Noise level between two ant types
 

Gene Fuller wrote:
I forgot that rain drops and antenna wires are identical. The behavior
of two identical capacitors certainly covers all charge transfer phenomena.

I didn't say what I wanted to say in my last reply to this
posting so I canceled my first reply and am substituting
this one for it. It the older reply made it off my server,
please ignore it.

You obviously misunderstood what I said. I didn't say the charge
equalized between the charged particle and the wire. What I said
is after the charge is deposited on the wire and the particle
that did the depositing of the charge is long gone, the charge
deposited by that particle will equalize between two identical
dipole elements that are link coupled.

Let's say we have a perfectly symmetrical link-coupled dipole
and we deposit one coulomb on one element. Please explain the
laws of physics that prohibit those two dipole elements from
equalizing at the same charge.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Noise level between two ant types
 

wrote:
When we look at this, it is almost laughable the very people claiming
corona can't be the root cause of what is commonly called p-static
noise are often arguing quad or quad like antenna short the noise of
particles striking the antenna to ground, and thus can't have corona.

W8JI: Tibet doesn't exist.

W5DXP: Please prove it.

W8JI: I have seen China but I have never seen Tibet.

Substitute "corona" for China and "charged particle
noise" for Tibet and you will completely understand
W8JI's argument.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Noise level between two ant types
 

Cecil Moore wrote:
Apples and oranges, Tom. Since nobody has argued that high
humidity prevents corona during transmitting, your statement
is just an unfair obfuscation of the facts. On a clear-sky,
high-humidity day, the high humidity prevents corona on *receiving*
antennas. The antenna at HCJB did *NOT* report any corona problems
during receive.


Typical of Cecil Moore. Do you think you are the center of attention
and no one else is worth talking to? I wasn't even talking to you!

Look back Cecil. K0TAR said there couldn't be corona in the rain.
That's incorrect.

Speak when spoken to Cecil.

73 Tom

Noise level between two ant types
 

Noise level between two ant types
 

wrote
Typical of Cecil Moore. Do you think you are the center of attention
and no one else is worth talking to? I wasn't even talking to you!

Look back Cecil. K0TAR said there couldn't be corona in the rain.
That's incorrect.

Speak when spoken to Cecil.

73 Tom



Ooooops!
Condx is worsening. Now besides being scientwist's guru, purporting to be
the Hitler of free speech.
Cecil, can you voluntarily relinquish your center of attention title to the
Allknowing One, please, in the name of preserving salinity of the Internet?
Shades of Freaktenna. :-)

Happy Father's Day to all brave fathers!

Yuri da BUm
not from Tibet, but lived in Zemplin
(free dB to anyone identifying the prefix)

Noise level between two ant types
 

Tom Ring wrote:

I not convinced that corona is what I'm hearing, but I'm no longer
convinced it's not, either.

That's good. You shouldn't be convinced. Especially if it is something
just accepted and circulated without experimental results confirming
it.

There are a lot of odd ideas that are deeply rooted, especially when it
comes to electric fields, noise, and charges.

Look at the shielded loop thread that just went on! Someone started a
whole thread just to show the shield blocked electric fields and
"noise", when all the shield really does is help balance the antenna
and eleimnate common mode responses.

The "dc path eliminates noise" and the "noise comes from each particle
hitting the antenna and a dc path reduces it" are nearly as far
fetched.

The potential difference is between the earth and space above the
earth. Clouds can also become "charged" and have a large potential
difference to earth and anything connected to earth, especially in bad
weather. That's why the world has lightning hits!

Anything connected to earth and sticking up and out in the air will
have a huge potential difference between it and anything in the space
around it at the same height or higher.

The sharper, higher, and more extended the conductive protrusions are
the worse the problem is, and the best ground connection in the world
won't reduce it (it can actually only make it worse). Rain or snow or
dust won't make the problem less either. Neither will high humidity.

I spent a lot of time and money trying to fix what I thought was the
problem (the particles making noise) until I learned the folklore was
wrong.

73 Tom

Noise level between two ant types
 

Yuri Blanarovich wrote:

Ooooops!
Condx is worsening. Now besides being scientwist's guru, purporting to be
the Hitler of free speech.
Cecil, can you voluntarily relinquish your center of attention title to the
Allknowing One, please, in the name of preserving salinity of the Internet?
Shades of Freaktenna. :-)

Happy Father's Day to all brave fathers!

Yuri da BUm
not from Tibet, but lived in Zemplin
(free dB to anyone identifying the prefix)

.....and as Dr. Phil would say, "How's that shielded loop thread doing
Yuri? Is it working for you?"

Noise level between two ant types
 

Yuri Blanarovich wrote:
wrote
Look back Cecil. K0TAR said there couldn't be corona in the rain.

K0TAR replied:
Hang on, I didn't say "couldn't", ...

Speak when spoken to Cecil.

God has obviously died and left W8JI in charge of r.r.a.a. :-)

Cecil, can you voluntarily relinquish your center of attention title to the
Allknowing One, please, in the name of preserving salinity of the Internet?

Just as soon as He lives up to His omniscient self-image. :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Noise level between two ant types
 

wrote:
The "dc path eliminates noise" and the "noise comes from each particle
hitting the antenna and a dc path reduces it" are nearly as far
fetched.

I already explained that to you, Tom. Perhaps you missed it.
In the following diagrams, CH is the charge transferred to
the antenna by a charged particle or any other means.

Given a non-folded dipole, any equalizing of the charge between
the two identical dipole elements must flow through the link
where the noise is picked up by the receiver.

-------CH------+ +---------------
| |
/ /
| |
Link to
receiver

Turning the non-folded dipole into a folded dipole provides
a *local DC path* between the two elements. Most of the
noise will follow that DC path between elements instead of
traveling down the transmission line, through the link, and
back up the transmission line. Hint: Ohm's law.

DC path between elements
+-------------------------------+
+-------CH-----+ +--------------+
| |
/ /
| |
Link to
Receiver

You avoided replying to this last time. One wonders why.
Please explain why you think the charge on the folded dipole
would not take the DC path of least resistance.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Noise level between two ant types
 

wrote:

If the noise is at a different frequency than the good signal, then the
receiver itself will sort it all out.

There really wasn't any good way to answer an idea so fatally flawed. I
ignored it thinking you would figure it out on your own later, or that
Yuri would help you get a different perspective on things.

73 Tom

By the way Cecil, I'm absolutely serious.

I was very surprised you didn't think through what you drew and what
you proposed before posting it.

I expected even Yuri would catch the mistake you made and correct you.

73 Tom