:How many of them are currently making rf amplifiers like the
:example..? How many, if any current rf amplifier manufactures use a
:specific sequence relay in their circuits..?
:
:The answer is close to if not zero... back ye heathen with
:thy dated technology. Chase ye not windmills in this here land.

: More than you think, Skippy. Any good designer of common-cathode
: tetrode/pentode amps will add a sequenced relay specifically to make
: sure the screen is last-on-first-off (when the screen supply is
: seperate from the plate supply).

I believe you were talking about make before break TR relays frankie...
Your post just above is nothing special... nor is it news. Possibly
an attempt to change the subject to power supply squence relays from TR
switching..?


: A relay "Sequencing" notation seems to be missing from the circuit
: diagram. You are again chasing windmills...
:
: And you are having a hard time with your reading comprehension: see
: above where I said, "Schematics don't usually indicate when a relay
: operates in this way". Regardless, sometimes the sequencing is done
: with two relays, and sometimes with one relay using different contact
: gaps. But you will be hard-pressed to find a schematic that makes any
: notation about the latter. Anyone that has ever done any amount of
: radio repairs knows exactly what I am talking about. It's obvious that
: you don't.
:
:Remember mr off topic.... the original amplifier circuit in question has
:one relay.

: I never said it wasn't, Skippy. I guess I have to rephrase this a
: third time so you can understand it: Adding extra gap to a pair of
: contacts in a relay (by slightly bending the amrature) has the same
: effect as using two sequenced relays.

Nice song and dance... but again IT'S NOT USED IN ANY CURRENT AMATEUR
OR COMMERCIAL AMPLIFIER CIRCUIT, nor was it common in past commercial or
amateur amplifiers.

:Other than you gassy cloud sequence story, can you provide any
:modern rf amplifier circuit using a sequence relay...

: I'm willing to bet that the amplifier in question does.

It doesn't...

: or any mention
:of bending relay armature contacts or using said type of relays in
:their respective parts/owners manual.

: You probably won't see such a notation in any owner's or service
: manuals since these relays are typically ordered from the manufacturer
: with the specified gap (or 'contact delay' -- same thing). All you get
: from a service manual is the replacement part number. Replacing one of
: these with a general-purpose relay -without- checking the contact gaps
: on the original can lead to some serious trouble (and I learned THAT
: one from experience).

Brand and model of said lesson device...?

:Why is it not widely mentioned in modern manuals and text books..?

: Sequential relay circuits ARE mentioned in many manuals and text
: books, even in the ARRL manuals. It's up to the designer to choose how
: best to implement the circuit.

Nice try at a side step dance... I was talking about your oh so popular
sequenced relay contacts... on the same frame. Don't try to blend it into
a sequenced relay layout. We were talking a single relay frame, not more
than one relay.


: Your bent armatures suggestion is bad news.
:
: Such "bad news" that the practice has been used by almost every
: manufacturer of transceivers since they were invented? Right. Uh-huh.
: Ok. Next you are probably going to proclaim that relays are "dated
: technology". Sure thing, Skippy. Whatever you say.
:
:The subject was a simple rf amplifier circuit... you just want to dance
:the night away on off topic poop again.

: Why are they "bad news", Skippy? And if they are "bad news", why have
: they been used for decades?

Where... and the bigger question is, why are they not popular now..?
Simple answer: "really dated technology".

Because they are not reliable, nor are they practical, nor are they cheap.

:In regards to transceivers... rather than the stupid practice of hosing
:relay contacts... Motorola, GE, RCA and EF Johnson (along with most
:other mfgrs) simply delayed the RF long enough for the antenna relay
:to transfer.
:
:If you ever had your face in any of their manuals, you'd see delayed
:A+ and A- functions doing the task. Hey, what a concept..! In
:specific, see "channel element ground" functions.

: Those are common practices with diode switching circuits. Sequential
: relays accomplish the same thing, and when a relay is going to be used
: in the circuit it's much easier to gap a pair of contacts than it is
: to construct a power line delay circuit (which usually won't provide
: for the disconnection of the RF final before it powers down, burning
: out the relay contacts before their time).

There is a reason few if any amplifier - radio mfgrs are (might use a)
using sequential relay(s). You'd better jump from this "Titanic Topic"
before you go down with the ship.

I guess all the keyed A+ and A- used by companies like Motorola (for
decades) prefer the harder route. Come on now frankie...

