On Thu, 11 Jun 2015 08:31:19 -0400, "Tom" wrote:

So the chap at the C.T. store tells me this new battery will last decades
and wont de-sulfate (which is the reason most deep cycle batteries die).
http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/gr...l#.VXl-mlJ_9Cg

I think you mean "won't sulfate".

Hint. Find out how much the battery weighs. Presumably both the old
and this battery are both the same size. If you find that one is
substantially lighter, you're getting ripped off for that much in
lead. In general, the more lead, the better the battery.

With all due respect, I don't think you read or understood much of
what people have advised you to do. You also failed to disclose how
you are using this battery, which prevents selecting an appropriate
battery. I think you should reconsider your purchase of what looks
like a marine/RV engine starting motor and possibly ask your well
informed salesman how a magic sock is suppose to prevent battery
damage. I'll try again, although it's probably futile.

Sulfation is a normal part of the charge/discharge cycle of a battery.
When a battery is discharged, it produces lead sulfate on the plates:
http://www.progressivedyn.com/battery_basics.html
"This chemical reaction also begins to coat both positive
and negative plates with a substance called lead sulfate
also known as sulfation (shown as a yellow build-up on plates).
This build-up of lead sulfate is normal during a discharge cycle.
As the battery continues to discharge, lead sulfate coats more
and more of the plates and battery voltage begins to decrease
from fully charged state of 12.6-volts..."
Got it? Lead sulfate production is a normal part of battery
operation.

Where you get into trouble is when the lead sulfate crystalizes.
Amorphous lead sulfate is rather soft and is easily dissolved back
into solution during recharge. Crystaline lead sulfate is more like a
rock and just sits there. As more and more of the plates are coated
with the crystaline form of lead sulfate, less and less lead plate
surface area is exposed, causing a reduction in battery capacity. In
other words, you're not trying to prevent suflation. You're trying to
prevent lead sulfate crystalization. I would be interested in how a
sock can do that.

In my never humble opinion, the best way to prevent crystalization is
to not leave the battery in a discharged condition for very long. Deep
discharge is also a problem.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/sulfation_and_how_to_prevent_it


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Yes, thanks for the correction on the wont sulfate.
And thanks for all the advice.
But that is what the chap claimed, the sulfating is what is killing these
deep cycles very early. And I will follow your advice very much, I will
never allow
these batteries to fully discharge or to not be topped up monthly. I will
top them up monthly. I always have paid close attention to my batteries when
in storage for winter season, now I will pay closer attention.

Interesting the chap there at C.T. told me that the new battery will not
desulfate.

Interesting enough also that when I put the two batteries side by side and
the new advanced ultra model was actually the same weight yet smaller in
size.

Just like any other industry, especially marine, they will not make me a
battery to last a lifetime, they need me to replace my batteries regularly.
Their accounting and marketing departments bank on it. Same as the smoke
detectors in the home, our firedepartment is going door to door in my
neighborhood inspecting and if you do not have they will sell you for $45.00
one for each floor (also a carbon monoxide detector) for same price, yet if
you check ebay they are only $8.00 . But I am sure smoke detectors and CO2
detectors can last longer than 5 years and function properly, but if they
lasted a lifetime or the lifetime of the house, the smoke/CO2 detector
businesses would hurt. So industry leaders bribe political leaders and so
goes a nanny state.

O well,,

Thanks a lot for all the advice, much appreciated

73s







"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 11 Jun 2015 08:31:19 -0400, "Tom" wrote:

So the chap at the C.T. store tells me this new battery will last decades
and wont de-sulfate (which is the reason most deep cycle batteries die).
http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/gr...l#.VXl-mlJ_9Cg

I think you mean "won't sulfate".

Hint. Find out how much the battery weighs. Presumably both the old
and this battery are both the same size. If you find that one is
substantially lighter, you're getting ripped off for that much in
lead. In general, the more lead, the better the battery.

With all due respect, I don't think you read or understood much of
what people have advised you to do. You also failed to disclose how
you are using this battery, which prevents selecting an appropriate
battery. I think you should reconsider your purchase of what looks
like a marine/RV engine starting motor and possibly ask your well
informed salesman how a magic sock is suppose to prevent battery
damage. I'll try again, although it's probably futile.

Sulfation is a normal part of the charge/discharge cycle of a battery.
When a battery is discharged, it produces lead sulfate on the plates:
http://www.progressivedyn.com/battery_basics.html
"This chemical reaction also begins to coat both positive
and negative plates with a substance called lead sulfate
also known as sulfation (shown as a yellow build-up on plates).
This build-up of lead sulfate is normal during a discharge cycle.
As the battery continues to discharge, lead sulfate coats more
and more of the plates and battery voltage begins to decrease
from fully charged state of 12.6-volts..."
Got it? Lead sulfate production is a normal part of battery
operation.

Where you get into trouble is when the lead sulfate crystalizes.
Amorphous lead sulfate is rather soft and is easily dissolved back
into solution during recharge. Crystaline lead sulfate is more like a
rock and just sits there. As more and more of the plates are coated
with the crystaline form of lead sulfate, less and less lead plate
surface area is exposed, causing a reduction in battery capacity. In
other words, you're not trying to prevent suflation. You're trying to
prevent lead sulfate crystalization. I would be interested in how a
sock can do that.

In my never humble opinion, the best way to prevent crystalization is
to not leave the battery in a discharged condition for very long. Deep
discharge is also a problem.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/sulfation_and_how_to_prevent_it


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 6/12/2015 8:19 AM, Tom wrote:
Yes, thanks for the correction on the wont sulfate.
And thanks for all the advice.
But that is what the chap claimed, the sulfating is what is killing
these deep cycles very early. And I will follow your advice very much, I
will never allow
these batteries to fully discharge or to not be topped up monthly. I
will top them up monthly. I always have paid close attention to my
batteries when in storage for winter season, now I will pay closer
attention.

Interesting the chap there at C.T. told me that the new battery will not
desulfate.

Interesting enough also that when I put the two batteries side by side
and the new advanced ultra model was actually the same weight yet
smaller in size.

Just like any other industry, especially marine, they will not make me a
battery to last a lifetime, they need me to replace my batteries
regularly. Their accounting and marketing departments bank on it. Same
as the smoke detectors in the home, our firedepartment is going door to
door in my neighborhood inspecting and if you do not have they will sell
you for $45.00 one for each floor (also a carbon monoxide detector) for
same price, yet if you check ebay they are only $8.00 . But I am sure
smoke detectors and CO2 detectors can last longer than 5 years and
function properly, but if they lasted a lifetime or the lifetime of the
house, the smoke/CO2 detector businesses would hurt. So industry leaders
bribe political leaders and so goes a nanny state.

O well,,

Thanks a lot for all the advice, much appreciated

73s



No, they aren't just trying to sell you things. Lead-acid batteries,
like all rechargeable batteries, do deteriorate over time - scientists
have never found a way to prevent it. I usually figure 5 years on car
and boat batteries; I don't want to be caught with a dead battery.

As for the smoke detectors - the $8.00 units you find on ebay are crap.
They are unreliable and may not work when required. Also, replacing
every 5 years isn't a bad idea; the longest any fire detector lasts is
about 10 years, mainly due to dust buildup in the sensor cavity.
Commercial grade detectors monitor dust buildup and can notify the
installer when the sensor degrades enough to be replaced; in a typical
installation this is around 7-8 years. My question here is - how much
are your family's lives worth?

P.S. Please don't top post. Thanks.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

So what makes you think you need to replace a smoke detector every 5
years? I had units in my house that lasted over 20 years.

On the other hand, I have not seen a CO2 detector for near the price of
a smoke detector. Are they really so inexpensive?

Rick


On 6/12/2015 8:19 AM, Tom wrote:
Yes, thanks for the correction on the wont sulfate.
And thanks for all the advice.
But that is what the chap claimed, the sulfating is what is killing
these deep cycles very early. And I will follow your advice very much, I
will never allow
these batteries to fully discharge or to not be topped up monthly. I
will top them up monthly. I always have paid close attention to my
batteries when in storage for winter season, now I will pay closer
attention.

Interesting the chap there at C.T. told me that the new battery will not
desulfate.

Interesting enough also that when I put the two batteries side by side
and the new advanced ultra model was actually the same weight yet
smaller in size.

