Hi,

Have you some experience on the air using a Carolina Windom 40m long
compared to a G5RV 31m (100 ft) long...
I have the experience of G5RV but not the Windom yet.
The objective is using them for local qso but also dx in ssb (according to
their possibilities, thus not up to reach JA from ON or maybe via the
grayline, to see..)

I am going to install both (in NS and EW direction) but I really don't know
which is best or if they are really on par.

The Windom comes with 2 traps (1 per segment, as the standard design), a 6:1
balun ended with a coax. The G5RV is multiband too, without traps and uses a
4:1 balun ended with a 10m ladder line (standard design) , then a coax.
There is this already 2 or 3 hardware differences.

Knowing that one segment of the Windom is shorter, does it impact negatively
the radiation pattern with e.g. more sensitivity to QRM or other "defect"
that G5RV doesn't show ?

NB. I could use HFANT or MutiNEC to simulate that but that required to input
all antenna parameters first to design it before ask the program to simulate
its pattern... a field experiment is faster and welcome ;-)

Thanks in advance

Thierry, ON4SKY

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:39:50 +0200, "Thierry"
http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry wrote:
The objective is using them for local qso but also dx in ssb (according to
their possibilities, thus not up to reach JA from ON or maybe via the
grayline, to see..)

Hi Thierry,

One application (local/DX) has to suffer at the expense of the other.
YOU have to choose which application you want as first choice.

I am going to install both (in NS and EW direction) but I really don't know
which is best or if they are really on par.

This is another choice YOU have to make. What do YOU want to do? If
it is grayline, you cannot do this very effectively with a dipole
going North/South.

Even going East/West will not result in the best if you work stations
mostly in a ENE/WNW Great Circle bearing.

You need to use a propagation program like WinVOA to see what design
you need (dipole orientation that is) and then build to that bearing.
If you build two antennas that are crossed (and even if one is Windom
and the other G5RV); then you will have a suitable solution -
somewhere (even if you drive them both and phase them).

There is this already 2 or 3 hardware differences.

These are practical problems of construction, not operational results.

Knowing that one segment of the Windom is shorter, does it impact negatively
the radiation pattern with e.g. more sensitivity to QRM or other "defect"
that G5RV doesn't show ?

Short answer: NO. Long answer: Yes.

a field experiment is faster and welcome ;-)

Only if we happen to be a neighbor - quel dommage.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:05:39 GMT, Richard Clark wrote:

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:39:50 +0200, "Thierry"
http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry wrote:
The objective is using them for local qso but also dx in ssb (according to
their possibilities, thus not up to reach JA from ON or maybe via the
grayline, to see..)

Hi Thierry,

One application (local/DX) has to suffer at the expense of the other.
YOU have to choose which application you want as first choice.

I am going to install both (in NS and EW direction) but I really don't know
which is best or if they are really on par.

This is another choice YOU have to make. What do YOU want to do? If
it is grayline, you cannot do this very effectively with a dipole
going North/South.

Even going East/West will not result in the best if you work stations
mostly in a ENE/WNW Great Circle bearing.

You need to use a propagation program like WinVOA to see what design
you need (dipole orientation that is) and then build to that bearing.
If you build two antennas that are crossed (and even if one is Windom
and the other G5RV); then you will have a suitable solution -
somewhere (even if you drive them both and phase them).

There is this already 2 or 3 hardware differences.

These are practical problems of construction, not operational results.

Knowing that one segment of the Windom is shorter, does it impact negatively
the radiation pattern with e.g. more sensitivity to QRM or other "defect"
that G5RV doesn't show ?

Short answer: NO. Long answer: Yes.

a field experiment is faster and welcome ;-)

Only if we happen to be a neighbor - quel dommage.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Hi Thierry,

If I may put in my two-cents worth, a dipole is a dipole. The G5RV is a dipole
and the Caroling Windom is a dipole. Except for their use on harmonically
ralated bands the radiation is the same for each. Any different radiation
pattern on harmonically related bands results only from a difference in lengths
of the dipoles. The dipole length of the traditional G5RV is 102 feet. If the
Windom is cut for some longer length the pattern will be somehwhat different on
the higher harmonic bands, but the difference will be rather insignificant.