: To verify my statements, all you need to do is to find an old radio
: that uses a T/R relay, take off the cover and look at the gaps. If you
: don't have an example of your own, email me your address and I'll send
: you a whole box full of old T/R relays from a wide variety of radios
: that use gapped contacts. Some of them have bent armatures and some of
: them have armature spacers, but all of them were built with the same
: objective -- a sequential relay.

I believe the original subject was an Amplifier... was it not..? The
last radio with a t/r relay was made ...? .... years ago..? ... decades
ago..?

:Yeah, cranking on relay armatures is pretty bad news... especially
:since many of them are sealed reed relay types. But you knew that
:and obviously holding back to see if I'd mention it... yeah right.!
:
:Hard to crank on a reed relay when its sealed. Yeah baby..!

: Reed relays don't carry RF very well. And they certainly don't carry
: power because it tends to vaporize the Hg and destroy the relay. They
: are usually only used for low-voltage DC and audio switching. But you
: knew that, didn't you Skippy?

I'm laughing at you big time here frankie.. I guess decades of Motorola,
GE, EF Johnson, Aerotron rf amplifier and radio switching with reed relays
doesn't prove anything. I guess its time I went and threw out the large
box of reed T/R relays I have from salvaged high power Motorola Micor
Radio Equipment. I got some nice/neat pictures of their very common
yellow RF switching (reed) relay I could send if you'd like to view them
while eating your crow.

: And the real issue with the relay in that amp is the fact that there
: is only one for both the input and output. If there is one thing that
: Pride got right with their 100 is their use of seperate input and
: output relays.
:
: ZZZZZZZZZZZZzZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....... .....!
:
: Gee, another "I don't care" response.
:
:One wonders why your so hot to tell your stories to me... when you
:should be sharing another of your famous verbose analysis with
:the original author. I promise not to laugh too hard if you do.
:Just leave out the equalization networks...

: I have had several discussions with Brian on many of the issues he
: raised with this amp, including the use of a single relay. He was
: right on the money with everything he said and I don't think he should
: have stopped when he did. He has learned good information from those
: discussions, although I didn't think he ever would at the time. You
: should follow his example, Skippy.

I appreciate your concern frankie, but you have me confused with someone
who really cares about what you post.

Hopefully Brian did not go for your dated relay information. Arcing /
bending relay contacts for use in RF amplifiers is bad news. Wasn't
even great back in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Bad habits die hard... you
prove that quite a bit in your posts.

skipp

In , Skipp would rather be back in Tahoe
wrote:

:How many of them are currently making rf amplifiers like the
:example..? How many, if any current rf amplifier manufactures use a
:specific sequence relay in their circuits..?
:
:The answer is close to if not zero... back ye heathen with
:thy dated technology. Chase ye not windmills in this here land.

: More than you think, Skippy. Any good designer of common-cathode
: tetrode/pentode amps will add a sequenced relay specifically to make
: sure the screen is last-on-first-off (when the screen supply is
: seperate from the plate supply).

I believe you were talking about make before break TR relays frankie...

No I wasn't. I know what I'm talking about, but you obviously don't. Notice I
said "last-on-first-off", not "make before break". And BTW, when talking about
relay and switch contacts, the proper terms are "shorting" and "non-shorting",
not "make before break" and "make after break" -- just a little tidbit of info
that will help you sound like a real tech even though you aren't.

Your post just above is nothing special... nor is it news. Possibly
an attempt to change the subject to power supply squence relays from TR
switching..?

You say that you have lots of experience with tube amps. If so, you should know
exactly what I am talking about. But you don't. You don't have anywhere's near
the experience with tube amps that you claim, or else you would know that when
you apply screen voltage without plate voltage in one of these big power tubes
you start melting grids! And you should also know that if you don't hold the
load on your output tank until -after- the final powers down then you are going
to blow your receiver's front end. Sequential relays are an essential part of
any power transmitter, whether it's tube or solid-state.

: A relay "Sequencing" notation seems to be missing from the circuit
: diagram. You are again chasing windmills...
:
: And you are having a hard time with your reading comprehension: see
: above where I said, "Schematics don't usually indicate when a relay
: operates in this way". Regardless, sometimes the sequencing is done
: with two relays, and sometimes with one relay using different contact
: gaps. But you will be hard-pressed to find a schematic that makes any
: notation about the latter. Anyone that has ever done any amount of
: radio repairs knows exactly what I am talking about. It's obvious that
: you don't.
:
:Remember mr off topic.... the original amplifier circuit in question has
:one relay.

