Richard Clark wrote:
"If it delivers no energy, "it" still exists, but so does some other
"it" exist with an equal counter impulse."

We can have an incident and reflected wave or an incident and reflected
impulse. The reflection is not contemporaneous with the incident in
their generation. The reflection was generated earlier and is on its way
back. Power generation remains constant regardless of wave interference,
at least until the reflection arrives at a point where it interferes
with generation.

Complete cancellation leaves zero energy on the path of the cancelled
wave. "It" isn`t "two opposite somethimgs". "It" is zero. Energy
cancellation on one path redistributes the energy on other paths or
directions.

Power is energy generated at some rate. A fixed rate means that after
total cancellation, redistrubited energy is the total, and cancelled
energy is zero. You can`t have your cake and eat it too (to coin an
expression).

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

Richard Harrison wrote:
You can`t have your cake and eat it too (to coin an expression).

That must be the conservation of cake principle. :-)
--
73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:01:38 -0500, (Richard
Harrison) wrote:

Complete cancellation leaves zero energy on the path of the cancelled
wave. "It" isn`t "two opposite somethimgs". "It" is zero. Energy
cancellation on one path redistributes the energy on other paths or
directions.

Hi Richard,

I see you prefer to look at the world like King Lear and mumble
"Nothing begets nothing" then. This is all fine and well, but it
leads to unnecessary elaborations like:

Power is energy generated at some rate.

It certainly is, but Power has nothing to do with cancellation except
as a proof of two wave's energies combining to nothing. This is not a
"Nothing begets nothing" argument. Two energies pass without
interaction unless there is a load.

: A fixed rate means that after
total cancellation, redistrubited energy is the total,

It was, is, and will always be the same total, that is the meaning of
conservation of energy. Time alters nothing but the ability to push a
load around to map the distribution of power. Power is the summation
of all energies into a load.

and cancelled energy is zero.

There is no such thing as cancelled energy short of a Nuclear folding
of the universe. No, the total contribution of two energies into a
load is zero power. Each of those energies remains to contribute to
all fields or they would never propagate.

You can`t have your cake and eat it too (to coin an
expression).

Then you need to make your choice, are you eating (power), or are you
having (energy)? To attempt to say they both live by the same rules
is going to leave frosting on your face.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 07:51:24 -0500, Cecil Moore
wrote:
As Walter Maxwell said

Walt is perfectly capable of carrying his own water.

Richard Clark wrote:
Two energies pass without interaction unless there is a load.

The exception to that statement is two coherent waves
traveling an identical path in the same direction. If
the two waves are of equal magnitudes and opposite phases,
they cancel completely in their original direction of
travel. In a transmission line, their combined energy
components reverse direction in order to satisfy the
conservation of energy principle. In the absence of
any additional sources or loads, destructive interference
energy must exactly equal constructive interference energy.

The above can occur at a lossless impedance discontinuity
in a transmission line - no load required.

Power is the summation of all energies into a load.

Often power is simply the joules/sec existing at a unit-
area plane or passing a point on a transmission line. The
power-flow (Poynting) vector doesn't require a load. All
it requires is an EM wave.
--
73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:50:41 -0500, Cecil Moore
wrote:
energy components
name them

Richard Clark wrote:

Cecil Moore wrote:
As Walter Maxwell said

Walt is perfectly capable of carrying his own water.

If he does, you will probably accuse him of beating
his own drum. :-) Walt, in the past few days, pointed
out to me that what I thought was my slightly original
thought, was actually published in "Reflections",
based on an Oct. '73 QST article and on earlier
references from 1942 and 1947.
--
73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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Richard Clark wrote:

Cecil Moore wrote:
energy components

name them

Well, it would be easier if you didn't delete the
context. I assume you are talking about the energy
components associated with the canceled waves, traveling
rearward before the cancellation and traveling forward
after the cancellation where the cancellation is a
continuous process (until source power is turned off).

In s-parameter terms, the two joules/sec components are
(s11*a1)^2 and (s12*a2)^2 when b1^2=0 as explained in the
HP Ap Note.

In ham terms, they are Pfor1(rho^2) and Pref2(1-rho^2)
where Pfor1 is the forward-traveling source power incident
upon the impedance discontinuity and Pref2 is the rearward-
traveling reflected power incident upon the impedance
discontinuity from the other direction.

Note that I am using common usage terms for "forward power"
and "reflected power" since their units are watts. I would
normally talk about "forward energy" and "reflected energy"
to avoid the wrath of the purists. :-)

In terms of my article, they are P3 and P4 whe

P3 = Pfor1(rho^2) and P4 = Pref2(1-rho^2)

Pref1 = P3 + P4 - 2*Sqrt(P3*P4) = 0
--
73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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Richard Clark wrote:
"There is no such thing as cancelled energy short of a Nuclear folding
of the universe."

Most would agree to energy conservation.

Young`s experiment produces alternating bright and dark nands.

The bright bands are brighter because they contain redirected power that
would have appeared in the dark bands as well as the power idirectly
lluminating the bright bands. In the bright band spaces, power is
in-phase from both source slits. In the dark spaces, power is
180-degrees put of phase between the illuminations from the two slits.
This is caused by the distances from the two sources.

At the risk of diverting attention from the topic, I`ll indulge in
analogy. An impedance bridge has a null meter to indicate balance.
Superposition says a circuit with two (or more) sources may be analyzed
(with proper restrictions) as if there were only one source in the
system. That is, respones to the various sources may be analyzed
separately to determine the overall circuit response.

A balanced bridge may be considered as two voltage dividers set for the
same ratio and providing identical voltages to each terminal of the null
meter. Each divider taken alone provides the same fractiom of the bridge
generator`s voltage. Alone, each divider can supply current through the
null meter.

Equal and opposite ciurrents don`t flow through the null meter. No
current flows through the null meter because with equal and opposite
voltages on each side of the null meter there is no difference of
potential to evoke a current flow.

Given a perfect transmission line with a complete reflrction, a length
can be found which produces a reflection with with the same phase and
magnitude as that of the generator. With equal and same phase volts on
either side of the generator/line junction, current does not flow. No
potential exists to evoke a current flow. This is the same as a very
high impedance indeed.

Best Regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:37:51 -0500, Cecil Moore
wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote:
energy components
name them
Well, it would be easier if you didn't delete the context.
their combined energy components reverse direction

The deletion was deliberate because energy does not move and is an
irrelevant embroidery of the discussion. Of course, if this is about
rolling batteries across the floor, I've yet to see how much "power
has been delivered" revealed in these threads.