On 17/10/2018 14:20, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
"Roger Hayter" wrote in message
Stephen Thomas Cole wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 07:44:53 +0000, Spike
wrote:

Very interesting, but I'd have to say that none of what you say
refutes
my original contention that the distant station, which after all is
the
one we are trying to communicate with, will notice any difference to
the
received signal whether the sending station's antenna was tuned with a
20c torch bulb or a $300 VNA. You touched on the main vagaries of the
system when you said "What I've found is that such side by side
comparisons do not account for variations in propagation, path,
interference, local noise, time of day, position of the moon, and
other
factors beyond the operators control".

Perhaps an analogy might be useful. Instead of an HF radio, you're
dealing with your automobile. Under normal circumstances, it will get
you to work and back fairly efficiently. However, you notice that
your gasoline (petrol) mileage is not quite what you might expect. So,
you have a choice of mechanics. The first mechanic tunes the engine
with a light bulb, divining rod, magic incantations, and offers a
rather bizarre description of what work was done on the vehicle. The
second mechanic uses proper computerized test equipment to analyze the
situation, uses factory parts, and delivers the car with a detailed
printout of what was done, what changes were made, what parts were
used, and a before-after gas mileage comparison performed on a
dynamometer.

Now, which mechanic would you prefer? Your car will still go to work
and back in some manner. The second mechanic will cost more, because
he has to pay for all the expensive equipment and genuine parts. If
you're impoverished, obviously the first mechanic will be the only
available choice, but assuming you plan to keep the vehicle, one might
suspect it is a bad long term solution.

From my perspective, both professional and as a ham, I deal in
numbers. I can tell by looking at the numbers what is happening and
what needs to be done. I have a small collection of aging test
equipment to help me generate the numbers. Light bulbs do not
generate numbers and are therefore (in my never humble opinion)
useless and worthless.

However, I will concede that if your intent is "to be able to transmit
signals intended to be received by another station", a light bulb is
sufficient to determine that your transmitter is spewing RF, spurs,
harmonics, and noise into an antenna-like device that is either
radiating the RF, absorbing it into heat, or reflecting it back to the
transmitter (because the light bulb indicates the same in both
directions).

Burt won't appreciate being given an absolute schooling from Jeff here.

I don't appreciate an interesting discussion being interpreted as a
schoolyard fight by ignorant troublemakers like you and Gareth.

what was interesting about it ?.....

The clash of cultures between the open-minded out-of-the-box thinker,
and a rules-and-regulations-trump-everything engineer. We have the
latter type on UKRA too, more's the pity. Then there's those that don't
know a sideband from a sideburn, waving their 'Vouvray for our side'
banners. In all senses of the word.


--
Spike

"Nearly all men can stand adversity,
but if you want to test a man's character,
give him an internet group to manage"

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 14:32:20 +0000, Spike
wrote:
The clash of cultures between the open-minded out-of-the-box thinker,
and a rules-and-regulations-trump-everything engineer. We have the
latter type on UKRA too, more's the pity. Then there's those that don't
know a sideband from a sideburn, waving their 'Vouvray for our side'
banners. In all senses of the word.

I guess it's too late to put you back into your box. Yes, I'm one of
those rules-n-regs types. I've even been involved in manufacturing a
few standards. Since you have an open mind, I hope you don't mind if
I pour some reasons why we have rules-n-regs into your wide open mind.

In order to talk with someone via radio, you don't really need rules.
You could simply build or buy something that generates and detects RF,
attach a modulator, and now you're talking. The necessary ingredients
are commonly available and fairly inexpensive. Not much more than a
frequency counter or frequency standard are required so that you and
your accomplice are both on the same frequency. Tuning with a light
bulb is perfectly functional and will probably help with the tuning.

However, there's a problem. You and your accomplice are not the only
people on the air. There are others that also want to communicate
with their friends and find that spurious crap belched by badly
designed, badly constructed, or mis-adjusted transmitters are making
their communications rather difficult. Similarly, your ability to
receive transmissions from your accomplice might be limited by the
spurious junk produced by the other users of the spectrum. Therefore,
it would helpful if your receiver was somewhat tolerant to intermod,
overload, blocking, adjacent channel, spurious responses, and other
anomalies.

