Exactly my point. When arguing, uh... discussing... uh, having a
food-fight over politics the truth is a great deal more useful than
wishful thinking and shoddy anecdotes. However it is not terribly
popular nor terribly effective at changing 'popular perception' as any
campaign manager will tell you. For that, one needs mud, deception and
many shades and distortions of 'facts'.

The damnable part of all this is that none of it was actually
necessary. But 'we' are in it now. Clinton could not keep it in his
pants and got impeached and survived the experience. GWB could not keep
in in his pants, and 2000+ American Military are dead along with
thousands of American civilians, and tens of thousands of innocents of
several stripes. Which do you _honestly_ think is worse?

Never get into a fight with a guy littler than you are. If you win you
are a bully, if you lose you are a bum. And either way the other kids
in the playground either fear or ridicule you. If everything we need to
know we learned in Kindergarten, that is one lesson missed on Capitol
Hill & the White House.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote PA

In article . com, "Peter
Wieck" wrote:

The damnable part of all this is that none of it was actually
necessary. But 'we' are in it now. Clinton could not keep it in his
pants and got impeached and survived the experience. GWB could not keep
in in his pants, and 2000+ American Military are dead along with
thousands of American civilians,

"thousands of American civilians", as a result of the war in Iraq? Isn't
that shading the truth just a bit?


Regards,

John Byrns


Surf my web pages at, http://users.rcn.com/jbyrns/

WHOOPS!

You are correct. Civilian contractor deaths are ~285,
collateral-in-region (Working in Saudi, Jordan, Turkey, Qatar and
elsewhere, dead from specific attacks by al Qaeda on Civilians) exceeds
1000. All 'western' civilian deaths contractor or otherwise in Iraq
also exceeds 1000. Mixed up too many numbers. Don't forget I was ~200
yards from the Oasis/Petroleum Center incidents last year in Al-Khobar
when the (American) wife of a friend of mine was shot up very badly
(she survived), and many were killed.

Point being that none of it was/is necessary, and any positive results
are dubious at best.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

In article .com, "Peter
Wieck" wrote:

WHOOPS!

You are correct. Civilian contractor deaths are ~285,
collateral-in-region (Working in Saudi, Jordan, Turkey, Qatar and
elsewhere, dead from specific attacks by al Qaeda on Civilians) exceeds
1000.

Over what time period? Why doesn't the media play this up, it sounds like
an opportunity they would love?


Regards,

John Byrns


Surf my web pages at, http://users.rcn.com/jbyrns/

Since the start of hostilities on Gulf II. I thought that was pretty
much the only time-period under discussion at the moment

And they do. They really do. Most do not want to hear it, however. It
was on NPR some mornings ago, part of a 'regular' weekly feature. I am
thinking it was last Thursday, but it could have been any of the
mid-week days last week that I heard it.

Generally, I tend to discount most of the privately developed body
counts unless sourced from two independent entities. For instance,
Iraqi civilan deaths range from ~25,000+ (US military unofficial
estimates based on reported deaths from publicized incidents) to
100,000 (The Lancet) to 250,000 (local sources not to be trusted at
all).

And "the media" is hardly pro or anti anything in its entirety.
Certainly Fox is different from CNN, and Sky makes Fox look like a
Liberal Bastion. It's all in accordance to what you wish to hear, what
you wish to believe, and how much you choose to question "Received
Wisdom". But then, most of us are acutely uncomfortable when we are
confused by information that conflicts with our carefully managed and
protected opinion. We would rather vilify the source of that
information than allow our opinion to change.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

"John Byrns" wrote in message
...
In article . com, "Peter
Wieck" wrote:

The damnable part of all this is that none of it was actually
necessary. But 'we' are in it now. Clinton could not keep it in his
pants and got impeached and survived the experience. GWB could not keep
in in his pants, and 2000+ American Military are dead along with
thousands of American civilians,

"thousands of American civilians", as a result of the war in Iraq? Isn't
that shading the truth just a bit?

no more than duping thousands of neglected, uneducated kids into fighting a
war and justifying it on the basis that they are no longer civilians...

randy

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:19:07 -0700, "xrongor"
wrote:


"John Byrns" wrote in message
...
In article . com, "Peter
Wieck" wrote:

The damnable part of all this is that none of it was actually
necessary. But 'we' are in it now. Clinton could not keep it in his
pants and got impeached and survived the experience. GWB could not keep
in in his pants, and 2000+ American Military are dead along with
thousands of American civilians,

"thousands of American civilians", as a result of the war in Iraq? Isn't
that shading the truth just a bit?

no more than duping thousands of neglected, uneducated kids into fighting a
war and justifying it on the basis that they are no longer civilians...

randy




Face it! You and Peter are just sissies!

Sissies....

Beer, with all due respect, if you say so. And if you mean by "sissies"
that I (we) value human life over testosterone poisoning, I would be
proud of the designation.

Be well, have a good Thanksgiving!

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

On 23 Nov 2005 07:01:14 -0800, "Peter Wieck" wrote:

Sissies....

Beer, with all due respect, if you say so. And if you mean by "sissies"
that I (we) value human life over testosterone poisoning, I would be
proud of the designation.

Be well, have a good Thanksgiving!

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA


Good for you! We go to the middle east for 2 different reasons that is
for damn sure. It has nothing to do with testosterone. It has
everything to do with supporting your country. I think in your case
you should have stayed with the people you love so dearly. We sure
don't need or want you here.

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Samuel Johnson, 1775

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA