On 03/12/2015 12:45, Brian Howie wrote:
In message , Spike
writes

Note for Brian Howie: the study encompasses 472 kHz, and it should be
noted that below 1MHz the soil electromagnetic parameters diverge
significantly from HF values. This implies that a different approach
is needed, and one of the articles looks at this - you might find
this of interest.

Thanks I've had a look at them . If I ever get round to transmitting
there, I'll need a lot of earth.

I guess it will need a lot of planning! And wire...

I'm still using my 5 foot loop for receive, but it's now series tuned,
rather than parallel with a coupling loop and seems to work a bit better.

Do you find the S/N is improved with a loop? Have you thought of trying
a shielded loop?

By coincidence my morning training run took me near the EDN NDB

http://www.b-howie.demon.co.uk/lfbcon.htm

It's a top loaded vertical, but looking over the fence, I could see a
lot green earth wire radials on the surface. It's possible there are
buried ones too , but there are only about 6 and they can't be more than
15ft long,

For the beacon to be of maximum use, they'll need a good sky-wave
signal; it sounds like the visible radials are there to provide a DC
path to earth probably in association with a ground spike, rather than
for getting the main lobe lowered.


--
Spike

"Crime butchers innocence to secure a throne, and innocence struggles
with all its might against the attempts of crime"

- Maximilien Robespierre

In rec.radio.amateur.antenna Spike wrote:
On 03/12/2015 12:45, Brian Howie wrote:
In message , Spike
writes

Note for Brian Howie: the study encompasses 472 kHz, and it should be
noted that below 1MHz the soil electromagnetic parameters diverge
significantly from HF values. This implies that a different approach
is needed, and one of the articles looks at this - you might find
this of interest.

Thanks I've had a look at them . If I ever get round to transmitting
there, I'll need a lot of earth.

I guess it will need a lot of planning! And wire...

I'm still using my 5 foot loop for receive, but it's now series tuned,
rather than parallel with a coupling loop and seems to work a bit better.

Do you find the S/N is improved with a loop? Have you thought of trying
a shielded loop?

By coincidence my morning training run took me near the EDN NDB

http://www.b-howie.demon.co.uk/lfbcon.htm

It's a top loaded vertical, but looking over the fence, I could see a
lot green earth wire radials on the surface. It's possible there are
buried ones too , but there are only about 6 and they can't be more than
15ft long,

For the beacon to be of maximum use, they'll need a good sky-wave
signal; it sounds like the visible radials are there to provide a DC
path to earth probably in association with a ground spike, rather than
for getting the main lobe lowered.

Sky wave propagation doesn't happen at those frequencies for all practical
purposes.

Sky wave propagation was discovered when amateurs started using frequencies
greater than 200 meters.



--
Jim Pennino

On 05/12/2015 03:40, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.antenna Spike wrote:
On 03/12/2015 12:45, Brian Howie wrote:

By coincidence my morning training run took me near the EDN NDB

http://www.b-howie.demon.co.uk/lfbcon.htm

It's a top loaded vertical, but looking over the fence, I could see a
lot green earth wire radials on the surface. It's possible there are
buried ones too , but there are only about 6 and they can't be more than
15ft long,

For the beacon to be of maximum use, they'll need a good sky-wave
signal; it sounds like the visible radials are there to provide a DC
path to earth probably in association with a ground spike, rather than
for getting the main lobe lowered.

Sky wave propagation doesn't happen at those frequencies for all practical
purposes.

That's amazing. So all those aircraft at 35000 feet in its service area
can't hear the beacon? If it didn't have sky wave, it would merely be a
ground-wave beacon, not much use as there aren't that many airports
within 35 miles of Edinburgh, and the aircraft captains would know where
they were anyway.

Sky wave propagation was discovered when amateurs started using frequencies
greater than 200 meters.

What's interesting here is now much of the radiated power goes
sky-wards, and how much goes into surface wave. But apparently no-one's
ever thought to determine this, so it'll remain a mystery.


--
Spike

"Crime butchers innocence to secure a throne, and innocence struggles
with all its might against the attempts of crime"

- Maximilien Robespierre

In rec.radio.amateur.antenna Spike wrote:
On 05/12/2015 03:40, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.antenna Spike wrote:
On 03/12/2015 12:45, Brian Howie wrote:

By coincidence my morning training run took me near the EDN NDB

http://www.b-howie.demon.co.uk/lfbcon.htm

It's a top loaded vertical, but looking over the fence, I could see a
lot green earth wire radials on the surface. It's possible there are
buried ones too , but there are only about 6 and they can't be more than
15ft long,

For the beacon to be of maximum use, they'll need a good sky-wave
signal; it sounds like the visible radials are there to provide a DC
path to earth probably in association with a ground spike, rather than
for getting the main lobe lowered.

