On 11/1/2015 9:27 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:31:55 -0500, rickman wrote:

When you say dryer hose, you mean the corrugated aluminum tube that is 3
or 4 inches in diameter.

Yep. Just like the stuff in the links provided.

That might work for a loop antenna, but I
think the corrugations are hard to collapse once you expand them. So I
doubt it will work as the tuning element unless you simply change the
shape of the loop rather than keeping it a circle with an adjustable size.

The bungee cord down the middle is suppose to help collapse the hose.
I must confess that I haven't tried it. If that doesn't work, then
some elastic cords. If that fails, a nylon rope and some external
springs.

I used some of this stuff in a larger diameter to connect a humidifier
and it was flexible enough to extend and shape, but didn't go back
hardly at all.

Yep. It won't go back by itself and needs some additional help.
Anyway, if you want to get your picture in QST as the building of the
worlds strangest and probably cheapest loop antenna, here's your
chance.

Ok, so if you can force it to shrink with springs or ropes or whatever,
then something will be needed to force it to expand again. I'm having
trouble seeing how this will work without the antenna losing all shape.
These tubes are just not really easy to manipulate. They are intended
to be bent once with more than a little force but more importantly very
controlled force.

I'm not sure the inductance will change all that much. I have never
seen a calculation for the inductance of an accordion. It may have a
rather limited tuning range compared to a typical variable cap. At
least the frequency will scale the right way with size. Smaller loop,
lower inductance, higher frequency which will keep the radiation
resistance high.

--

Rick

On Sun, 1 Nov 2015 21:58:32 -0500, rickman wrote:

Ok, so if you can force it to shrink with springs or ropes or whatever,
then something will be needed to force it to expand again.

Yep. A bicycle pump, hand pump, crank pump, bellows pump, electric
pump, or pressure vessel will all inflate the antenna.

I'm having
trouble seeing how this will work without the antenna losing all shape.

Below some pressure level, it will probably flop over if mounted
vertically. That's why I mumbled that I wasn't sure if it should be
mounted vertically with a support pole, or horizontally on a flat
sheet of plywood. Both will work, but I'm not sure which is better.

These tubes are just not really easy to manipulate. They are intended
to be bent once with more than a little force but more importantly very
controlled force.

In other words, after a few inflation deflation cycles, it might fall
apart. I have a few that I bought for the inflatable antenna project.
It looked quite flexible to me but I'll test it to be sure.

I'm not sure the inductance will change all that much. I have never
seen a calculation for the inductance of an accordion. It may have a
rather limited tuning range compared to a typical variable cap. At
least the frequency will scale the right way with size. Smaller loop,
lower inductance, higher frequency which will keep the radiation
resistance high.

Good point. At one time, I was wondering how to increase the
bandwidth of a yagi antenna. I knew that rounding the ends of the
elements would increase the bandwidth because there was no single
length for which to consider the "end" of the antenna rod. Similarly,
when calculating the rod length of a yagi antenna, the RF path around
the center boom must be added to the rod length. That made me wonder
if I could roughen the antenna rod to produce the same effect. I
guess corrugation might be considered the ultimate form of antenna
"roughness". The question was would the antenna length be the
distance from end to end of the accordion, or would it be the distance
traveled across the surface along all the ups and downs of the
accordion.

What I found was that the effect varies with frequency and of course
the accordion geometry. At 1MHz, the resonant length was the surface
distance traveled. In other words, expanding the accordion had little
effect on the antenna resonance. At much higher frequencies (about
150 MHz), there was enough capacitance between the accordion "sides"
that the antenna was effectively shortened and the resonant frequency
was the end to end distance. However, that's not exactly true because
there were multiple path lengths which could be considered resonant,
much like the rounded end on the rod. So, at low frequencies, my
scheme probably won't work. At higher frequencies, maybe. Your task,
should you decide to accept it, is to try it. All it will take is a
length of flex aluminum dryer hose and an LRC meter.

Please note that my testing was not a proper lab test but more like
screwing around with a grid dipper, LRC meter, and network analyzer to
help settle a lunch time argument.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 11/1/2015 11:32 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 1 Nov 2015 21:58:32 -0500, rickman wrote:

Ok, so if you can force it to shrink with springs or ropes or whatever,
then something will be needed to force it to expand again.

Yep. A bicycle pump, hand pump, crank pump, bellows pump, electric
pump, or pressure vessel will all inflate the antenna.

Ok, that might be workable. I think the tube will need a liner. I'm
not sure this stuff will be easy to seal.


I'm having
trouble seeing how this will work without the antenna losing all shape.

Below some pressure level, it will probably flop over if mounted
vertically. That's why I mumbled that I wasn't sure if it should be
mounted vertically with a support pole, or horizontally on a flat
sheet of plywood. Both will work, but I'm not sure which is better.

You are assuming it will maintain something remotely like a circle. I
don't see that happening. Have you worked with this stuff? Maybe what
you have is more pliable than the stuff I used.


These tubes are just not really easy to manipulate. They are intended
to be bent once with more than a little force but more importantly very
controlled force.

In other words, after a few inflation deflation cycles, it might fall
apart. I have a few that I bought for the inflatable antenna project.
It looked quite flexible to me but I'll test it to be sure.

I don't mean fall apart necessarily, but just not be much like a loop
antenna. I think the hard part will be shrinking it back down and
keeping its shape. Proof of the pudding...


I'm not sure the inductance will change all that much. I have never
seen a calculation for the inductance of an accordion. It may have a
rather limited tuning range compared to a typical variable cap. At
least the frequency will scale the right way with size. Smaller loop,
lower inductance, higher frequency which will keep the radiation
resistance high.

Good point. At one time, I was wondering how to increase the
bandwidth of a yagi antenna. I knew that rounding the ends of the
elements would increase the bandwidth because there was no single
length for which to consider the "end" of the antenna rod. Similarly,
when calculating the rod length of a yagi antenna, the RF path around
the center boom must be added to the rod length. That made me wonder
if I could roughen the antenna rod to produce the same effect. I
guess corrugation might be considered the ultimate form of antenna
"roughness". The question was would the antenna length be the
distance from end to end of the accordion, or would it be the distance
traveled across the surface along all the ups and downs of the
accordion.

There are helically wound antennas that have a similar issue. I have
yet to see any equations to model them. I wonder if they work or not,
in the sense of any better than a simple loop.


What I found was that the effect varies with frequency and of course
the accordion geometry. At 1MHz, the resonant length was the surface
distance traveled. In other words, expanding the accordion had little
effect on the antenna resonance. At much higher frequencies (about
150 MHz), there was enough capacitance between the accordion "sides"
that the antenna was effectively shortened and the resonant frequency
was the end to end distance. However, that's not exactly true because
there were multiple path lengths which could be considered resonant,
much like the rounded end on the rod. So, at low frequencies, my
scheme probably won't work. At higher frequencies, maybe. Your task,
should you decide to accept it, is to try it. All it will take is a
length of flex aluminum dryer hose and an LRC meter.

I don't have any equipment to date. I have a couple of projects ahead
of this if I decide to build something.


Please note that my testing was not a proper lab test but more like
screwing around with a grid dipper, LRC meter, and network analyzer to
help settle a lunch time argument.

You clearly have much more experience than I do. I wold barely know how
to use a SWR meter and don't have an LRC meter... I can't remember what
a grid dip meter is.

--

Rick

On Mon, 2 Nov 2015 00:28:03 -0500, rickman wrote:

You are assuming it will maintain something remotely like a circle. I
don't see that happening. Have you worked with this stuff? Maybe what
you have is more pliable than the stuff I used.