: I never said it wasn't, Skippy. I guess I have to rephrase this a
: third time so you can understand it: Adding extra gap to a pair of
: contacts in a relay (by slightly bending the amrature) has the same
: effect as using two sequenced relays.

Nice song and dance... but again IT'S NOT USED IN ANY CURRENT AMATEUR
OR COMMERCIAL AMPLIFIER CIRCUIT, nor was it common in past commercial or
amateur amplifiers.

Single sequential relays were most certainly common in commercial equipment and
some amateur equipment of the past, and are still used in some current stuff.
Like I said, I have a box full of such relays. I'll send you some if you want,
but you pay postage.

:Other than you gassy cloud sequence story, can you provide any
:modern rf amplifier circuit using a sequence relay...

: I'm willing to bet that the amplifier in question does.

It doesn't...

Did you design it? Do you have one handy and mic'ed the contacts? Or are you
just psychic? But you may be right, since that amp isn't exactly the best
example of RF engineering anyway.

: or any mention
:of bending relay armature contacts or using said type of relays in
:their respective parts/owners manual.

: You probably won't see such a notation in any owner's or service
: manuals since these relays are typically ordered from the manufacturer
: with the specified gap (or 'contact delay' -- same thing). All you get
: from a service manual is the replacement part number. Replacing one of
: these with a general-purpose relay -without- checking the contact gaps
: on the original can lead to some serious trouble (and I learned THAT
: one from experience).

Brand and model of said lesson device...?

Believe it or not, I actually remember the model even though it was almost 25
years ago -- it was a 2-channel Motorola T51GGV. I remember it well because the
first time it came into the shop it needed a new T/R relay, which I replaced
without knowing about the contact gapping requirements. But that darn radio came
back to the shop several times afterwards because it kept blowing the final (a
single 6146). That's when I got the lesson (scolding) about contact gaps from
Stan (the shop owner).

:Why is it not widely mentioned in modern manuals and text books..?

: Sequential relay circuits ARE mentioned in many manuals and text
: books, even in the ARRL manuals. It's up to the designer to choose how
: best to implement the circuit.

Nice try at a side step dance... I was talking about your oh so popular
sequenced relay contacts... on the same frame. Don't try to blend it into
a sequenced relay layout. We were talking a single relay frame, not more
than one relay.

You can accomplish the same thing either way. With two relays (and a diode) it's
an unbelievably simple circuit:

http://www.aimcomm.net/sparky/sq_rly.gif

And in case you never noticed, that's a very common circuit, even in modern
radios with reed relays. But if you are using open-contact type relays it's much
easier and cheaper just to gap a pair of contacts wider than the others on the
same relay. Jeez, Skip, I can't believe that you don't know this stuff -- this
is like high-school level electronics!

: Your bent armatures suggestion is bad news.
:
: Such "bad news" that the practice has been used by almost every
: manufacturer of transceivers since they were invented? Right. Uh-huh.
: Ok. Next you are probably going to proclaim that relays are "dated
: technology". Sure thing, Skippy. Whatever you say.
:
:The subject was a simple rf amplifier circuit... you just want to dance
:the night away on off topic poop again.

: Why are they "bad news", Skippy? And if they are "bad news", why have
: they been used for decades?

Where... and the bigger question is, why are they not popular now..?
Simple answer: "really dated technology".

That didn't answer the question -- why are they "bad news"? Because they aren't
"popular"? Maybe you should take a closer look at some of these un-"popular"
amps from makers like Collins, Henry, Kenwood.... or hey, you could even check
your copy of the ARRL handbook! I have the 1978 edition and it shows a couple
examples of sequenced relays.

Oh, and speaking of the ARRL handbook, notice that in every single example of HV
power supplies where there are semiconductor rectifiers in series they use
resistors and caps. On p.113 (1978 ed.) it has an entire section about using
diodes in series, under the section on "Protection of Silicon Power Diodes".
That section basically states that because diodes do not turn off at the same
time (no matter how well matched they are), they are subject to transients that
exceed the PRV of the diode. So the ARRL recommends using resistors to divide
the reverse voltage equally, and capacitors to protect against unequal switching
times. So do you think that the ARRL handbook is wrong?

Because they are not reliable, nor are they practical, nor are they cheap.

One relay is more reliable AND less expensive than two relays and a diode,
don'cha think? And one relay uses less current, takes up less space, and is
easier to replace when it fails, so how are they not practical? And if they were
used by GE, Motorola, Uniden, and many major manufacturers for many, many years
(and are STILL used by other companies despite your unqualified claims to the
contrary), why are they "bad news", Skippy? They aren't. So shut your trap and
learn something instead of bragging about your ignorance.