Just like any other industry, especially marine, they will not make me a
battery to last a lifetime, they need me to replace my batteries
regularly. Their accounting and marketing departments bank on it. Same
as the smoke detectors in the home, our firedepartment is going door to
door in my neighborhood inspecting and if you do not have they will sell
you for $45.00 one for each floor (also a carbon monoxide detector) for
same price, yet if you check ebay they are only $8.00 . But I am sure
smoke detectors and CO2 detectors can last longer than 5 years and
function properly, but if they lasted a lifetime or the lifetime of the
house, the smoke/CO2 detector businesses would hurt. So industry leaders
bribe political leaders and so goes a nanny state.

O well,,

Thanks a lot for all the advice, much appreciated

73s

--

Rick

rickman wrote:
So what makes you think you need to replace a smoke detector every 5
years? I had units in my house that lasted over 20 years.

Likely a dusty environment.

On the other hand, I have not seen a CO2 detector for near the price of
a smoke detector. Are they really so inexpensive?

You mean CO detector.

My detector rolled over yesterday; full of dust and crap.

In Lowes I found battery powered, stand alone CO and smoke detectors
starting out at about $20, battery powered, stand alone combo CO/smoke
detectors starting at about $50.

High end, network enabled models for a bit more, hardwired dumb models
a bit less.


--
Jim Pennino

On 6/12/2015 2:25 PM, wrote:
rickman wrote:
So what makes you think you need to replace a smoke detector every 5
years? I had units in my house that lasted over 20 years.

Likely a dusty environment.

You mean *not* a dusty environment? These were AC units and most likely
died from a power surge. This house is in the boonies where voltage
surges are more common because of the long reaches.

Aren't most houses about the same level of dust? Being upside down on
the ceiling helps keep the crap out. My PCs pick up tons more dust.


On the other hand, I have not seen a CO2 detector for near the price of
a smoke detector. Are they really so inexpensive?

You mean CO detector.

Yes, of course.

My detector rolled over yesterday; full of dust and crap.

In Lowes I found battery powered, stand alone CO and smoke detectors
starting out at about $20, battery powered, stand alone combo CO/smoke
detectors starting at about $50.

High end, network enabled models for a bit more, hardwired dumb models
a bit less.

I have always been able to find battery powered smoke detectors for $10.
Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot...

--

Rick

rickman wrote:
On 6/12/2015 2:25 PM, wrote:
rickman wrote:
So what makes you think you need to replace a smoke detector every 5
years? I had units in my house that lasted over 20 years.

Likely a dusty environment.

You mean *not* a dusty environment? These were AC units and most likely
died from a power surge. This house is in the boonies where voltage
surges are more common because of the long reaches.

I mean a dusty environment causes a shorter life.

Aren't most houses about the same level of dust? Being upside down on
the ceiling helps keep the crap out. My PCs pick up tons more dust.

The dust level in any given house is going to depend on a whole bunch
of factors; where it is, local winds, what is in the interior, presence
or absence and efficiency of whole house filters, number of people, number
of pets, etc.

On the other hand, I have not seen a CO2 detector for near the price of
a smoke detector. Are they really so inexpensive?

You mean CO detector.

Yes, of course.

My detector rolled over yesterday; full of dust and crap.

In Lowes I found battery powered, stand alone CO and smoke detectors
starting out at about $20, battery powered, stand alone combo CO/smoke
detectors starting at about $50.

High end, network enabled models for a bit more, hardwired dumb models
a bit less.

I have always been able to find battery powered smoke detectors for $10.
Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot...

So was I until yesterday...

--
Jim Pennino

Thanks all,

My idea was the push or the big brother (in receivith of a bribith) to force
us here in Ontario to change our smoke detectors every 5 years. It may even
be so written into the insurance laws (or fine print on page 62 on bottom of
incurance form) (in japanese) that the insurance company will not pay out
in the event of fire and your detectors are out of date according to the
provincial code. The insurance agents always inspect for cause to back out.

But what is happening in Ontario (in my city now) is the fire department
going door to door inspecting. Now get this. If you do not have a Carbon
Monoxide Tester on Every floor and IN Garage (if attached) then they cannot
leave until you do. Now they will sell you them off their truck and it is
$41.00 Canadian each. I know this because they are in my friend's
neighborhood and he has single floor and was forced to buy one. $41.00 on
the spot. Now, he gave me name and model number and exact same one can be
shipped to your door from the Ebay or Amazon for $12.00 Canadian.

Smoke detectors as well. Our big brother nanny state, the now most expensive
on the planet, is growing at an alarming rate and I could tell you a hundred
more ridiculous and expensive stupidity my govt is doing but this is an
idea.

