On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 05:43:31 -0700, Telspam Electronics
wrote in
. com:

On Jul 10, 7:16 pm, Frank Gilliland
wrote:
Such a procedure is pointless unless the assistant is monitoring on
the second and third harmonics.

Frank lives in a black & white world. The real world is gray Frank...
and isn't perfect. I agree that in a perfect world... one would use a
scope to get to the target 100% modulation. In the real gray world...
not everyone has a scope.. and therefore would have to resort to the
next best method... the listening assistant. After all you always talk
about the "empirical" method being so good... are you getting away
from that thinking now?.. lol


I addressed the issues without ranting. I laid out logical arguments
in a clear and concise manner. I used verifiable facts to support my
conclusions. I posted well within the protocol that -YOU- established.
But it's clear that when you are proven wrong all you do is break from
your own protocol and go into a "sour grapes" mode of damage control.
Well, no more clemency for you, Brian. In fact, why don't you go back
to ignoring me again.... it's more fun that way.

You can get an RF probe for just about any DMM. It won't show
waveforms, but it costs a -lot- less than a scope, and in this
application is more accurate. As for a signal generator at the input,
any old audio oscillator will do, even the output of the sound card on
your computer. Just run it through a pot to get the desired voltage.
And the manual will cost you all of $10 on ebay. So you can keep your
scope and your gray world -- I prefer a little more contrast in my
reality, especially when it's easier, more accurate, and a lot less
expensive.

And BTW, I live in Washington, not California. I've stated where I
live about a jillion times since you've been in this group. Learn to
read.

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:59:33 -0700, Telspam Electronics
wrote in
. com:

Apart from the question raised over the typical radio settings,
was the idea of the processor not to reduce the dynamic
range of the audio, rather than simply increase the
maximum modulation?

No, VoiceMax greatly compresses the audio.


And with less than 1% distortion, no less!!! Except for the fact is
that compression -is- distortion. There are two types of distortion,
Brian: desireable and undesireable. Compression is one type of
desireable distortion, which is why manufacturers of REAL compressors
don't lie about their distortion specs. They stick it right out there
for the customer to see because that's what the circuit is designed to
do -- distort the signal. But in a -good- way.

The fact that you have never made that distinction throughout this
entire discussion (which has lasted about a year) proves, once again,
that you have no idea of what you are talking about.


You appear to be suggesting that this processor works by
the person turning their radio up.

What I'm saying is that to get the maximum benefit from VoiceMax...
one must have a radio that is capable of 100% modulation... before the
module is installed. If you have such a radio... then there is nothing
to be done but the installation. The redundant limiters (radio &
VoiceMax) will be transparent to the user.


Including the original AGC circuit?


The VoiceMax has built in limiting... so a
redundant system is not needed.

Unless, at some time, someone decides to remove the
processor? Maybe they don't like it, maybe they want a
standard radio, who knows - but I have heard of many
non-standard boards being removed for various reasons.
This may not be the person who fitted it, so they will be
totally unaware of the removal of important cricuits
within the radio.
Then they have a radio with no limiting.

True. If the radio's limiter is adjusted or disabled... one would have
to restore it to its original setting if the VoiceMax module is
removed. This is normally a very simple procedure as you are most
likely aware of.


Not at all. Your procedure requires cutting a trace, which is the most
common reason you can't find a decent used radio anymore. It's not
always a simple task to bridge a cut trace. It requires soldering, and
not everyone who can scratch a trace is capable of soldering. Are you
willing to pay the cost to repair the radio when the customer doesn't
like your processor? If not then that's a pretty ****ty deal.


It sounds like you have no plans to
open your radio... so VoiceMax is not for you.

This is where I start to get some serious concerns...
1. Do you really want to supply the customer, or simply
make up your own ideas and con people into buying them?

Don't understand this...


Yes you do, Brian. It's what you have done with all your products from
day one. Should I make a list of all the lies you have made trying to
sell your hacked wares? If I start now I might get done around.... oh,
say, around Christmas.....


