Hi all,

I've had a planning application for a tower turned down which is a real
pain. My options are now very limited. I'm in a bungalow with a roof apex
height of 18 feet and I'm not allowed to put up anything much above this
roof line it transpires, so inverted vees that need to be mounted high up
at the feed point like G5RVs are not possible for me. My garden
boundaries limit the length of any wire antenna I might wish to put up to
about 120 feet overall. On the plus side, though, the QTH is several
hundred feet ASL close to the top of the hill and am not overshadowed by
any trees or buildings to speak of.
What's my best choice for an HF antenna under these circs? (I mostly do
CW on 20m & 40m, but would like a bit more band choice ideally if poss).
Many thanks.

Many thanks.

Bruno wrote:
Hi all,

I've had a planning application for a tower turned down which is a real
pain. My options are now very limited. I'm in a bungalow with a roof apex
height of 18 feet and I'm not allowed to put up anything much above this
roof line it transpires, so inverted vees that need to be mounted high up
at the feed point like G5RVs are not possible for me. My garden
boundaries limit the length of any wire antenna I might wish to put up to
about 120 feet overall. On the plus side, though, the QTH is several
hundred feet ASL close to the top of the hill and am not overshadowed by
any trees or buildings to speak of.
What's my best choice for an HF antenna under these circs? (I mostly do
CW on 20m & 40m, but would like a bit more band choice ideally if poss).
Many thanks.

Many thanks.

Verticals; if you have a lot of area, phased vertical arrays.


--
Jim Pennino

On Sun, 18 Jan 2015 21:28:07 +0000, jimp wrote:

Verticals; if you have a lot of area, phased vertical arrays.

Aren't verticals more inclined to generate interference?
BTW, my plot is 120' by 90' so I think an array at HF will be impossible.
The feed point will be pretty much central to the plot, though.

Bruno wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jan 2015 21:28:07 +0000, jimp wrote:

Verticals; if you have a lot of area, phased vertical arrays.

Aren't verticals more inclined to generate interference?

No.

BTW, my plot is 120' by 90' so I think an array at HF will be impossible.
The feed point will be pretty much central to the plot, though.

A 40M four square would be a push, but a 20M a slam dunk.

DXEngineering has a lot of stuff and info for building various vertical
arrays with phased feeding.

The simplest array is 3 verticals about .23 lambda tall spaced at about
..34 lambda with just the center one fed.

With the other two undrounded, you get a typical, omnidirectional vertical
pattern.

If you ground the outer two (think remote relays) you get a broadside
pattern like a dipole with about 3.5 dBi gain.

Of course your ground will make a difference and likely the more radials
you can bury the better it will be unless you live in a swamp.

Verticals want a good ground, horizontals want a better than .5 lambda
height.



--
Jim Pennino

On Sunday, January 18, 2015 at 4:08:31 PM UTC-6, Bruno wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jan 2015 21:28:07 +0000, jimp wrote:

Verticals; if you have a lot of area, phased vertical arrays.

Aren't verticals more inclined to generate interference?
BTW, my plot is 120' by 90' so I think an array at HF will be impossible.
The feed point will be pretty much central to the plot, though.

I would probably string up parallel coax fed dipoles and have them at
the low height. IE: 18-20 feet off the ground if that's all you can do.
They will still work fairly well overall. Say if you can stick a short
1-2 ft stub mast on the roof, run dipoles from it, and feed with a single
coax for both bands. Run the legs out to wherever you can tie them off.
IE: trees, or short masts in the back yard/garden, etc.
Won't be a gang buster DX setup, but plenty good enough for general use.
With 40 and 20 dipoles, you would also have 15 meters, running the
40 legs. And you can feed more dipoles from the same coax if you
want more bands.
Using the coax as a feed line, no tuner required and low system losses.
And also no need to worry about laying out radials.

wrote:
On Sunday, January 18, 2015 at 4:08:31 PM UTC-6, Bruno wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jan 2015 21:28:07 +0000, jimp wrote:

Verticals; if you have a lot of area, phased vertical arrays.

Aren't verticals more inclined to generate interference?
BTW, my plot is 120' by 90' so I think an array at HF will be impossible.
The feed point will be pretty much central to the plot, though.

I would probably string up parallel coax fed dipoles and have them at
the low height. IE: 18-20 feet off the ground if that's all you can do.
They will still work fairly well overall. Say if you can stick a short
1-2 ft stub mast on the roof, run dipoles from it, and feed with a single
coax for both bands. Run the legs out to wherever you can tie them off.
IE: trees, or short masts in the back yard/garden, etc.
Won't be a gang buster DX setup, but plenty good enough for general use.
With 40 and 20 dipoles, you would also have 15 meters, running the
40 legs. And you can feed more dipoles from the same coax if you
want more bands.
Using the coax as a feed line, no tuner required and low system losses.
And also no need to worry about laying out radials.

At that height most of the energy goes straight up, so it will be a
NVIS antenna mostly suited for short ranges.


--
Jim Pennino

On Sunday, January 18, 2015 at 8:16:04 PM UTC-6, wrote:
wrote:
On Sunday, January 18, 2015 at 4:08:31 PM UTC-6, Bruno wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jan 2015 21:28:07 +0000, jimp wrote:

Verticals; if you have a lot of area, phased vertical arrays.

