vertical with an ATU at the base will run 160 to 10 meters.

There is no city in the US that regulates pounding a piece of pipe in
the ground and putting a BTV series antenna on top of it in your back
yard.

Well, I probably shouldn't say "no" given the flakyness of some politicians.


--
Jim Pennino

On Sunday, January 18, 2015 at 8:16:04 PM UTC-6, wrote:
wrote:
On Sunday, January 18, 2015 at 4:08:31 PM UTC-6, Bruno wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jan 2015 21:28:07 +0000, jimp wrote:

Verticals; if you have a lot of area, phased vertical arrays.

Aren't verticals more inclined to generate interference?
BTW, my plot is 120' by 90' so I think an array at HF will be impossible.
The feed point will be pretty much central to the plot, though.

I would probably string up parallel coax fed dipoles and have them at
the low height. IE: 18-20 feet off the ground if that's all you can do.
They will still work fairly well overall. Say if you can stick a short
1-2 ft stub mast on the roof, run dipoles from it, and feed with a single
coax for both bands. Run the legs out to wherever you can tie them off.
IE: trees, or short masts in the back yard/garden, etc.
Won't be a gang buster DX setup, but plenty good enough for general use.
With 40 and 20 dipoles, you would also have 15 meters, running the
40 legs. And you can feed more dipoles from the same coax if you
want more bands.
Using the coax as a feed line, no tuner required and low system losses.
And also no need to worry about laying out radials.

At that height most of the energy goes straight up, so it will be a
NVIS antenna mostly suited for short ranges.


--
Jim Pennino

Sure. But it will still be able to work some DX, particularly on 20m,
and 15m using the 40 legs.
I guess it depends a lot on the type of operating he does.
If he wants general purpose, and maybe more leaning to NVIS for 40m
rag chewing, I'd go the dipole.
If he wants DX over NVIS, he may well be better off with a vertical.
But even a low dipole can be fairly good on the higher bands.
I remember camping once with a 40m dipole about 8-10ft off the ground,
and having no trouble working JA's on 15m using the same low antenna.
For 40m NVIS within 500 miles or so, the low dipole will likely smoke
most verticals.

I've run so many low dipoles, I can't count them all. Never had trouble
operating with any of them. And the setup is fairly simple.
The thing about verticals, they tend to be fairly lackluster for closer
in work on the lower bands. And I work much more rag chew NVIS type stuff
than DX. I'm actually not interested in DX much at all any more.
Been there, done that.. So it's kind of boring to me these days..

I tend to mostly jibber jabber to people I know these days, and work mostly
close in 160/80/40.. Which for my type of operating, the dipoles usually do
a good bit better than the verticals, even if fairly low.

I guess he'll have to decide what he wants to lean to. Whatever he decides
is unlikely to excel at both, and will be a compromise.

"Bruno" wrote in message ...
Hi all,

I've had a planning application for a tower turned down which is a real
pain. My options are now very limited. I'm in a bungalow with a roof apex
height of 18 feet and I'm not allowed to put up anything much above this
roof line it transpires, so inverted vees that need to be mounted high up
at the feed point like G5RVs are not possible for me. My garden
boundaries limit the length of any wire antenna I might wish to put up to
about 120 feet overall. On the plus side, though, the QTH is several
hundred feet ASL close to the top of the hill and am not overshadowed by
any trees or buildings to speak of.
What's my best choice for an HF antenna under these circs? (I mostly do
CW on 20m & 40m, but would like a bit more band choice ideally if poss).
Many thanks.

You will not need a tower, just a pole to support a HEX Beam. It is
basically a 2 element beam and they seem to work very well at heigths of
around 20 feet. Most are from 20 meters up, so a wire dipole for 80 and 40
metes will probably be needed also. A trapped dipole will shorten it up
slightly .

wrote:
On Sunday, January 18, 2015 at 8:16:04 PM UTC-6, wrote:
wrote:
On Sunday, January 18, 2015 at 4:08:31 PM UTC-6, Bruno wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jan 2015 21:28:07 +0000, jimp wrote:

Verticals; if you have a lot of area, phased vertical arrays.