2. If I had issues with a product I got from you, why should
I expect anything more than Vinnie got... a big "blow off"?

I didn't blow-off anyone.


Brian, you blow off anyone that provides proof that you are lying or
technically incompetent. That's been your SOP in this group since you
started spamming it over ten years ago.


I merely told Vinnie that if he didn't have
the expertise necessary to install the unit... and didn't want anyone
else opening his radio... that VoiceMax wasn't for him. What's wrong
with that?

The suggestion that you would not sell your product to
Frank also suggests a couple of things...
1. You have something to hide, something that Frank could find.
2. You have a limited customer base, and intend to keep it that
way - no selling through dealers, so you can control who is
allowed to buy one.

Frank has been a constant irritant here for years... yes years.


True, but only to those who spew technical voodoo and hocus-pocus. And
I'm proud of it.

I do, however, apologize for being so anti-illegal in the past -- the
FCC is impotent and the government so corrupt that nothing is going to
change until they are -forced- to change. It's too bad it has to work
that way. But I still have hope that maybe the next election will turn
things around.... Lou Dobbs in '08!!!


He is
a frustrated electronic technician in California


I am a broadcast engineer in Washington that earns a salary of $42K/y,
in addition to being a small business owner for almost 15 years, and
I'm finishing my Master's program this fall. Frustrated? "LOL!!!"


that doesn't like
anyone challenging any statement he makes.


On the contrary, anyone should feel free to challenge anything I say.
But you better be prepared to back it up with facts and logic -- none
of that "the world is gray" or "it's part of a bigger picture" crap.


As you see he very abusive/
abrasive.


Very true.


I certainly don't need... or want customers like that.


Yes you do, Brian. Because unlike you, I usually don't make statements
that I can't support with facts. And abusive or not, I'm usually
right. It's not so hard to do when you can suspend your typing long
enough to hit a couple books or search for a couple authoritative
references. So when a customer like me advocates a product then you
can bet your bottom dollar that it's good. For example:


Frank's CB Consumer Report for July '07:

The Mattco model SWR2 meter is small, portable and accurate. It's
also tough as nails; I've dropped mine countless times and it still
works great. Operation is very basic with just a FWD/REF switch and
CAL knob. Quality of materials and construction is excellent. The
metal box is painted in black crinkle enamel, and has two X-slots in
the back for mounting it permanently or even semi-permanently. The
only problem I've ever had was a loose meter face, and a little
epoxy cured it without breaking a sweat. This is one of the best SWR
meters I've ever owned, Bird included, and is the most used in my
shop.


Now do you really think your business would be -worse- if I posted
something like that about your processor? Of course not.


You're right... I will be distributing this device at first. After the
product catches on... I hope to work with some distribution channels.


What happened to "we"? Are you actually starting to take your pills
and keep your appointments?


You should know very well that I have no issues with you
personally, but these are the impressions I am getting. I
also doubt if you impressed Vinnie, a potential customer. How
many more will question your commitment to the customer?

I'm not here to impress anyone.


Well, you certainly accomplished -that- goal....


I also don't want to sell this device
to anyone that has reservations about the performance.


So you will only sell it to those who are convinced that it works
before they use it? before any independent testing? before the product
has been vetted by other consumers?

* |=| - SCAM ALERT - |=| *


Most of these
guys... Frank, Steveo, and some others are not potential customers...
they are spoilers. That is... and has been their mission all along.


The word is "skeptic", and yes I am. Your claims are preposterous,
just like those 6-inch magic antennas that get 15dB gain.


They are good in a way because they always play the "devils advocate"
and give me an opportunity to explain my device to others out there
that are interested... and smart enough to comprehend. Those people
are... and continue to be my customers.


Wrong. You prey on people who don't understand the meaning of the
false specifications you are spewing, and give them an explanation
that satisfies them just long enough to get the sale. You work on
people's lack of technical knowledge with a "too good to be true"
pitch before they learn why these things really -are- too good to be
true. You're a con artist, Brian. And you're BAD AT IT!!! "LOL!!!"

