Battery question???
 

On 6/13/2015 10:05 PM, rickman wrote:
On 6/13/2015 9:04 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 6/13/2015 8:26 PM, rickman wrote:
On 6/13/2015 8:20 PM, Irv Finkleman VE6BP wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 6/13/2015 12:43 PM, highlandham wrote:
On 12/06/15 20:26, Dave Platt wrote:
My understanding is that the sensor in the CO detectors, being
chemically based, does have a limited lifetime. As of 2009, ANSI/UL
specs require that such alarms begin chirping an "end of lifetime"
signal after 5 years of operation... and a couple of weeks after
this,
you can no longer turn off the chirp.
==============================
Perhaps OK for CO detectors , but Americium type smoke detectors
have a
very long life ; the ones in my house still work well (tested with
smoke) after 22 years, cleaned with a vacuum cleaner,every 2 years.

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH in IO87AT

But do they work WITHIN SPECS? A simple smoke test does not tell
that.

A smoke detector is not an on/off switch. It is built to trigger on a
certain level of smoke. Both too sensitive and not sensitive
enough are
problematic.

I would NOT risk my family's lives on a 22 year old smoke detector!


A 'highland' ham -- sounds scottish to me and that would explain
the 22 years! :-)

What spec would that be? Do brand new units work to this nebulous spec?
If you can't test it, then why swap one untested unit for another
untested unit?


UL specs. And yes, brand new units must work within the stated
specifications, or they would not get UL certified. And it's why they
have limited lifetimes.

But then, like Irv, you can risk your family's life on an old, probably
not working right, smoke detector.

You are so weird.


You are so stoopid. No wonder you don't use your real name. You aren't
even a ham.

BTW - why doesn't UMD have any record of the MSEE you claim to have
gotten from them in 1982?

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

Battery question???
 

On 6/13/2015 9:28 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 13 Jun 2015 20:26:02 -0400, rickman wrote:

What spec would that be? Do brand new units work to this nebulous spec?

The performance specs are in UL 217.
http://ul.com/code-authorities/fire-code/smoke-alarms-and-smoke-detectors/
I couldn't find a current copy online. The best I can do is a 22 year
old copy. Obviously, things have changed but it's still interesting
reading. Section 38 starts the sensitivity testing section.
ftp://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/ibr/006/ul.217.1993.pdf

Installation requirements and testing are under NFPA 72.
http://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/document-information-pages?mode=code&code=72&tab=questions
You should be able to read NPFA-72 for free.

If you can't test it, then why swap one untested unit for another
untested unit?

Dunno.


A better question would be - If you can't test it, then why swap one
untested unit for one which is certified according to UL standards?

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

Battery question???
 

"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message ...


===============================================
I agree in principle. However, this past Wednesday, we cooked
hamburgers in the kitchen. One of two side-by-side smoke detectors in
the hallway (~20 ft) went to alarm. The one that didn't alarm is three
years old. The one that did alarm was bought in 1978. I remember the
year because I bought it for my barracks room while I was still in the
Navy. 37 years and still kicking. I buy it a new battery every year on
my birthday -- sort of a reverse present.

Based on failure data, an 8 - 10 year replacement cycle may be advisable
but they do last longer.

"Sal"
(KD6VKW)

Which proves it needs replacement. It's calibration is off. False
alarms are almost as bad as missing real alarms.

It's not a matter of them working or not - it's a matter of them working
*correctly* or not. This means not only sounding when there is a fire,
but *not sounding* when there is *no fire*.
================================================== ========
That old detector always was that sensitive. Burnt bacon and burnt toast
always have set it off, too.

I guess I need to move it further from the kitchen.

"Sal"

Battery question???
 

On 6/14/2015 2:10 AM, Sal M. O'Nella wrote:


"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message ...


===============================================
I agree in principle. However, this past Wednesday, we cooked
hamburgers in the kitchen. One of two side-by-side smoke detectors in
the hallway (~20 ft) went to alarm. The one that didn't alarm is three
years old. The one that did alarm was bought in 1978. I remember the
year because I bought it for my barracks room while I was still in the
Navy. 37 years and still kicking. I buy it a new battery every year on
my birthday -- sort of a reverse present.

Based on failure data, an 8 - 10 year replacement cycle may be advisable
but they do last longer.

"Sal"
(KD6VKW)

Which proves it needs replacement. It's calibration is off. False
alarms are almost as bad as missing real alarms.