In order to insure a minimum level of quality, the various regulatory
agencies produce specifications and testing procedures. In other
words, they produce numbers. Manufacturers and builders of radios are
expected to test their products to those standards and fix anything
that fails to comply. If everyone complies, then there's a good
chance that you and your accomplice will be able to communicate
without either transmitting or receiving any interference.

Like you, I once had an open mind when it came to radio regulations.
At the time, I was designing marine VHF FM radios. I was faced with a
blocking (receiver overload) specification that was almost impossible.
The interfering signal was so high that my test equipment could not
produce the level required. I calculated that the interfering station
antenna would need to be about 2 ft (60 cm) from my radio antenna to
produce the required interference level. My open mind declared that
to be ridiculous. I protested the specification and waited. In the
return mail (this was before email), I received several photos of
typical marine masts, yardarms, and towers, showing dual watch VHF
antennas about 2ft away from each other. Oops. It was a real problem
that required the radio to meet the specification.

Obviously, all these specifications ultimately manifest themselves in
the form or numbers. You'll find them all over the various FCC and
Ofcom rules-n-regs. They're there to insure that you, your
accomplice, and other users can communicate without mutual
interference. There is no other way to insure reliable communications
without measurements and test equipment.

So, how do you make an RF tuning light bulb produce numbers? A light
meter?


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 18/10/2018 01:35, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 14:32:20 +0000, Spike
wrote:

The clash of cultures between the open-minded out-of-the-box thinker,
and a rules-and-regulations-trump-everything engineer. We have the
latter type on UKRA too, more's the pity. Then there's those that don't
know a sideband from a sideburn, waving their 'Vouvray for our side'
banners. In all senses of the word.

I guess it's too late to put you back into your box. Yes, I'm one of
those rules-n-regs types. I've even been involved in manufacturing a
few standards. Since you have an open mind, I hope you don't mind if
I pour some reasons why we have rules-n-regs into your wide open mind.

diversion into a side-topic snipped

So, how do you make an RF tuning light bulb produce numbers? A light
meter?

By calculation, old boy, by calculation. Don't you do calculations in
the US?


--
Spike

"Nearly all men can stand adversity,
but if you want to test a man's character,
give him an internet group to manage"

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 08:09:01 +0000, Spike
wrote:

On 18/10/2018 01:35, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

diversion into a side-topic snipped

It wasn't a diversion, but if you don't want to discuss it, that's
fine. If you have an allergy or an aversion to numbers, that's also
fine. I'll try not to mention any numbers if you feel threatened.
Fear of numbers (numerophobia or arithmophobia) is amazingly common
these days as we transition from an analog world to a digital world.
Usually, it is fear of some specific number that causes a problem.
However, there are individuals, such as politicians, who fear all
numbers. These might help:
https://www.fearof.net/fear-of-numbers-phobia-numerophobia-or-arithmophobia/
"How To Overcome Fear Of Numbers"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKPaeb6nmsw (2:00)

So, how do you make an RF tuning light bulb produce numbers? A light
meter?

By calculation, old boy, by calculation. Don't you do calculations in
the US?

Well, last time I checked, calculations are done using numbers. What
numbers are you using to calculate and how did you conjur them? Do
your light bulbs include a brightness indicator?

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 08:09:01 +0000, Spike
wrote:

On 18/10/2018 01:35, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

diversion into a side-topic snipped

It wasn't a diversion, but if you don't want to discuss it, that's
fine. If you have an allergy or an aversion to numbers, that's also
fine. I'll try not to mention any numbers if you feel threatened.
Fear of numbers (numerophobia or arithmophobia) is amazingly common
these days as we transition from an analog world to a digital world.
Usually, it is fear of some specific number that causes a problem.
However, there are individuals, such as politicians, who fear all
numbers. These might help:
https://www.fearof.net/fear-of-numbers-phobia-numerophobia-or-arithmophobia/
"How To Overcome Fear Of Numbers"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKPaeb6nmsw (2:00)

So, how do you make an RF tuning light bulb produce numbers? A light
meter?