"Vinnie S." wrote...
Brian,

I apologize for starting a ****ing contest, as that was not my
intention. I was interested in testing it for you, but would
have rather had an externa box type unit. I did not mean
for this thread to go out of control.

Don't apologise, you simply stated what you would like. To most
businesses, that should be important feedback - market research.

Besides, there's nothing the regulars here enjoy more than a p1ss1ng
contest. Why do you think they are so keen on the beer... one has to
keep the bladder full, it gives you a competitive edge in the
p1ss1ng contests :~)

For me, an important issue is whether a company listen to the
customers. If they are unwilling to listen, before they have your
money, what chances will you have once they have your money?

Brian started this thread by advertising his product here. He must
expect some questions and comments. I have nothing against Brian,
but his replies do not fill me with confidence in the company or
product.


Regards,
Peter.
http://www.citizensband.radiouk.com/

"Telstar Electronics" wrote...
Apart from the question raised over the typical radio settings,
was the idea of the processor not to reduce the dynamic
range of the audio, rather than simply increase the
maximum modulation?

No, VoiceMax greatly compresses the audio.

Was that:

No it was not to reduce the dynamic range
or
Yes, it was to reduce the dynamic range

or, maybe,
"please stop using trick questions"


What I'm saying is that to get the maximum benefit from VoiceMax...
one must have a radio that is capable of 100% modulation...

So the manufacturers all set the modulation wrong, radios
should really be at 100%?

The problem I see is that most of the fitting will be done by
"rig doctors" and DIY CBers. You think you can trust these
people to correctly set the modulation at 100%?
If you asked 100 typical "rig doctors" and DIY CBers to adjust
their modulation to exactly 100%, how many do you really think
would be spot on?

Personally, I would prefer they settle for the 85% or 95%
(whatever the real figure on their radio), rather than risk
them f*cking it up.
But, maybe I am biased... due to all the hours spent putting
right all the damage done by such people.


True. If the radio's limiter is adjusted or disabled... one would have
to restore it to its original setting if the VoiceMax module is
removed. This is normally a very simple procedure as you are most
likely aware of.

Oh yes, especially if I had fitted it.
But, when I get a job in - remove this board - I don't have a clue
what the person who fitted it has done apart from connecting
the wires.
I may know what he should have done, but we are talking of
"rig doctors" here, what we on this side of the pond also
like to call "cowboys".

Yeeeharrrr
Pass me the poker from the fire, I want to solder this board in.
(yes, it has been known)

It sounds like you have no plans to
open your radio... so VoiceMax is not for you.

This is where I start to get some serious concerns...
1. Do you really want to supply the customer, or simply
make up your own ideas and con people into buying them?

Don't understand this...

How did you decide upon your choice of product and, in fact,
your whole marketing mix? Did research tell you that millions
of people are begging for a "quality" processor at a "quality"
price - enough to keep Telstar going with those $60 payments?

Did research tell you that they would prefer the hassle of
fitting it in the radio to "plug & play", even though plug-in
and battery operated accessories have sold for years?

Is the Voicemax what the customer has made clear that they
want, or what you have decided they will have?


I didn't blow-off anyone. I merely told Vinnie that if he didn't have
the expertise necessary to install the unit... and didn't want anyone
else opening his radio... that VoiceMax wasn't for him. What's wrong
with that?

Maybe it came across as rather curt, abrupt, and unwilling to
listen to what the customer wants.
Are you really that snowed under, with no product currently available,
that you cannot consider offering the option of the device as a plug
in accessory?

I don't know, you appear to be a small business. People trust large
well known companies with a long reputation (and TV advertising). They
are attracted to the small business by the way they can be so
flexible and accomodating. No need to ask the manager to ask a director
to bring it up at the next meeting - then pass it back the same way, so
you can come up with a plan and ask the manager to ask... etc.

There are companies that I have dealt with who will take on unusual
jobs just to keep a customer happy. They will even take on jobs as
loss-leaders, just to obtain or keep customers.


