How long after applying filament voltage till the 813 is ready to transmit?
Is it like a 3-500 or do I have to wait 30 seconds or so?

Rick K2XT

"Rick" wrote in message
...
How long after applying filament voltage till the 813 is ready to
transmit? Is it like a 3-500 or do I have to wait 30 seconds or so?

Rick K2XT

Apply filament, bias, screen and plate Voltage and start talking.

W4ZCB

Wait at least 30 seconds. The 813 doesn't have instant heating filaments
like the 3-500z.

73

Ralph VE3BBM
"Rick" wrote in message
...
How long after applying filament voltage till the 813 is ready to
transmit? Is it like a 3-500 or do I have to wait 30 seconds or so?

Rick K2XT

The 813 filament is constructed of thoriated tungsten. One of the
characteristics of this type filament is "instant" on.

See http://www.w8ji.com/vacuum_tubes_and...e_failures.htm and look
under thoriated filament.

You do want the filament to heat up and that probably means a second or two.
I remember Bill Orr wrote an article about failure of the 3-500 ( which is
considered instant on also). Some individual had a number of tubes fail and
kept sending them back under warranty. Finally Eimac called him and learned
that the chap was turning the tube filaments off between transmissions and
turning them on immediately before each transmission.

So, do not use either tube for break in cw by keying the filament.

73, Colin K7FM

COLIN LAMB wrote:
Finally Eimac called him and learned
that the chap was turning the tube filaments off between transmissions and
turning them on immediately before each transmission.

So, do not use either tube for break in cw by keying the filament.

73, Colin K7FM




I have to wonder what the keying waveform might have looked like.
Probably added a unique sound to his signal. Something like a modified
banana-boat swing, for lack of a better description?
de K3HVG

On Tue, 1 Apr 2008, Rick wrote:

How long after applying filament voltage till the 813 is ready to transmit?
Is it like a 3-500 or do I have to wait 30 seconds or so?

Rick K2XT



When the glow is up to bright orange, then you are ready. If you apply the
filament voltage without "management" (i.e. a slow increase over, say 5-10
seconds), the tube should be ready for transmit in, like, about 1-2
seconds. In a heater cathode (rather than a filament cathode), you need to
wait for that thin "coat" to come up to a dull orange and that can be half
a minute or so depending on the tube.

In article m,
A wrote:


On Tue, 1 Apr 2008, Rick wrote:

How long after applying filament voltage till the 813 is ready to transmit?
Is it like a 3-500 or do I have to wait 30 seconds or so?


When the glow is up to bright orange, then you are ready. If you apply the
filament voltage without "management" (i.e. a slow increase over, say 5-10
seconds), the tube should be ready for transmit in, like, about 1-2
seconds. In a heater cathode (rather than a filament cathode), you need to
wait for that thin "coat" to come up to a dull orange and that can be half
a minute or so depending on the tube.

Note that slow turn-on will radically increase the lifetime of these tubes
if you're using them below full power level. An inrush current limiter
in series with the filament only costs a dollar or two and can easily pay
for itself a hundred times over.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

An inrush current limiter
in series with the filament only costs a dollar or two and can easily pay
for itself a hundred times over.

Hang on here. Do you know what 813s cost these days? Still only around $10
!!
I got two at a hamfest last week. Got them hooked up to a filament xfmr,
and let them cook for an hour. Boy are they sure beautiful sitting there
glowing in the dark. They seem to be saying to me, "Hey we've been waiting
for 60 years to get a chance to make some RF!"
I also have 2kv waiting. So next step is to jury rig them up and see if
they draw plate current, with a little bias control, before I commit to
putting them in a new homebrew amp.
Since I just finished an 8877 amp this winter I am a little cautious and
aprehensive about hamfest tubes, because when I first fired up the 8877 with
4kv I got just that - fire. Seems the "I think it is good" tube a guy gave
me actually had a grid-plate short. Took a couple weeks to clean up THAT
mess. Fun stuff.
Thanks for all the replies, OTs.

73

Rick K2XT

On Thu, 3 Apr 2008, Scott Dorsey wrote:

In article m,
A wrote:


On Tue, 1 Apr 2008, Rick wrote:

How long after applying filament voltage till the 813 is ready to transmit?
Is it like a 3-500 or do I have to wait 30 seconds or so?


When the glow is up to bright orange, then you are ready. If you apply the
filament voltage without "management" (i.e. a slow increase over, say 5-10
seconds), the tube should be ready for transmit in, like, about 1-2
seconds. In a heater cathode (rather than a filament cathode), you need to
wait for that thin "coat" to come up to a dull orange and that can be half
a minute or so depending on the tube.

Note that slow turn-on will radically increase the lifetime of these tubes

1. I recall a research topic handout mentioned in a QST from maybe 2
decades ago that said this but did not give actual numbers. Does anyone
have something specific in terms of what they call "radical"?

2. I also recall relatively little _actual_ discussion, from my SWLing
days on the ham bands 50 years ago, of people complaining about blowing
out their filaments sooner than they would be happy about, so do any of
you guys have any real life experience with this (instead of passing on
"conventional wisdom" that has been passed on as conventional wisdom by
everyone else that passes on conventional wisdom)?