Sky wave propagation doesn't happen at those frequencies for all practical
purposes.

That's amazing. So all those aircraft at 35000 feet in its service area
can't hear the beacon? If it didn't have sky wave, it would merely be a
ground-wave beacon, not much use as there aren't that many airports
within 35 miles of Edinburgh, and the aircraft captains would know where
they were anyway.

OK, I see the problem, you don't know what "skywave" means.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skywave

BTW, at 35,000 feet, the propagation mode is line of sight out to
265 miles.

Sky wave propagation was discovered when amateurs started using frequencies
greater than 200 meters.

What's interesting here is now much of the radiated power goes
sky-wards, and how much goes into surface wave. But apparently no-one's
ever thought to determine this, so it'll remain a mystery.

The term for that is the vertical pattern and any antenna analysis
program will show it.

There have been LOTS of studies to determine the optimum vertical angle
for skywave propagation if that is what you are talking about.

--
Jim Pennino

On 05/12/2015 18:53, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.antenna Spike wrote:
On 05/12/2015 03:40, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.antenna Spike wrote:
On 03/12/2015 12:45, Brian Howie wrote:

By coincidence my morning training run took me near the EDN NDB

http://www.b-howie.demon.co.uk/lfbcon.htm

It's a top loaded vertical, but looking over the fence, I could see a
lot green earth wire radials on the surface. It's possible there are
buried ones too , but there are only about 6 and they can't be more than
15ft long,

For the beacon to be of maximum use, they'll need a good sky-wave
signal; it sounds like the visible radials are there to provide a DC
path to earth probably in association with a ground spike, rather than
for getting the main lobe lowered.

Sky wave propagation doesn't happen at those frequencies for all practical
purposes.

Tell that to the beacon DX hunters.

That's amazing. So all those aircraft at 35000 feet in its service area
can't hear the beacon? If it didn't have sky wave, it would merely be a
ground-wave beacon, not much use as there aren't that many airports
within 35 miles of Edinburgh, and the aircraft captains would know where
they were anyway.

OK, I see the problem, you don't know what "skywave" means.

To be refracted back, the wave has to reach the relevant layer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skywave

BTW, at 35,000 feet, the propagation mode is line of sight out to
265 miles.

And?

Sky wave propagation was discovered when amateurs started using frequencies
greater than 200 meters.

I've known that since 1956, but thanks for the reminder.

What's interesting here is now much of the radiated power goes
sky-wards, and how much goes into surface wave. But apparently no-one's
ever thought to determine this, so it'll remain a mystery.

The term for that is the vertical pattern and any antenna analysis
program will show it.

There have been LOTS of studies to determine the optimum vertical angle
for skywave propagation if that is what you are talking about.

Nope.

--
Spike

"Crime butchers innocence to secure a throne, and innocence struggles
with all its might against the attempts of crime"

- Maximilien Robespierre

In rec.radio.amateur.antenna Spike wrote:
On 05/12/2015 18:53, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.antenna Spike wrote:
On 05/12/2015 03:40, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.antenna Spike wrote:
On 03/12/2015 12:45, Brian Howie wrote:

By coincidence my morning training run took me near the EDN NDB

http://www.b-howie.demon.co.uk/lfbcon.htm

It's a top loaded vertical, but looking over the fence, I could see a
lot green earth wire radials on the surface. It's possible there are
buried ones too , but there are only about 6 and they can't be more than
15ft long,

For the beacon to be of maximum use, they'll need a good sky-wave
signal; it sounds like the visible radials are there to provide a DC
path to earth probably in association with a ground spike, rather than
for getting the main lobe lowered.

Sky wave propagation doesn't happen at those frequencies for all practical
purposes.

Tell that to the beacon DX hunters.

That is ground wave propagation; I'd give you a link but you obviously
prefer to pull crap out of your ass to reading links.

That's amazing. So all those aircraft at 35000 feet in its service area
can't hear the beacon? If it didn't have sky wave, it would merely be a
ground-wave beacon, not much use as there aren't that many airports
within 35 miles of Edinburgh, and the aircraft captains would know where
they were anyway.