Frank has been a constant irritant here for years... yes years.

Frank and I have butted heads a few times, so I do know what he
can be like. However, if he wanted to by a product or service from
me, I would not hesitate to take his money and give him the same
service as any other customer.


He is a frustrated electronic technician in California that doesn't
like
anyone challenging any statement he makes.

Does anyone like being challenged in that way?
How do you feel about the challenges on this group... my comments,
for example? I am only being honest, saying how it appears
to me.
Maybe I have some things wrong about you, but you have the chance
to put them right or sort out any image issues... normal customers
may simply keep quiet and go elsewhere for their items.


You're right... I will be distributing this device at first. After the
product catches on... I hope to work with some distribution channels.

Will they be instructed not to sell any of your products, all one
of them, to Frank?


I'm not here to impress anyone. I also don't want to sell this device
to anyone that has reservations about the performance. Most of these
guys... Frank, Steveo, and some others are not potential customers...

Once you take out the trolls, Frank, Steveo and "some others", that
does not leave many on this group. If you then take out those who
need impressing before they part with hard-earned cash, then we
are starting to run a little short on people here.
Out of those few remaining *possible* postential customers, you
just turned one away.

Maybe this group is not for you, the time could surely be better
spent. Seriously, will any sales you make from this group really
pay for the time you have spent discussing the topic?

they are spoilers. That is... and has been their mission all along.
They are good in a way because they always play the "devils advocate"
and give me an opportunity to explain my device to others out there

You also have to be willing to listen. Several on this group
are simply saying it as they see it. If they are wrong, then
maybe you need to look at image and perception.

Just as people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones,
people stood in quicksand should not throw punches.
Maybe time to cut loose and run, unless this group is your only
source of potential customers.

Now, there's a point... how do you effectively advertise a CB
product to the remaining enthusiasts, is there a CB magazine
in America with a decent circulation?
None now on this side of the pond, the last one got taken over
by some Hammy types, who systematically *******ized it for
their own gratification. Or at least that is how it seems :~)

Now, if you really want to chat, should we take it to email?


Regards,
Peter.
http://www.citizensband.radiouk.com/

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 05:22:13 +0100, " Peter"
wrote in :

snip
For me, an important issue is whether a company listen to the
customers. If they are unwilling to listen, before they have your
money, what chances will you have once they have your money?


Excellent point. I bought a Sierra Zip Ztove (zip stove) a while back.
Unpacked it, read the instructions, tried to put it together, but the
top and bottom pieces didn't fit together. So I contacted the company
(ZZ Manufacturing) who told me that the two parts were manufactured in
different years. Then they blew me off.

I guess the method is to keep it cheap. Years ago almost any TV
mail-order gizmo was sold at the "special price of $19.95", always
under $20. Several years later a marketing executive disclosed that
they did research to figure out the highest price they can charge for
a junk product before the buyer returns it for a refund (on a sales
versus refunds curve, I would assume). At that time the magic number
was about $20. No doubt it's higher now, and I'm sure the price of
Brian's processor falls below the current threshold.

On Jul 11, 11:22 pm, " Peter" wrote:
Brian started this thread by advertising his product here. He must
expect some questions and comments. I have nothing against Brian,
but his replies do not fill me with confidence in the company or
product.

You are certainly entitled to your view. VoiceMax is certainly not for
everyone...
www.telstar-electronics.com

On Jul 11, 11:24 pm, " Peter" wrote:
"Telstar Electronics" wrote...
Apart from the question raised over the typical radio settings,
was the idea of the processor not to reduce the dynamic
range of the audio, rather than simply increase the
maximum modulation?

No, VoiceMax greatly compresses the audio.

Was that:

No it was not to reduce the dynamic range
or
Yes, it was to reduce the dynamic range

or, maybe,
"please stop using trick questions"

What I'm saying is that to get the maximum benefit from VoiceMax...
one must have a radio that is capable of 100% modulation...

So the manufacturers all set the modulation wrong, radios
should really be at 100%?