I've worked with the vinyl dryer hose, but not the aluminum foil
variety. With the vinyl, I was using the helical "Slinky" part of the
hose as an HF antenna. As I mentioned, the steel spring got hot and
melted the vinyl. The actual inflatable antenna was a vertical
monopole, so I never even tried to make a loop, and am not sure it
will work. That's why I'm trying to recruit someone else to do the
dirty work. I guess I could go shopping and do it myself, but I'm
kinda busy this week (mostly recovering from the last 3 week of
overwork). I suspect that there might be problems if I use too much
air pressure. With the monopole, the hose would handle about 30 psi
before producing a leak. It thinks that's more than enough to inflate
the loop, but might not be enough to be self supporting, especially
with a capacitor at the top.

I don't mean fall apart necessarily, but just not be much like a loop
antenna. I think the hard part will be shrinking it back down and
keeping its shape. Proof of the pudding...

The optimum shape is a circle with square, hexagon and octagon shapes
being a tolerable facsimile. I guess the question is whether a random
pretzel shape will work. Dunno, difficult to simulate, but easy to
try.

There are helically wound antennas that have a similar issue. I have
yet to see any equations to model them. I wonder if they work or not,
in the sense of any better than a simple loop.

One of the local club members build a 160 meter vertical rubber ducky
(helical antenna) with ground radials and ended up with a usable
bandwidth of about 2KHz. Keeping it tuned on frequency was a
challenge. I think it was only about 10ft high and reportedly worked
fairly well. I tried to model it with 4NEC2 but gave up for some
forgotten reason. I think it was my inability to model the ground
characteristics. Based on this example, I would say a loop would be
better because the grounding isn't part of the puzzle.

I don't have any equipment to date. I have a couple of projects ahead
of this if I decide to build something.

No test equipment? It's difficult to build anything without some
basic RF equipment. I can provide a basic shopping list if you would
like. My shop, which I've been told should be repurposed a museum.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/home/slides/lab.html

You clearly have much more experience than I do. I wold barely know how
to use a SWR meter and don't have an LRC meter... I can't remember what
a grid dip meter is.

Sigh. I have 4 assorted grid dip meters. I can mail you one if you
would like to play. It's very handy for measuring the resonant
frequencies of any LC circuit or antenna. It's not very accurate but
will get you in the ballpark or at least tell you if you're too high
or too low in frequency. Like this, but with more paint chipped off
and the case missing. At least all the coils are there.
http://www.universal-radio.com/used/W483lrg.jpg
Note that it won't go down to 60 KHz although I tried making a coil
that covered the range.

Argh... I'm late (again).

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 11/2/2015 2:49 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 2 Nov 2015 00:28:03 -0500, rickman wrote:

You are assuming it will maintain something remotely like a circle. I
don't see that happening. Have you worked with this stuff? Maybe what
you have is more pliable than the stuff I used.

I've worked with the vinyl dryer hose, but not the aluminum foil
variety. With the vinyl, I was using the helical "Slinky" part of the
hose as an HF antenna. As I mentioned, the steel spring got hot and
melted the vinyl.

Sure, there is nothing good about the slinky dryer tube you mention.
Steel has horrible conductivity with its high resistance *and* very
shallow skin effect. But even a copper wire of that small gauge would
not be effective in a transmitter loop antenna.


The actual inflatable antenna was a vertical
monopole, so I never even tried to make a loop, and am not sure it
will work. That's why I'm trying to recruit someone else to do the
dirty work. I guess I could go shopping and do it myself, but I'm
kinda busy this week (mostly recovering from the last 3 week of
overwork). I suspect that there might be problems if I use too much
air pressure. With the monopole, the hose would handle about 30 psi
before producing a leak. It thinks that's more than enough to inflate
the loop, but might not be enough to be self supporting, especially
with a capacitor at the top.