3. Usually tube/filament lifetime is something like "insurance"
statistics. There will be an "S"-shaped curve with some characteristics
and this means a lot of filament lifetime experience will only show up in
fairly large populations.

4. For the record, I bought, some years ago, three Chinese 813s, brand
new, and after six months, one of two of them blew a filament (I barely
noticed it since at the end of the QSO I noticed my plate current was
running half of what is should have been) in my pair-813 linear (with
variac on the filament transformer).

5. Inrush currents will often be, already, limited to some degree because
filament cold resistance will be lower than hot resistance and most of the
secondary voltage will appear across secondary resistance which will be
almost identical either warm or cold. For power transformer powered
linears (etc), the HV is dumping into a string of electrolytics thus
building in, perhaps, 100-200 (?) milliseconds of "delayed" or "limited"
inrush current because that part of the transformer is
temporarily "overloaded."

6. How many of you guys with 3-500Z and 811 amplifiers (572-Bs, 4-X, etc,
and there are a lot out there) are replacing one or more of your tubes every
year or two because one or more filaments won't light up the next time you
turn on your rig? How many of you guys have the same tubes in your
amplifiers for a decade or more and the filaments are still lighting up
just fine and RF output (and not on "pushed" tubes, either) is also just
fine?

Guys, how about some extended discussion on this? And, I've had a few of
all of these tubes at one time or the other almost since the beginning of
my haming before 1960 and never lost a filament till the Chinese 813.

P.S. The Chinese 813 had crappy soldering work on the pins at the bottom
of the tube, too. The other Chinese 813 is still running fine. I have some
Chinese 811s, too, and their pins are better soldered. Russkie 811s look
and work fine, too. I replaced the burned out 813 with a used 813 from a
hamfest (an old brand I forgot) but it has a darker "tinge" inside, but
the RF amps out are just fine.


if you're using them below full power level. An inrush current limiter
in series with the filament only costs a dollar or two and can easily pay
for itself a hundred times over.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

A wrote:

1. I recall a research topic handout mentioned in a QST from maybe 2
decades ago that said this but did not give actual numbers. Does anyone
have something specific in terms of what they call "radical"?

On the 813, I don't know. But Eimac used to have a little handout on
filament regulation of their planar grid tubes; it talked both about
small static increases in current severely shortening lifetime as well
as inrush current issues. It's worth looking up and is probably on the
Eimac website.

2. I also recall relatively little _actual_ discussion, from my SWLing
days on the ham bands 50 years ago, of people complaining about blowing
out their filaments sooner than they would be happy about, so do any of
you guys have any real life experience with this (instead of passing on
"conventional wisdom" that has been passed on as conventional wisdom by
everyone else that passes on conventional wisdom)?

I usually lose filaments before I lose emission on power tubes, but I
tend to run well below rated power. If I were running at rated power,
I might feel very differently.

3. Usually tube/filament lifetime is something like "insurance"
statistics. There will be an "S"-shaped curve with some characteristics
and this means a lot of filament lifetime experience will only show up in
fairly large populations.

4. For the record, I bought, some years ago, three Chinese 813s, brand
new, and after six months, one of two of them blew a filament (I barely
noticed it since at the end of the QSO I noticed my plate current was
running half of what is should have been) in my pair-813 linear (with
variac on the filament transformer).

This is probably the result of a manufacturing defect in the filament,
and inrush-current limiting may not have done much good anyway there.

5. Inrush currents will often be, already, limited to some degree because
filament cold resistance will be lower than hot resistance and most of the
secondary voltage will appear across secondary resistance which will be
almost identical either warm or cold. For power transformer powered
linears (etc), the HV is dumping into a string of electrolytics thus
building in, perhaps, 100-200 (?) milliseconds of "delayed" or "limited"
inrush current because that part of the transformer is
temporarily "overloaded."

Could well be... the sag due to charging the caps could well provide
effective soft startup. It might be worth measuring to see.

6. How many of you guys with 3-500Z and 811 amplifiers (572-Bs, 4-X, etc,
and there are a lot out there) are replacing one or more of your tubes every
year or two because one or more filaments won't light up the next time you
turn on your rig? How many of you guys have the same tubes in your
amplifiers for a decade or more and the filaments are still lighting up
just fine and RF output (and not on "pushed" tubes, either) is also just
fine?

I would suspect more people lose tubes due to bad emission than to filament
failures, but I also suspect people tend to be running finals hard out
there.

Guys, how about some extended discussion on this? And, I've had a few of
all of these tubes at one time or the other almost since the beginning of
my haming before 1960 and never lost a filament till the Chinese 813.

P.S. The Chinese 813 had crappy soldering work on the pins at the bottom
of the tube, too. The other Chinese 813 is still running fine. I have some
Chinese 811s, too, and their pins are better soldered. Russkie 811s look
and work fine, too. I replaced the burned out 813 with a used 813 from a
hamfest (an old brand I forgot) but it has a darker "tinge" inside, but
the RF amps out are just fine.

Which factory did the Chinese one come from? I have had nothing but trouble
with Shugang products, but I don't know if the 813s are from Shugang or not.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."