The problem I see is that most of the fitting will be done by
"rig doctors" and DIY CBers. You think you can trust these
people to correctly set the modulation at 100%?
If you asked 100 typical "rig doctors" and DIY CBers to adjust
their modulation to exactly 100%, how many do you really think
would be spot on?

Personally, I would prefer they settle for the 85% or 95%
(whatever the real figure on their radio), rather than risk
them f*cking it up.
But, maybe I am biased... due to all the hours spent putting
right all the damage done by such people.

True. If the radio's limiter is adjusted or disabled... one would have
to restore it to its original setting if the VoiceMax module is
removed. This is normally a very simple procedure as you are most
likely aware of.

Oh yes, especially if I had fitted it.
But, when I get a job in - remove this board - I don't have a clue
what the person who fitted it has done apart from connecting
the wires.
I may know what he should have done, but we are talking of
"rig doctors" here, what we on this side of the pond also
like to call "cowboys".

Yeeeharrrr
Pass me the poker from the fire, I want to solder this board in.
(yes, it has been known)

It sounds like you have no plans to
open your radio... so VoiceMax is not for you.

This is where I start to get some serious concerns...
1. Do you really want to supply the customer, or simply
make up your own ideas and con people into buying them?

Don't understand this...

How did you decide upon your choice of product and, in fact,
your whole marketing mix? Did research tell you that millions
of people are begging for a "quality" processor at a "quality"
price - enough to keep Telstar going with those $60 payments?

Did research tell you that they would prefer the hassle of
fitting it in the radio to "plug & play", even though plug-in
and battery operated accessories have sold for years?

Is the Voicemax what the customer has made clear that they
want, or what you have decided they will have?

I didn't blow-off anyone. I merely told Vinnie that if he didn't have
the expertise necessary to install the unit... and didn't want anyone
else opening his radio... that VoiceMax wasn't for him. What's wrong
with that?

Maybe it came across as rather curt, abrupt, and unwilling to
listen to what the customer wants.
Are you really that snowed under, with no product currently available,
that you cannot consider offering the option of the device as a plug
in accessory?

I don't know, you appear to be a small business. People trust large
well known companies with a long reputation (and TV advertising). They
are attracted to the small business by the way they can be so
flexible and accomodating. No need to ask the manager to ask a director
to bring it up at the next meeting - then pass it back the same way, so
you can come up with a plan and ask the manager to ask... etc.

There are companies that I have dealt with who will take on unusual
jobs just to keep a customer happy. They will even take on jobs as
loss-leaders, just to obtain or keep customers.

Frank has been a constant irritant here for years... yes years.

Frank and I have butted heads a few times, so I do know what he
can be like. However, if he wanted to by a product or service from
me, I would not hesitate to take his money and give him the same
service as any other customer.



He is a frustrated electronic technician in California that doesn't
like
anyone challenging any statement he makes.

Does anyone like being challenged in that way?
How do you feel about the challenges on this group... my comments,
for example? I am only being honest, saying how it appears
to me.
Maybe I have some things wrong about you, but you have the chance
to put them right or sort out any image issues... normal customers
may simply keep quiet and go elsewhere for their items.

You're right... I will be distributing this device at first. After the
product catches on... I hope to work with some distribution channels.

Will they be instructed not to sell any of your products, all one
of them, to Frank?

I'm not here to impress anyone. I also don't want to sell this device
to anyone that has reservations about the performance. Most of these
guys... Frank, Steveo, and some others are not potential customers...

Once you take out the trolls, Frank, Steveo and "some others", that
does not leave many on this group. If you then take out those who
need impressing before they part with hard-earned cash, then we
are starting to run a little short on people here.
Out of those few remaining *possible* postential customers, you
just turned one away.

Maybe this group is not for you, the time could surely be better
spent. Seriously, will any sales you make from this group really
pay for the time you have spent discussing the topic?

they are spoilers. That is... and has been their mission all along.
They are good in a way because they always play the "devils advocate"
and give me an opportunity to explain my device to others out there

You also have to be willing to listen. Several on this group
are simply saying it as they see it. If they are wrong, then
maybe you need to look at image and perception.