Aren't verticals more inclined to generate interference?
BTW, my plot is 120' by 90' so I think an array at HF will be impossible.
The feed point will be pretty much central to the plot, though.

I would probably string up parallel coax fed dipoles and have them at
the low height. IE: 18-20 feet off the ground if that's all you can do.
They will still work fairly well overall. Say if you can stick a short
1-2 ft stub mast on the roof, run dipoles from it, and feed with a single
coax for both bands. Run the legs out to wherever you can tie them off.
IE: trees, or short masts in the back yard/garden, etc.
Won't be a gang buster DX setup, but plenty good enough for general use.
With 40 and 20 dipoles, you would also have 15 meters, running the
40 legs. And you can feed more dipoles from the same coax if you
want more bands.
Using the coax as a feed line, no tuner required and low system losses.
And also no need to worry about laying out radials.

At that height most of the energy goes straight up, so it will be a
NVIS antenna mostly suited for short ranges.


--
Jim Pennino

Sure. But it will still be able to work some DX, particularly on 20m,
and 15m using the 40 legs.
I guess it depends a lot on the type of operating he does.
If he wants general purpose, and maybe more leaning to NVIS for 40m
rag chewing, I'd go the dipole.
If he wants DX over NVIS, he may well be better off with a vertical.
But even a low dipole can be fairly good on the higher bands.
I remember camping once with a 40m dipole about 8-10ft off the ground,
and having no trouble working JA's on 15m using the same low antenna.
For 40m NVIS within 500 miles or so, the low dipole will likely smoke
most verticals.

Of course it will as all the energy will go straight up while the
vertical main lobe is at about 30 degrees.

The important factor is the height in wavelengths, not feet. As the
height drops below a half wavelength the main lobe goes vertical
on a dipole (or any horizontal antenna) rapidly.

I've run so many low dipoles, I can't count them all. Never had trouble
operating with any of them. And the setup is fairly simple.
The thing about verticals, they tend to be fairly lackluster for closer
in work on the lower bands. And I work much more rag chew NVIS type stuff
than DX. I'm actually not interested in DX much at all any more.
Been there, done that.. So it's kind of boring to me these days..

I tend to mostly jibber jabber to people I know these days, and work mostly
close in 160/80/40.. Which for my type of operating, the dipoles usually do
a good bit better than the verticals, even if fairly low.

I guess he'll have to decide what he wants to lean to. Whatever he decides
is unlikely to excel at both, and will be a compromise.

If local communications is your goal, then an NVIS antenns is what you
want. However as the frequency increases above about 8 MHz the
probablity for success decreases and drops to near zero at 30 MHz. For
20 meters it is a crap shoot with less than good sunspot activity.

I don't really see how a dipole requiring three supports, two at best,
can be considered simpler than a vertical with one support.


--
Jim Pennino

Ralph Mowery wrote:

"Bruno" wrote in message ...
Hi all,

I've had a planning application for a tower turned down which is a real
pain. My options are now very limited. I'm in a bungalow with a roof apex
height of 18 feet and I'm not allowed to put up anything much above this
roof line it transpires, so inverted vees that need to be mounted high up
at the feed point like G5RVs are not possible for me. My garden
boundaries limit the length of any wire antenna I might wish to put up to
about 120 feet overall. On the plus side, though, the QTH is several
hundred feet ASL close to the top of the hill and am not overshadowed by
any trees or buildings to speak of.
What's my best choice for an HF antenna under these circs? (I mostly do
CW on 20m & 40m, but would like a bit more band choice ideally if poss).
Many thanks.

You will not need a tower, just a pole to support a HEX Beam. It is
basically a 2 element beam and they seem to work very well at heigths of
around 20 feet. Most are from 20 meters up, so a wire dipole for 80 and 40
metes will probably be needed also. A trapped dipole will shorten it up
slightly .