By calculation, old boy, by calculation. Don't you do calculations in
the US?

Well, last time I checked, calculations are done using numbers. What
numbers are you using to calculate and how did you conjur them? Do
your light bulbs include a brightness indicator?

You can compare the brightness of two similar lightbulbs with a moderate
amount of precision. You just have to take care that the bulb is not
changing the thing you're measuring too much.



--

Roger Hayter

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 19:22:02 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 08:09:01 +0000, Spike
wrote:

On 18/10/2018 01:35, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

diversion into a side-topic snipped

It wasn't a diversion, but if you don't want to discuss it, that's
fine. If you have an allergy or an aversion to numbers, that's also
fine. I'll try not to mention any numbers if you feel threatened.
Fear of numbers (numerophobia or arithmophobia) is amazingly common
these days as we transition from an analog world to a digital world.
Usually, it is fear of some specific number that causes a problem.
However, there are individuals, such as politicians, who fear all
numbers. These might help:
https://www.fearof.net/fear-of-numbers-phobia-numerophobia-or-arithmophobia/
"How To Overcome Fear Of Numbers"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKPaeb6nmsw (2:00)

So, how do you make an RF tuning light bulb produce numbers? A light
meter?

By calculation, old boy, by calculation. Don't you do calculations in
the US?

Well, last time I checked, calculations are done using numbers. What
numbers are you using to calculate and how did you conjur them? Do
your light bulbs include a brightness indicator?

You can compare the brightness of two similar lightbulbs with a moderate
amount of precision. You just have to take care that the bulb is not
changing the thing you're measuring too much.

Sure. The standard candle used to measure the distance to a star in
astronomy is such a measurement. The problem is that the standard
candle is great for comparison measurements, it much also be
calibrated against a known illumination source. Finding a light bulb
with a known specific brightness and suitable for making a comparison
does not seem very easy. Same with "similar" light bulbs. One would
still need to calibrate the standard light bulb in some manner. Might
as well use a lux meter.

"Standard candles"
http://www.astro.ex.ac.uk/people/hatchell/rinr/candles.pdf

Note that I'm ignoring the change in filament resistance at different
illumination levels with adds some unwanted non-linearity to the light
bulb power measurement.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 19:22:02 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 08:09:01 +0000, Spike
wrote:

On 18/10/2018 01:35, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

diversion into a side-topic snipped

It wasn't a diversion, but if you don't want to discuss it, that's
fine. If you have an allergy or an aversion to numbers, that's also
fine. I'll try not to mention any numbers if you feel threatened.
Fear of numbers (numerophobia or arithmophobia) is amazingly common
these days as we transition from an analog world to a digital world.
Usually, it is fear of some specific number that causes a problem.
However, there are individuals, such as politicians, who fear all
numbers. These might help:
https://www.fearof.net/fear-of-numbe...ia-or-arithmop
hobia/ "How To Overcome Fear Of Numbers"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKPaeb6nmsw (2:00)

So, how do you make an RF tuning light bulb produce numbers? A light
meter?

By calculation, old boy, by calculation. Don't you do calculations in
the US?

Well, last time I checked, calculations are done using numbers. What
numbers are you using to calculate and how did you conjur them? Do
your light bulbs include a brightness indicator?

You can compare the brightness of two similar lightbulbs with a moderate
amount of precision. You just have to take care that the bulb is not
changing the thing you're measuring too much.

Sure. The standard candle used to measure the distance to a star in
astronomy is such a measurement. The problem is that the standard
candle is great for comparison measurements, it much also be
calibrated against a known illumination source. Finding a light bulb
with a known specific brightness and suitable for making a comparison
does not seem very easy. Same with "similar" light bulbs. One would
still need to calibrate the standard light bulb in some manner. Might
as well use a lux meter.

"Standard candles"
http://www.astro.ex.ac.uk/people/hatchell/rinr/candles.pdf

Note that I'm ignoring the change in filament resistance at different
illumination levels with adds some unwanted non-linearity to the light
bulb power measurement.

You don't have to measure the brightness, you just alter and measure the
DC power to one bulb while comparing it with the RF illuminated one.


--

Roger Hayter