:In regards to transceivers... rather than the stupid practice of hosing
:relay contacts... Motorola, GE, RCA and EF Johnson (along with most
:other mfgrs) simply delayed the RF long enough for the antenna relay
:to transfer.
:
:If you ever had your face in any of their manuals, you'd see delayed
:A+ and A- functions doing the task. Hey, what a concept..! In
:specific, see "channel element ground" functions.

: Those are common practices with diode switching circuits. Sequential
: relays accomplish the same thing, and when a relay is going to be used
: in the circuit it's much easier to gap a pair of contacts than it is
: to construct a power line delay circuit (which usually won't provide
: for the disconnection of the RF final before it powers down, burning
: out the relay contacts before their time).

There is a reason few if any amplifier - radio mfgrs are (might use a)
using sequential relay(s). You'd better jump from this "Titanic Topic"
before you go down with the ship.

No, YOU better start paying attention to how these things are actually designed
and built! The reason (and I said this before) is because they are being
replaced by reed relays in sequential circuits. But not every manufacturer uses
reed relays. Some still use open-contact relays, such as the amp that YOU used
for an example.

I guess all the keyed A+ and A- used by companies like Motorola (for
decades) prefer the harder route. Come on now frankie...

No. After the old tube monsters went extinct, Motorola took a different path and
built some radios that put the relay sequencing into the mic switch, which
wasn't too popular because the mics weren't interchangeable between radios. But
many shops tried anyway, resulting in a lot of bad radios, which is one reason
why their radios sucked for a long time. The Mocom line used a single sequenced
relay, which was made just before they began using sequenced reed relays (using
circuits similar to what I provided in the schematic).

But you should know all this already because you are a radio tech, right?

: To verify my statements, all you need to do is to find an old radio
: that uses a T/R relay, take off the cover and look at the gaps. If you
: don't have an example of your own, email me your address and I'll send
: you a whole box full of old T/R relays from a wide variety of radios
: that use gapped contacts. Some of them have bent armatures and some of
: them have armature spacers, but all of them were built with the same
: objective -- a sequential relay.

I believe the original subject was an Amplifier... was it not..? The
last radio with a t/r relay was made ...? .... years ago..? ... decades
ago..?

T/R relays are still used today -- did you forget about that amplifier we were
talking about?

:Yeah, cranking on relay armatures is pretty bad news... especially
:since many of them are sealed reed relay types. But you knew that
:and obviously holding back to see if I'd mention it... yeah right.!
:
:Hard to crank on a reed relay when its sealed. Yeah baby..!

: Reed relays don't carry RF very well. And they certainly don't carry
: power because it tends to vaporize the Hg and destroy the relay. They
: are usually only used for low-voltage DC and audio switching. But you
: knew that, didn't you Skippy?

I'm laughing at you big time here frankie.. I guess decades of Motorola,
GE, EF Johnson, Aerotron rf amplifier and radio switching with reed relays
doesn't prove anything.

By "power" I meant kilowatts, but I'll let you gloat for a while anyway because
I should have stated myself more clearly.

I guess its time I went and threw out the large
box of reed T/R relays I have from salvaged high power Motorola Micor
Radio Equipment.

Oh, hey, remember your question above? "The last radio with a t/r relay was made
....? .... years ago..? ... decades ago..?" I think you answered your own
question, Skippy.

I got some nice/neat pictures of their very common
yellow RF switching (reed) relay I could send if you'd like to view them
while eating your crow.

It's more fun to see how differently you react when you know for a fact that you
are right, as opposed to 99% of the time when you are shoveling technical voodoo
based on your misunderstanding of the fundamentals and your lack of education
and experience, or plagiarizing some ham that shares your ignorance. It's almost
like you jump out of your seat and lapse into convulsions when you can finally
nail me on something! I should put out some intentional misinformation just to
jerk your chain once in a while!

: And the real issue with the relay in that amp is the fact that there
: is only one for both the input and output. If there is one thing that
: Pride got right with their 100 is their use of seperate input and
: output relays.
:
: ZZZZZZZZZZZZzZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....... .....!
:
: Gee, another "I don't care" response.
:
:One wonders why your so hot to tell your stories to me... when you
:should be sharing another of your famous verbose analysis with
:the original author. I promise not to laugh too hard if you do.
:Just leave out the equalization networks...