I bought a piece of dryer aluminum to use in another experiment (btw, a
four foot column does not create much chimney effect over a 100 W light
bulb) and they are stiff, too stiff to be worked by a balloon. Also
they bend by expanding one side and not the other. Once it is bent it
is a bit hard to straighten out. I am not trying to dampen your
spirits. I suggest you buy a short piece of this stuff and just bend it
by hand. Get a feel for it and see if you think this type of tube can
be manipulated by simple machinery. I think it will cost less than $10
to try this.


I don't mean fall apart necessarily, but just not be much like a loop
antenna. I think the hard part will be shrinking it back down and
keeping its shape. Proof of the pudding...

The optimum shape is a circle with square, hexagon and octagon shapes
being a tolerable facsimile. I guess the question is whether a random
pretzel shape will work. Dunno, difficult to simulate, but easy to
try.

The prevailing wisdom is the area is what matters. Given what I saw in
those videos which seem to show directionality in the plane of the loop,
I'm not so sure. That and the results people seem to get with helical
loop antennas make me think we don't really "get" loop antennas.


There are helically wound antennas that have a similar issue. I have
yet to see any equations to model them. I wonder if they work or not,
in the sense of any better than a simple loop.

One of the local club members build a 160 meter vertical rubber ducky
(helical antenna) with ground radials and ended up with a usable
bandwidth of about 2KHz. Keeping it tuned on frequency was a
challenge. I think it was only about 10ft high and reportedly worked
fairly well. I tried to model it with 4NEC2 but gave up for some
forgotten reason. I think it was my inability to model the ground
characteristics. Based on this example, I would say a loop would be
better because the grounding isn't part of the puzzle.

I don't have any equipment to date. I have a couple of projects ahead
of this if I decide to build something.

No test equipment? It's difficult to build anything without some
basic RF equipment. I can provide a basic shopping list if you would
like. My shop, which I've been told should be repurposed a museum.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/home/slides/lab.html

You clearly have much more experience than I do. I wold barely know how
to use a SWR meter and don't have an LRC meter... I can't remember what
a grid dip meter is.

Sigh. I have 4 assorted grid dip meters. I can mail you one if you
would like to play. It's very handy for measuring the resonant
frequencies of any LC circuit or antenna. It's not very accurate but
will get you in the ballpark or at least tell you if you're too high
or too low in frequency. Like this, but with more paint chipped off
and the case missing. At least all the coils are there.
http://www.universal-radio.com/used/W483lrg.jpg
Note that it won't go down to 60 KHz although I tried making a coil
that covered the range.

Thanks for the offer. Let me get my other stuff out of the way and
maybe I'll take you up on this.

--

Rick

On 11/1/2015 10:32 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 1 Nov 2015 21:58:32 -0500, rickman wrote:

Ok, so if you can force it to shrink with springs or ropes or whatever,
then something will be needed to force it to expand again.

Yep. A bicycle pump, hand pump, crank pump, bellows pump, electric
pump, or pressure vessel will all inflate the antenna.

I'm having
trouble seeing how this will work without the antenna losing all shape.

Below some pressure level, it will probably flop over if mounted
vertically. That's why I mumbled that I wasn't sure if it should be
mounted vertically with a support pole, or horizontally on a flat
sheet of plywood. Both will work, but I'm not sure which is better.

Hang it upside down.

Mikek

On Mon, 2 Nov 2015 09:13:38 -0600, amdx wrote:

Below some pressure level, it will probably flop over if mounted
vertically. That's why I mumbled that I wasn't sure if it should be
mounted vertically with a support pole, or horizontally on a flat
sheet of plywood. Both will work, but I'm not sure which is better.

Hang it upside down.
Mikek

But, all the photons will fall out of the loop that way.