Aren't verticals more inclined to generate interference?
BTW, my plot is 120' by 90' so I think an array at HF will be impossible.
The feed point will be pretty much central to the plot, though.

I would probably string up parallel coax fed dipoles and have them at
the low height. IE: 18-20 feet off the ground if that's all you can do.
They will still work fairly well overall. Say if you can stick a short
1-2 ft stub mast on the roof, run dipoles from it, and feed with a single
coax for both bands. Run the legs out to wherever you can tie them off.
IE: trees, or short masts in the back yard/garden, etc.
Won't be a gang buster DX setup, but plenty good enough for general use.
With 40 and 20 dipoles, you would also have 15 meters, running the
40 legs. And you can feed more dipoles from the same coax if you
want more bands.
Using the coax as a feed line, no tuner required and low system losses.
And also no need to worry about laying out radials.

At that height most of the energy goes straight up, so it will be a
NVIS antenna mostly suited for short ranges.


--
Jim Pennino

Sure. But it will still be able to work some DX, particularly on 20m,
and 15m using the 40 legs.
I guess it depends a lot on the type of operating he does.
If he wants general purpose, and maybe more leaning to NVIS for 40m
rag chewing, I'd go the dipole.
If he wants DX over NVIS, he may well be better off with a vertical.
But even a low dipole can be fairly good on the higher bands.
I remember camping once with a 40m dipole about 8-10ft off the ground,
and having no trouble working JA's on 15m using the same low antenna.
For 40m NVIS within 500 miles or so, the low dipole will likely smoke
most verticals.

I've run so many low dipoles, I can't count them all. Never had trouble
operating with any of them. And the setup is fairly simple.
The thing about verticals, they tend to be fairly lackluster for closer
in work on the lower bands. And I work much more rag chew NVIS type stuff
than DX. I'm actually not interested in DX much at all any more.
Been there, done that.. So it's kind of boring to me these days..

I tend to mostly jibber jabber to people I know these days, and work mostly
close in 160/80/40.. Which for my type of operating, the dipoles usually do
a good bit better than the verticals, even if fairly low.

I guess he'll have to decide what he wants to lean to. Whatever he decides
is unlikely to excel at both, and will be a compromise.

"Bruno" wrote in message ...
Hi all,

I've had a planning application for a tower turned down which is a real
pain. My options are now very limited. I'm in a bungalow with a roof apex
height of 18 feet and I'm not allowed to put up anything much above this
roof line it transpires, so inverted vees that need to be mounted high up
at the feed point like G5RVs are not possible for me. My garden
boundaries limit the length of any wire antenna I might wish to put up to
about 120 feet overall. On the plus side, though, the QTH is several
hundred feet ASL close to the top of the hill and am not overshadowed by
any trees or buildings to speak of.
What's my best choice for an HF antenna under these circs? (I mostly do
CW on 20m & 40m, but would like a bit more band choice ideally if poss).
Many thanks.

You may want to put up an off center fed antenna. Good for most all bands
except 15 meters. Whatever, stick up something and get on the air. While
it might not be the best, anything to get on the air with to start and later
you can refine the antenna system for what you have.

If you do put up a vertical, most of them will need to have radials burried
just under the ground.

The main thing is not to overthink things to start with. Start simple, get
on the air and if it doesn't work well, put something else up when you have
time.

There was something in QST magazine a few months ago. They were vertical
loops. I tried them for the 18 and 24 mhz band, but they did not work
nearly as well as my OCF and dipoles cut for those bands. I have a coax
switch so I could switch the antenas in just a fraction of a second.
However the other antennas are at 50 feet high on the ends and the loop was
only about 5 feet off the ground at the bottom.

Ralph Mowery wrote:

snip

There was something in QST magazine a few months ago. They were vertical
loops. I tried them for the 18 and 24 mhz band, but they did not work
nearly as well as my OCF and dipoles cut for those bands. I have a coax
switch so I could switch the antenas in just a fraction of a second.
However the other antennas are at 50 feet high on the ends and the loop was
only about 5 feet off the ground at the bottom.

In my adventures of modeling loops close to ground, I've found them lacking
except in the case of the hentenna; They work very well as close as one
foot to the ground.

A 17M hentanna is going to be a bit tall though.



--
Jim Pennino

Bruno wrote:
Hi all,

I've had a planning application for a tower turned down which is a real
pain. My options are now very limited. I'm in a bungalow with a roof apex
height of 18 feet and I'm not allowed to put up anything much above this
roof line it transpires, so inverted vees that need to be mounted high up
at the feed point like G5RVs are not possible for me. My garden
boundaries limit the length of any wire antenna I might wish to put up to
about 120 feet overall. On the plus side, though, the QTH is several
hundred feet ASL close to the top of the hill and am not overshadowed by
any trees or buildings to speak of.
What's my best choice for an HF antenna under these circs? (I mostly do
CW on 20m & 40m, but would like a bit more band choice ideally if poss).
Many thanks.

Many thanks.


I think Ralph Mowery is right -- get on the air with almost anything you
canfind including just a hunk of wire, and while you are having the fun
of operating you can decide on something that meets your desires.
Radiating comes first -- the rest later!

Irv VE6BP
RADIATE OR DIE TRYING!