Walt, W2DU

Taking one band with another and one direction with another, the difference
between a Windom and G5RV will be entirely undetectable.

They will both have somewhat poorer performance than a simple random length
dipole of about the same length and height fed over a random length, high
impedance, any Zo, open-wire line.

Following the study you have given to the subject, you may be disappointed
at the responses to your question, But you did ask.

And there's no reason why you should be deterred from experimenting with
either or both types of antenna. You will then be at least as wise as us
Old Wive's.

If you should like playing with just a few numbers then amuse yourself with
small programs DIPOLE3 and ENDFEED. Download from website below in a few
seconds and run immediately. They provide lots of data but the most
important thing is the single number - radiating efficiency!
---
.................................................. ..........
Regards from Reg, G4FGQ
For Free Radio Design Software go to
http://www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp
.................................................. ..........

Thanks for all comments.

I did a mistakle in my specs because they are no traps on the windom (I
confused with W4DZZ).

In fact I thought that both designs being wire antennas of almost the same
length, they 'd display the same radiation pattern at a few percent.
But I was focused on the shortest segment (1/3) of the windom and wonder
whether it could cause or not additional problems or display drawbacks
compared to a real dipole...
In all case I will test it in 2 weeks.
Problem with dipole3, the influence of a shorter segment is not taken into
account. I don't know if that could be important, probably not much, but it
'd have been interesting to add some additional parameters like the length
of each segment and the tilt of the tilt too to get a more accurate result.

Addition:
My believe is founded. I just find some radiation patterns and comments in
the ARRL antenna book ch7-8. The windom is much more omnidirectional than a
dipole. They say that "the system (windom) takes advantage of the asymmetry
of the horizontal wires to induce current onto the braid of the vertical
coax section.... The radiation pattern... tends to fill in the deep nulls
that 'd be present ... if horizontally center fed".
globally they consider that the windom give better results due to the
omnidirectional pattern or so than a true dipole.
Anyway, if I have the courage I will try to simulate the windom in Multinec.


Thanks for the help
Thierry, ON4SKY


"Reg Edwards" wrote in message
...
Taking one band with another and one direction with another, the
difference
between a Windom and G5RV will be entirely undetectable.

They will both have somewhat poorer performance than a simple random
length
dipole of about the same length and height fed over a random length, high
impedance, any Zo, open-wire line.

Following the study you have given to the subject, you may be disappointed
at the responses to your question, But you did ask.

And there's no reason why you should be deterred from experimenting with
either or both types of antenna. You will then be at least as wise as us
Old Wive's.

If you should like playing with just a few numbers then amuse yourself
with
small programs DIPOLE3 and ENDFEED. Download from website below in a few
seconds and run immediately. They provide lots of data but the most
important thing is the single number - radiating efficiency!
---
.................................................. .........
Regards from Reg, G4FGQ
For Free Radio Design Software go to
http://www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp
.................................................. .........

"Richard Clark" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:39:50 +0200, "Thierry"
http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry wrote:
The objective is using them for local qso but also dx in ssb (according
to
their possibilities, thus not up to reach JA from ON or maybe via the
grayline, to see..)

Hi Thierry,

One application (local/DX) has to suffer at the expense of the other.
YOU have to choose which application you want as first choice.

I am going to install both (in NS and EW direction) but I really don't
know
which is best or if they are really on par.

This is another choice YOU have to make. What do YOU want to do? If
it is grayline, you cannot do this very effectively with a dipole
going North/South.

Even going East/West will not result in the best if you work stations
mostly in a ENE/WNW Great Circle bearing.

You need to use a propagation program like WinVOA to see what design
you need (dipole orientation that is) and then build to that bearing.
If you build two antennas that are crossed (and even if one is Windom
and the other G5RV); then you will have a suitable solution -
somewhere (even if you drive them both and phase them).



Good idea, about simulation, I will try to create the windom design in
multiprop or hfant (I know the one of the dipole) and then run the voacap to
see what the matter.
FYI here is the pattern at short distance of a G5RV, 100W, tight EW,
http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry/Radi...p-on-la-12.gif
The windom should be more omnidirectional.