Actually, there's a problem. It doesn't work as well upside down.
The magnetic loop has a rather directional field and takeoff angle and
does NOT have a constant current around the loop:
http://www.nonstopsystems.com/radio/vids-ant/antenna-Mag-Loop-Demo1.wmv
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUYI81dkEMA

I suspect that an inverted loop will send most of the RF into the
ground. I should probably test this.
http://www.nonstopsystems.com/radio/img-ant/antenna-magloop-rad-angle.gif

You might find this interesting on designing the 50 ohm matching
network to the loop, where the impedance varies by where it's fed:
http://www.g0cwt.co.uk/magloops/new_page_6.htm

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Mon, 02 Nov 2015 16:39:09 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

You might find this interesting on designing the 50 ohm matching
network to the loop, where the impedance varies by where it's fed:
http://www.g0cwt.co.uk/magloops/new_page_6.htm

Mo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdofH6R22Dg
Skip forward to 12:03 for an interesting comment:
"Commercial loops are usually radiating towards the ground and
a lot of the signal is warming the snails. I don't know how
so many people could have got it so wrong for so long".

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 11/2/2015 6:39 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 2 Nov 2015 09:13:38 -0600, amdx wrote:

Below some pressure level, it will probably flop over if mounted
vertically. That's why I mumbled that I wasn't sure if it should be
mounted vertically with a support pole, or horizontally on a flat
sheet of plywood. Both will work, but I'm not sure which is better.

Hang it upside down.
Mikek

But, all the photons will fall out of the loop that way.

Actually, there's a problem. It doesn't work as well upside down.
The magnetic loop has a rather directional field and takeoff angle and
does NOT have a constant current around the loop:
http://www.nonstopsystems.com/radio/vids-ant/antenna-Mag-Loop-Demo1.wmv
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUYI81dkEMA

I suspect that an inverted loop will send most of the RF into the
ground. I should probably test this.
http://www.nonstopsystems.com/radio/img-ant/antenna-magloop-rad-angle.gif

You might find this interesting on designing the 50 ohm matching
network to the loop, where the impedance varies by where it's fed:
http://www.g0cwt.co.uk/magloops/new_page_6.htm



Sorry Jeff, When my post didn't show up, I noticed I sent it to you.
Here it is for the rest.



Just to add to the confusion,
Helically Loaded


You might glean info from here, or at the least

admire all the work put into the projects.



http://theradioboard.com/rb/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4399

Copper doughnut with lots of solder connections
http://www.aa5tb.com/jl1boh_03.jpg

http://www.hlmagneticloopantennas.com/

Hmm, I read a few comments, maybe not the way to go.



Mikek

On 11/2/2015 7:39 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 2 Nov 2015 09:13:38 -0600, amdx wrote:

Below some pressure level, it will probably flop over if mounted
vertically. That's why I mumbled that I wasn't sure if it should be
mounted vertically with a support pole, or horizontally on a flat
sheet of plywood. Both will work, but I'm not sure which is better.

Hang it upside down.
Mikek

But, all the photons will fall out of the loop that way.

Actually, there's a problem. It doesn't work as well upside down.
The magnetic loop has a rather directional field and takeoff angle and
does NOT have a constant current around the loop:
http://www.nonstopsystems.com/radio/vids-ant/antenna-Mag-Loop-Demo1.wmv

I don't get this video. I can't really hear what he is saying so when
he says at the end, "this is not what you would expect" I don't get it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUYI81dkEMA

This video is about the voltage and current around a loop, but he says
it is a 1/10 wave loop, but I can't tell that. He has another video
showing the directionality of a 1/4 wave delta antenna. I'm wondering
if this is also a 1/4 wave antenna.


I suspect that an inverted loop will send most of the RF into the
ground. I should probably test this.
http://www.nonstopsystems.com/radio/img-ant/antenna-magloop-rad-angle.gif

Which type of loop antenna are you talking about, 1/4 wave, or 1/10
wave (small, magnetic)? I can't tell anything about this antenna and it
seems to contradict the other video.


You might find this interesting on designing the 50 ohm matching
network to the loop, where the impedance varies by where it's fed:
http://www.g0cwt.co.uk/magloops/new_page_6.htm

--

Rick