: I have had several discussions with Brian on many of the issues he
: raised with this amp, including the use of a single relay. He was
: right on the money with everything he said and I don't think he should
: have stopped when he did. He has learned good information from those
: discussions, although I didn't think he ever would at the time. You
: should follow his example, Skippy.

I appreciate your concern frankie, but you have me confused with someone
who really cares about what you post.

....uh huh. That's why we are having this conversation, right?

Hopefully Brian did not go for your dated relay information. Arcing /
bending relay contacts for use in RF amplifiers is bad news.

Even though it's a method that has been used successfully for almost a century,
and still used even today, why is it "bad news", Skippy? Why can't you answer
that simple little question?

Wasn't
even great back in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Bad habits die hard... you
prove that quite a bit in your posts.

I guess fire, gears, metallurgy, and the wheel are some of those 'bad habits'
that use "dated technology", huh? Of course let's not forget that the internal
combustion engine and the airplane have been around for a century, so they must
also be "dated technology", right? But wait.... radio is over a century old,
too... by golly, even RADIO is "dated technology"! So why the hell are you using
it, Skippy?





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"Skipp remembers when continues" wrote in
message ...


Troll Post

In , Skipp remembers when continues
wrote:

: Frank Gilliland wrote:
: No I wasn't. I know what I'm talking about, but you obviously don't. Notice I
: said "last-on-first-off", not "make before break". And BTW, when talking about
: relay and switch contacts, the proper terms are "shorting" and "non-shorting",
: not "make before break" and "make after break" -- just a little tidbit of info
: that will help you sound like a real tech even though you aren't.

What started your rant was my mention of hot switching of the amplifier
which was part of the original thread. You said it might have a
sequenced, arc'd or what term you'd like to use... relay. I said it does
not. In short, as shown the original (pride brand I belive) amplifier
probably hot switches RF unless you can prove otherwise.

Wrong. It does neither until someone proves otherwise. I really don't care if
the amp uses a sequenced relay or not, since it is designed for illegal use in
the US market anyway.

None of the Pride
amplifiers I have here use any type of special or sequenced relay for RF
switching.

Pride amps suck. Period. They are probably the worst designed piece-of-**** amps
ever pushed onto the ultra-gullible illegal CBer market. But most of them had
one advantage that few CB amplifiers ever had (or ever will have): they used
seperate relays for input and output. And yes, they ARE sequenced! Even the
diminutive Pride 100 had seperate, sequenced relays. And the use of seperate
relays was enough to give them a reputation for stability (never breaking into
oscillation), regardless of the fact that they would splatter up and down the
spectrum like a spark-gap transmitter.

:Your post just above is nothing special... nor is it news. Possibly
:an attempt to change the subject to power supply squence relays from TR
:switching..?

: You say that you have lots of experience with tube amps. If so, you should know
: exactly what I am talking about. But you don't. You don't have anywhere' s near
: the experience with tube amps that you claim, or else you would know that when
: you apply screen voltage without plate voltage in one of these big power tubes
: you start melting grids! And you should also know that if you don't hold the
: load on your output tank until -after- the final powers down then you are going
: to blow your receiver's front end. Sequential relays are an essential part of
: any power transmitter, whether it's tube or solid-state.

I only claim to prefer half and half in my coffee, not much more frankie.

If I or others don't give you tube amp 101 complete, you start claiming we
don't know something because it wasn't previously mentioned. Now where did
I or anyone claim anything specific about screen anode voltage
sequencing..? I mentioned an common homebrew (amateur) practice about
deriving screens from the HV supply, no magic there.

Lame excuse, Skippy. You should pick up a copy of the ARRL handbook. I'm sure
Scott can give you the card catalog number if you can't afford a copy at the
local used book store.

If you stay with one example amplifier circuit, then it's much easier to
get into specifics... I'm not even sure where you'r "pulling your load on
the output tank until after it powers down" statement from. What do you
consider "powers down" frankie..? Sequential RF relays are not an
essential part of any tube or solid state power transmitter... your going
to up the power level of the topic amplifier to some broadcast
transmitter now..?

Wrong. You ALWAYS apply plate voltage before screen voltage. It's a given. Just
like using ground for the other end of any B+ supply. Or star-grounding each RF
stage of an amplifier or receiver. When you read a schematic, some things don't
need to be mentioned, and sequential keying is one of them. That's just ONE of
the fundamentals you missed in your internet-based education.