So why would a Deep Cycle Battery Manufacturer make a batter last longer
than time frame that they couldn't calculate within their projected income
reports? I mean you own a boat. And why would a Smoke Detector Company
manufacture you a detector that would last the lifetime of the home? It
wouldn't be prudent.

You don't think that the big pharma companies are counting on our big
brother health care team of doctors here in Ontario to continue pushing big
pharma pills and keeping the people swallowing these pills at an alarming
rate? We have a prescription pill for everything today and our insurance
govt regulated and created companies pay for it all, after borrowing of
course etc etc. Same ole same ole. I guarantee the pharma giants are
banking on us swallowing hand fills of their hugely profitable pills for
decades and quarters to come. I mean how do you stop a 2 trillion per year
industry. Answer, you don't.

Thanks boys, sorry about the long wind, love what I learned about smoke
detectors. Thanks. But here in Ontario, the need for replacement is
different than your need down south. It is not solely how much value or
price you would put on your families head. A Huge waste factor is there.
That is the scare marketing the teams will use. And use successfully.

73s



wrote in message
...
rickman wrote:
On 6/12/2015 2:25 PM, wrote:
rickman wrote:
So what makes you think you need to replace a smoke detector every 5
years? I had units in my house that lasted over 20 years.

Likely a dusty environment.

You mean *not* a dusty environment? These were AC units and most likely
died from a power surge. This house is in the boonies where voltage
surges are more common because of the long reaches.

I mean a dusty environment causes a shorter life.

Aren't most houses about the same level of dust? Being upside down on
the ceiling helps keep the crap out. My PCs pick up tons more dust.

The dust level in any given house is going to depend on a whole bunch
of factors; where it is, local winds, what is in the interior, presence
or absence and efficiency of whole house filters, number of people, number
of pets, etc.

On the other hand, I have not seen a CO2 detector for near the price of
a smoke detector. Are they really so inexpensive?

You mean CO detector.

Yes, of course.

My detector rolled over yesterday; full of dust and crap.

In Lowes I found battery powered, stand alone CO and smoke detectors
starting out at about $20, battery powered, stand alone combo CO/smoke
detectors starting at about $50.

High end, network enabled models for a bit more, hardwired dumb models
a bit less.

I have always been able to find battery powered smoke detectors for $10.
Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot...

So was I until yesterday...

--
Jim Pennino

So what makes you think you need to replace a smoke detector every 5
years? I had units in my house that lasted over 20 years.

Have you actually tested it with (real or artificial) smoke, to make
sure that the sensor still senses?

The test button does not test the entire sensor chain, so you can have
a smoke detector which passes the button test but fails to alarm on
actual smoke or ionization.

Most of what I see on the Net says that replacing smoke detectors
after 8-10 years is recommended.

Likely a dusty environment.

Pretty common problem.

The Americium in ionization-type detectors has a very long lifetime,
but dust and debris and etc. can cause the sensitivity to degrade.

On the other hand, I have not seen a CO2 detector for near the price of
a smoke detector. Are they really so inexpensive?

You mean CO detector.

My detector rolled over yesterday; full of dust and crap.

In Lowes I found battery powered, stand alone CO and smoke detectors
starting out at about $20, battery powered, stand alone combo CO/smoke
detectors starting at about $50.

My understanding is that the sensor in the CO detectors, being
chemically based, does have a limited lifetime. As of 2009, ANSI/UL
specs require that such alarms begin chirping an "end of lifetime"
signal after 5 years of operation... and a couple of weeks after this,
you can no longer turn off the chirp.

Dave Platt wrote:
So what makes you think you need to replace a smoke detector every 5
years? I had units in my house that lasted over 20 years.

Have you actually tested it with (real or artificial) smoke, to make
sure that the sensor still senses?

The thing was constantly alarming.

Hitting it with a canned air duster blew out a cloud of dust.

The chirping went intermittant.

I then tossed the thing and went to Lowes.

$20 every 5 to 10 years is a trivial expense.

My understanding is that the sensor in the CO detectors, being
chemically based, does have a limited lifetime. As of 2009, ANSI/UL
specs require that such alarms begin chirping an "end of lifetime"
signal after 5 years of operation... and a couple of weeks after this,
you can no longer turn off the chirp.

Which reminds me that my portable CO monitor for the airplane is likely
at or near its end of life and they are quite a bit more than $20.


--
Jim Pennino