Thierry, ON4SKY

There is this already 2 or 3 hardware differences.

These are practical problems of construction, not operational results.

Knowing that one segment of the Windom is shorter, does it impact
negatively
the radiation pattern with e.g. more sensitivity to QRM or other "defect"
that G5RV doesn't show ?

Short answer: NO. Long answer: Yes.

a field experiment is faster and welcome ;-)

Only if we happen to be a neighbor - quel dommage.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

"Thierry" http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry wrote in message ...
Hi,

Have you some experience on the air using a Carolina Windom 40m long
compared to a G5RV 31m (100 ft) long...

Yea. I've tried both. They both are sort of lame compared to a normal
coax fed dipole for a given band. I agree with Walt that a dipole is a
dipole as far as pattern for a given band...The difference is how much
power actually makes it to the antenna to be radiated. This is what
separates the mediocre from the better.
If I wanted to work dx, I would use neither of those antennas. But you
don't mention what band you want to work dx...The lower the band, the
better the standard coax fed dipoles in general. But on the other
hand, the lower the band, and the better a good vertical would work
compared to the dipole. :/
Anything can work dx on the higher bands unless the radiation angles
are way too high. If you want all bands with a single wire, I would
use the standard dipole cut for the lowest band, and feed with ladder
line and a good tuner. Or no tuner with the Cecil method...Myself, I
prefer paralleled dipoles fed with a single coax. Don't need a tuner,
and the efficiency is high. The G5RV and the common storebought windom
both have fairly lossy feedline systems for my tastes. And the windom
is prone to common mode problems, etc...I don't like an unbalanced
antenna unless it's a last resort. MK

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 01:12:30 +0200, "Thierry"
http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry wrote:

FYI here is the pattern at short distance of a G5RV, 100W, tight EW,
http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry/Radi...p-on-la-12.gif

Hi Thierry,

Hmmmm, I can see where the magnetic pole is.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Ok Mark, for sure for DXing a dipole or a windom is not a beam...
From europe in SSB and barefoot (100W in SSB), with my G5RV tight EW I reach
FY, PY, midwest US, VU, 4S, UA9J,C, RA9 artic, central africa. Hard to go
farther bu these days of SSN decreasing.

My objective is Dxing first as for local QSOs this is not a problem to get
S9+.
I know very well that DX performances will be more than limited, all the
more in SSB, but this is a temporary solution waiting for a small beam 3-or
4 ele.

Thierry, ON4SKY


"Mark Keith" wrote in message
om...
"Thierry" http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry wrote in message
...
Hi,

Have you some experience on the air using a Carolina Windom 40m long
compared to a G5RV 31m (100 ft) long...

Yea. I've tried both. They both are sort of lame compared to a normal
coax fed dipole for a given band. I agree with Walt that a dipole is a
dipole as far as pattern for a given band...The difference is how much
power actually makes it to the antenna to be radiated. This is what
separates the mediocre from the better.
If I wanted to work dx, I would use neither of those antennas. But you
don't mention what band you want to work dx...The lower the band, the
better the standard coax fed dipoles in general. But on the other
hand, the lower the band, and the better a good vertical would work
compared to the dipole. :/
Anything can work dx on the higher bands unless the radiation angles
are way too high. If you want all bands with a single wire, I would
use the standard dipole cut for the lowest band, and feed with ladder
line and a good tuner. Or no tuner with the Cecil method...Myself, I
prefer paralleled dipoles fed with a single coax. Don't need a tuner,
and the efficiency is high. The G5RV and the common storebought windom
both have fairly lossy feedline systems for my tastes. And the windom
is prone to common mode problems, etc...I don't like an unbalanced
antenna unless it's a last resort. MK

Walter Maxwell wrote:
If I may put in my two-cents worth, a dipole is a dipole. The G5RV is a dipole
and the Caroling Windom is a dipole.

Hi Walt, I don't know if you know or not, but the Carolina Windom
is designed for the vertical section to radiate so it has a
radiation pattern which is a combination of a dipole and a vertical.
--
73, Cecil, W5DXP


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