It's not a matter of them working or not - it's a matter of them working
*correctly* or not. This means not only sounding when there is a fire,
but *not sounding* when there is *no fire*.
================================================== ========
That old detector always was that sensitive. Burnt bacon and burnt
toast always have set it off, too.

I guess I need to move it further from the kitchen.

Don't worry about Jerry. He is always like that. Once he takes a
position he will defend it to the bitter end no matter how much you
prove him wrong.

--

Rick

Battery question???
 

On 14/06/15 00:57, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 6/13/2015 12:43 PM, highlandham wrote:
On 12/06/15 20:26, Dave Platt wrote:
My understanding is that the sensor in the CO detectors, being
chemically based, does have a limited lifetime. As of 2009, ANSI/UL
specs require that such alarms begin chirping an "end of lifetime"
signal after 5 years of operation... and a couple of weeks after this,
you can no longer turn off the chirp.
==============================
Perhaps OK for CO detectors , but Americium type smoke detectors have a
very long life ; the ones in my house still work well (tested with
smoke) after 22 years, cleaned with a vacuum cleaner,every 2 years.

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH in IO87AT

But do they work WITHIN SPECS? A simple smoke test does not tell that.

A smoke detector is not an on/off switch. It is built to trigger on a
certain level of smoke. Both too sensitive and not sensitive enough are
problematic.

I would NOT risk my family's lives on a 22 year old smoke detector!

=======
The smoke detector fitted in the corridor next to our kitchen ,after 22
years, still responds to the ionised vapours (invisible and hardly
smelled) from the gas cooker when cooking/frying food.
Whatever the specification I consider the device and 2 others ,fitted
near the bedrooms and utility room still performing as intended.
All are battery operated (PP3-9V) . When batteries nearing end of life
the devices bleep at decreasing time intervals, such that they will be
replaced.

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH in IO87AT

Battery question???
 

On 14/06/15 01:20, Irv Finkleman VE6BP wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 6/13/2015 12:43 PM, highlandham wrote:
On 12/06/15 20:26, Dave Platt wrote:
My understanding is that the sensor in the CO detectors, being
chemically based, does have a limited lifetime. As of 2009, ANSI/UL
specs require that such alarms begin chirping an "end of lifetime"
signal after 5 years of operation... and a couple of weeks after this,
you can no longer turn off the chirp.
==============================
Perhaps OK for CO detectors , but Americium type smoke detectors have a
very long life ; the ones in my house still work well (tested with
smoke) after 22 years, cleaned with a vacuum cleaner,every 2 years.

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH in IO87AT

But do they work WITHIN SPECS? A simple smoke test does not tell that.

A smoke detector is not an on/off switch. It is built to trigger on a
certain level of smoke. Both too sensitive and not sensitive enough are
problematic.

I would NOT risk my family's lives on a 22 year old smoke detector!


A 'highland' ham -- sounds scottish to me and that would explain
the 22 years! :-)

de Irv VE6BP
=======
Thank you Irv for the compliment.

BTW ,not Scottish but originally from PA-land

Frank , GM0CSZ / KN6WH

Battery question???
 

On 14/06/15 01:26, rickman wrote:
On 6/13/2015 8:20 PM, Irv Finkleman VE6BP wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 6/13/2015 12:43 PM, highlandham wrote:
On 12/06/15 20:26, Dave Platt wrote:
My understanding is that the sensor in the CO detectors, being
chemically based, does have a limited lifetime. As of 2009, ANSI/UL
specs require that such alarms begin chirping an "end of lifetime"
signal after 5 years of operation... and a couple of weeks after this,
you can no longer turn off the chirp.
==============================
Perhaps OK for CO detectors , but Americium type smoke detectors have a
very long life ; the ones in my house still work well (tested with
smoke) after 22 years, cleaned with a vacuum cleaner,every 2 years.

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH in IO87AT

But do they work WITHIN SPECS? A simple smoke test does not tell that.

A smoke detector is not an on/off switch. It is built to trigger on a
certain level of smoke. Both too sensitive and not sensitive enough are
problematic.

I would NOT risk my family's lives on a 22 year old smoke detector!


A 'highland' ham -- sounds scottish to me and that would explain
the 22 years! :-)

What spec would that be? Do brand new units work to this nebulous spec?
If you can't test it, then why swap one untested unit for another
untested unit?

========
Precisely !

Frank , GM0CSZ / KN6WH in IO87AT

Battery question???
 

highlandham wrote:
The smoke detector fitted in the corridor next to our kitchen ,after 22
years, still responds to the ionised vapours (invisible and hardly
smelled) from the gas cooker when cooking/frying food.
Whatever the specification I consider the device and 2 others ,fitted
near the bedrooms and utility room still performing as intended.
All are battery operated (PP3-9V) . When batteries nearing end of life
the devices bleep at decreasing time intervals, such that they will be
replaced.

Those are probably still the ones with a radioactive source that are
now illegal to sell for consumer use. In my experience they cause fewer
false alarms than the newer types that use an optical principle and
probably temperature as well.

It has happened here that a newer detector issued a false alarm on a
hot day. I arrived home and heard it beep when arriving (before opening
the door). That is scary!
It was at least 35 degrees C in the house, but to me that is not a reason
for triggering a fire alarm.
It also happened on other occasions, but fortunately only when I was
at home, and during the day.

The radioactive ones never do that. Indeed they sometimes trigger
when frying food, but to me that is an indication they actually work.
The optical one has never actually detected something. Useless.

Battery question???
 

On 6/14/2015 2:28 AM, rickman wrote:
On 6/14/2015 2:10 AM, Sal M. O'Nella wrote:


"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message ...


===============================================
I agree in principle. However, this past Wednesday, we cooked
hamburgers in the kitchen. One of two side-by-side smoke detectors in
the hallway (~20 ft) went to alarm. The one that didn't alarm is three
years old. The one that did alarm was bought in 1978. I remember the
year because I bought it for my barracks room while I was still in the
Navy. 37 years and still kicking. I buy it a new battery every year on
my birthday -- sort of a reverse present.

Based on failure data, an 8 - 10 year replacement cycle may be advisable
but they do last longer.

"Sal"
(KD6VKW)

Which proves it needs replacement. It's calibration is off. False
alarms are almost as bad as missing real alarms.

It's not a matter of them working or not - it's a matter of them working
*correctly* or not. This means not only sounding when there is a fire,
but *not sounding* when there is *no fire*.
================================================== ========
That old detector always was that sensitive. Burnt bacon and burnt
toast always have set it off, too.

I guess I need to move it further from the kitchen.

Don't worry about Jerry. He is always like that. Once he takes a
position he will defend it to the bitter end no matter how much you
prove him wrong.


You would you know? You've never proven ANYONE wrong. Lots of other
people have proven YOU wrong, though - even though you never admit it.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

Battery question???
 

On 6/14/2015 7:25 AM, highlandham wrote:
On 14/06/15 00:57, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 6/13/2015 12:43 PM, highlandham wrote:
On 12/06/15 20:26, Dave Platt wrote:
My understanding is that the sensor in the CO detectors, being
chemically based, does have a limited lifetime. As of 2009, ANSI/UL
specs require that such alarms begin chirping an "end of lifetime"
signal after 5 years of operation... and a couple of weeks after this,
you can no longer turn off the chirp.
==============================
Perhaps OK for CO detectors , but Americium type smoke detectors have a
very long life ; the ones in my house still work well (tested with
smoke) after 22 years, cleaned with a vacuum cleaner,every 2 years.

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH in IO87AT

But do they work WITHIN SPECS? A simple smoke test does not tell that.

A smoke detector is not an on/off switch. It is built to trigger on a
certain level of smoke. Both too sensitive and not sensitive enough are
problematic.

I would NOT risk my family's lives on a 22 year old smoke detector!

=======
The smoke detector fitted in the corridor next to our kitchen ,after 22
years, still responds to the ionised vapours (invisible and hardly
smelled) from the gas cooker when cooking/frying food.
Whatever the specification I consider the device and 2 others ,fitted
near the bedrooms and utility room still performing as intended.
All are battery operated (PP3-9V) . When batteries nearing end of life
the devices bleep at decreasing time intervals, such that they will be
replaced.

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH in IO87AT

And, of course, you know that ionization detectors are not recommended.
Testing by independent labs show that a photoelectric detector will
detect most fires within a minute, while ionization detectors can take
over 50 minutes to detect the same fire.

Virtually every month the fire-related newsletters have stories of
families injured or killed in fires due to old fire detectors. But once
again, it's your family. Mine is worth a couple of $50 detectors every
few years.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle

==================