Just as people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones,
people stood in quicksand should not throw punches.
Maybe time to cut loose and run, unless this group is your only
source of potential customers.

Now, there's a point... how do you effectively advertise a CB
product to the remaining enthusiasts, is there a CB magazine
in America with a decent circulation?
None now on this side of the pond, the last one got taken over
by some Hammy types, who systematically *******ized it for
their own gratification. Or at least that is how it seems :~)

Now, if you really want to chat, should we take it to email?

Regards,
Peter.
http://www.citizensband.radiouk.com/


Wow... you guys (you & Frank) must have a lot of time on your hands
to write a novel like this. Sorry, I have a business to run. I guess
we'll just have to let people make up their own minds out there. I
have received many inquiries... and several orders in the past few
days. Don't know if they were the result of the posts here... or were
drawn to the web site via search engine. If they saw it here... maybe
they'll report back here after they have installed.
www.telstar-electronics.com

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 04:45:23 -0700, Telspam Electronics
wrote in
om:

snip
Wow... you guys (you & Frank) must have a lot of time on your hands
to write a novel like this.


Yep. With temps in the triple digits there's not much to do. Change
the bulbs in the tower just before the sun comes up, inventory cables,
hang an axe or two.... pretty boring.


Sorry, I have a business to run. I guess
we'll just have to let people make up their own minds out there. I
have received many inquiries... and several orders in the past few
days. Don't know if they were the result of the posts here... or were
drawn to the web site via search engine. If they saw it here... maybe
they'll report back here after they have installed.


Some people might actually believe that if you weren't a such a
pathological liar.

"Frank Gilliland" wrote...

Excellent point. I bought a Sierra Zip Ztove (zip stove) a while back.
Unpacked it, read the instructions, tried to put it together, but the
top and bottom pieces didn't fit together. So I contacted the company
(ZZ Manufacturing) who told me that the two parts were manufactured in
different years. Then they blew me off.

I guess the method is to keep it cheap. Years ago almost any TV
mail-order gizmo was sold at the "special price of $19.95", always
under $20.

We get the same sort of thing here, everything ends in .99
The thing is that, with VAT (our sales tax), that should be added
on for the customer to pay. Are we supposed to believe that, by
some miracle, every time they add VAT to their price it ends in .99?

And all for under $200
Yeah, $199.99.

Do people still fall for that old trick?


Several years later a marketing executive disclosed that
they did research to figure out the highest price they can charge
for a junk product before the buyer returns it for a refund

What, he did a Ratner?

This sounds rather like scammers working out who they can target
who will not report the matter to the police. Maybe even putting
them in a position where they feel that they would be in trouble.


At that time the magic number was about $20. No doubt it's
higher now, and I'm sure the price of
Brian's processor falls below the current threshold.


It may depend upon the purchase method and location.
If you buy from local store, which you pass every day, it's not that
much effort to go in and tell them. But if it's mail order, would it
be higher before they go to the bother?
Also, if they blow the customer off, being local allows the customer
the opportunity to park their ass on the shop doorstep and cost
them more in lost sales.


Regards,
Peter.
http://www.citizensband.radiouk.com/

"Telstar Electronics" wrote...

Wow... you guys (you & Frank)

Us guys? You make it sound like we are some kind of
double act.

That'll be the day... lol.

must have a lot of time on your hands

I don't have that much time, you will see that I often
disappear for days. But you seem to have the time to
reply to both of us, and others.

to write a novel like this.

Just trying to help, giving you feedback and telling it
like it is. Considering how few of the threads I get involved
in, you should feel honoured that I bothered with your thread.


Don't know if they were the result of the posts here... or
were drawn to the web site via search engine.

Or maybe they got the wrong Telstar Electronics...

Telstar Electronics
Dousman, WI 53118

http://www.predicta.com/index.shtml


lol,
Peter.
http://www.citizensband.radiouk.com/