20 feet is just a bit less than a half wave at 20 M, so a HEX beam (or any
horizontal antenna) will work fairly well at that height. For the bands
above 20 M you are above a half wave length.

A dipole for 40 or 80 meters at 20 feet will radiate straight up, which
is OK if you are only interested in local communications. FYI miltary
NVIS communications useually takes place on 2-4 MHz at night and 5-7
MHz during the day.

--
Jim Pennino

wrote in message
...

A dipole for 40 or 80 meters at 20 feet will radiate straight up, which
is OK if you are only interested in local communications. FYI miltary
NVIS communications useually takes place on 2-4 MHz at night and 5-7
MHz during the day.

At one house I lived in all I could put up was an 80 meter dipole at just
under 20 feet. The center was supported by two pieces of electrical pvc
type pipe. It had a good signal out to about 300 or so miles, and less at
other distances. Worked fine at the time to talk to some locals to 300
miles in the eairly mornings.

When limiated as to what you can do, just stick up something to start with
and later work on getting something beter.

On 2015-01-18, Bruno wrote:

pain. My options are now very limited. I'm in a bungalow with a roof apex
height of 18 feet and I'm not allowed to put up anything much above this
roof line it transpires, so inverted vees that need to be mounted high up

1. You might want to take a look at Ian Poole's "Practical Wire Antennas". He
is English and quite a few shorter antennas for use in the English back
gardens.

2. Also this might give you some ideas:

http://www.dxzone.com/cgi-bin/dir/jump2.cgi?ID=28612

3. Having given those two, I've been very successful on portable and in
backyard with an end-fed half wave wire. You will need a separate wire for
each band, but the 40m wire (abt 67ft) will work for 20m as well. If you
need 30m, just put up another wire. The reactance of the half wave wires is
about the same (3000-5000 ohms) and can be tuned by any tuner capable of
those impediances. I built (see website in signature block below) a tuner
for half waves which is toroid based and one cap in parallel. You only have
the one cap to tune since about the same reactance for each band. Now the
best part: with end fed half waves you only need about .05 wavelength for
the counterpoise, or about 7ft for 40m. Thin wire will be noticed by no one,
especially if dark in color.

Hope these suggestions help.

....Edwin
__________________________________________________ __________
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes
turned skyward, for there you have been, there you long to
return."-da Vinci http://www.kd5zlb.org

wrote in message ...

Ralph Mowery wrote:

"Wayne" wrote in message
...


If you can handle a 30 foot vertical (advertised by MFJ and others) it
might
work well with a good ground.
If the real estate is limited for ground wires, just do the best you can,
and live with it.

If your restrictions do not allow a permanent 30 foot vertical, you might
get permission to tilt it down when not in use.


I have worked a few stations on 20 M that are using a vertical about 43
feet
tall. I think that will exceed the heigth that can be installed at that
location, but if not, something to think about.

If the band is in good shape, it is possiable to work with minimal
antennas.
I have worked many mobile stations with the screwdriver antennas on 20
meters and they had very good signals.

# Hustler

# 4BTV 20 feet, 40, 20, 15, 10 $159
# 5BTV 23 feet, 80, 40, 20, 15, 10 $189
# 6BTV 24 feet, 80, 40, 30, 20, 15, 10 $209

# DXEnginerring Tilt Base mounting system: $61 to $106 depending on
# frills.

# How much for a tower, installation, and antennas?

# A 43 foot vertical with an ATU at the base will run 160 to 10 meters.

# There is no city in the US that regulates pounding a piece of pipe in
# the ground and putting a BTV series antenna on top of it in your back
# yard.

# Well, I probably shouldn't say "no" given the flakyness of some
politicians.

My particular "regulations" were not by the city, but by deed restrictions
not specifically listed on the deed, but on a document filed with the city
that was referenced in the deed as being related to water, electric and
sewer easements.

I don't live in that city any more, and my current limitations have to do
with a very small yard, and very short trees.