OK, I see the problem, you don't know what "skywave" means.

To be refracted back, the wave has to reach the relevant layer.

Didn't read the link below, did you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skywave

BTW, at 35,000 feet, the propagation mode is line of sight out to
265 miles.

And?

And "those aircraft at 35000 feet" are receiving the beacon through
line of sight propagation, not skywave.


Sky wave propagation was discovered when amateurs started using frequencies
greater than 200 meters.

I've known that since 1956, but thanks for the reminder.

Perhaps you should have read more in 1956 to understand what the term
means.

What's interesting here is now much of the radiated power goes
sky-wards, and how much goes into surface wave. But apparently no-one's
ever thought to determine this, so it'll remain a mystery.

The term for that is the vertical pattern and any antenna analysis
program will show it.

There have been LOTS of studies to determine the optimum vertical angle
for skywave propagation if that is what you are talking about.

Nope.

Then you are ignorant of antenna analysis software and vertical radiation
patterns?

--
Jim Pennino

wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.antenna Spike wrote:
On 05/12/2015 18:53, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.antenna Spike wrote:
On 05/12/2015 03:40, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.antenna Spike wrote:
On 03/12/2015 12:45, Brian Howie wrote:

By coincidence my morning training run took me near the EDN NDB

http://www.b-howie.demon.co.uk/lfbcon.htm

It's a top loaded vertical, but looking over the fence, I could see a
lot green earth wire radials on the surface. It's possible there are
buried ones too , but there are only about 6 and they can't be more than
15ft long,

For the beacon to be of maximum use, they'll need a good sky-wave
signal; it sounds like the visible radials are there to provide a DC
path to earth probably in association with a ground spike, rather than
for getting the main lobe lowered.

Sky wave propagation doesn't happen at those frequencies for all practical
purposes.

Tell that to the beacon DX hunters.

That is ground wave propagation; I'd give you a link but you obviously
prefer to pull crap out of your ass to reading links.

That's amazing. So all those aircraft at 35000 feet in its service area
can't hear the beacon? If it didn't have sky wave, it would merely be a
ground-wave beacon, not much use as there aren't that many airports
within 35 miles of Edinburgh, and the aircraft captains would know where
they were anyway.

OK, I see the problem, you don't know what "skywave" means.

To be refracted back, the wave has to reach the relevant layer.

Didn't read the link below, did you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skywave

BTW, at 35,000 feet, the propagation mode is line of sight out to
265 miles.

And?

And "those aircraft at 35000 feet" are receiving the beacon through
line of sight propagation, not skywave.


Sky wave propagation was discovered when amateurs started using frequencies
greater than 200 meters.

I've known that since 1956, but thanks for the reminder.

Perhaps you should have read more in 1956 to understand what the term
means.

What's interesting here is now much of the radiated power goes
sky-wards, and how much goes into surface wave. But apparently no-one's
ever thought to determine this, so it'll remain a mystery.

The term for that is the vertical pattern and any antenna analysis
program will show it.

There have been LOTS of studies to determine the optimum vertical angle
for skywave propagation if that is what you are talking about.

Nope.

Then you are ignorant of antenna analysis software and vertical radiation
patterns?

Jim doing a Jeff here and tearing Spike *yet another* new arsehole.
Excellent work, OM.

--
STC // M0TEY // twitter.com/ukradioamateur

On 06/12/2015 00:06, wrote:

snip

Your problem, or at least one of them, is that your first response
included this statement:

"Sky wave propagation doesn't happen at those frequencies for all practical
purposes."

I let this slide in the interests of discussion, but seeing as you wish
to nit-pick and be rude, we'll revisit this by my asking you what you
meant, as you are implying that there is in fact some form of skywave at
these low-MF Aeronautical beacon frequencies. Please explain.

While doing that, please also explain what you think it is that causes
the claimed variations in the ground wave than enable DX beacon hunters
to hear such stations at very long ranges.

The relevant quotes are he

Sky wave propagation doesn't happen at those frequencies for all practical purposes.

Tell that to the beacon DX hunters.

That is ground wave propagation; I'd give you a link but you obviously
prefer to pull crap out of your ass to reading links.

TIA

--
Spike

"Crime butchers innocence to secure a throne, and innocence struggles
with all its might against the attempts of crime"

- Maximilien Robespierre