If you'd stay on topic (like the original small rf amplifier for
example), fine. If you want to jump from amps to transmitters at various
power levels... clearly say so. I have transmitters delivering power
which have no relays at all. Everything is electronic switching... just
depends on the power level of which you reference. But goodness you like
to dance around.

Quit whining and stay on topic -- why are sequential relays "bad news"?

If you jump to larger broadcast transmitters... they are often loaded with
relays and permissive controls, but for the most part, there are no
special sequenced TR relays switching RF in the output power section. Per
the original thread that you took off dancing your tune... there is no
hot switching of rf in a typical broadcast transmitter.

DUH!!! There is no switching AT ALL in a broadcast transmitter because it's not
a transceiver! How dumb do you think CBers are? Oh, that's right, you equated
their mentality to Forrest Gump: "Life is box of chocolatte."

:Nice song and dance... but again IT'S NOT USED IN ANY CURRENT AMATEUR
:OR COMMERCIAL AMPLIFIER CIRCUIT, nor was it common in past commercial or
:amateur amplifiers.

: Single sequential relays were most certainly common in commercial
: equipment and some amateur equipment of the past, and are still used in
: some current stuff.
: Like I said, I have a box full of such relays. I'll send you some if
: you want, but you pay postage.

As stated before, I'd settle on the name of any current Amateur or
Commercial Amplifier which uses Sequential relays to switch RF...? I'd
even offer up that you could also provide the name of any broadcast or
amateur transmitter which uses your special sequential relays to switch
RF..?

I'm not a ham, but you are, and you claim to have a ****load of amps. Why don't
you mic a few contacts and post the results? But remember that I have a few
myself, and so do many people on this newsgroup -- IOW, don't post bogus data!

That was the original topic of your follow up post to my comments on
the mentioned amplifier... Sequential relays for RF t/r switching.

It's been around a lot longer than you have, and even exists in your example of
the Micor from Motorola. You want gapped contacts? I offered you a box full of
them, but for some reason you have refused.

::Other than you gassy cloud sequence story, can you provide any
::modern rf amplifier circuit using a sequence relay...
:
:: I'm willing to bet that the amplifier in question does.
:
:It doesn't...

: Did you design it? Do you have one handy and mic'ed the contacts? Or are you
: just psychic? But you may be right, since that amp isn't exactly the best
: example of RF engineering anyway.

I've had about one of most every type amplifier made through the last few
decades...

Yeah, right. You are -SO- full of **** it's not even funny.

and yes, I've had and still have a few Pride amplifiers
in my collection. For the most part, they use generic relays. Some of
their amplifier circuits are pretty nice, most of their mobile amplifiers
are crap. Every amplifier they've produced had/has shortfalls in the
designs... but so has most every brand of amplifier made. If you want to
use one, you buy it and improve it as best possible and practical.

What's your point? That you can't afford anything but Pride amps? Hey, I'll
believe THAT! What I WON'T believe is that you designed and/or built any big
amps (tube or ss) that worked! I think you have a few cheap amps that you value
ONLY because you can't afford anything else!

:: You probably won't see such a notation in any owner's or service
:: manuals since these relays are typically ordered from the manufacturer
:: with the specified gap (or 'contact delay' -- same thing). All you get
:: from a service manual is the replacement part number. Replacing one of
:: these with a general-purpose relay -without- checking the contact gaps
:: on the original can lead to some serious trouble (and I learned THAT
:: one from experience).
:
:Brand and model of said lesson device...?

: Believe it or not, I actually remember the model even though it was almost 25
: years ago -- it was a 2-channel Motorola T51GGV. I remember it well because the
: first time it came into the shop it needed a new T/R relay, which I replaced
: without knowing about the contact gapping requirements. But that darn radio came
: back to the shop several times afterwards because it kept blowing the final (a
: single 6146). That's when I got the lesson (scolding) about contact gaps from
: Stan (the shop owner).

Your talking an old Motrac era tube radio, originally designed from the
60's. You are not talking about any amateur or commercial amplifier
produced on a large scale. ... or for the most part, even a relative small
scale production for the consumer.

Your lack of experience is showing yet again. Those old radios used the circuits
most hacked by amateurs for both homebrew AND manufactured amps. Are you so
stupid to think that the big companies used circuits designed by amateurs? No,
not even close, Skippy, they used circuits designed by PROFESSIONALS, and the
amateurs copied them!

The replacement for your mentioned 60's designed radio is/was a radio with
delay A+ and A- controls and a reed relay switching 100 watts plus of RF.
Commonly called a Micor... or the Mocom 70 depend on your pocket book and
how deep you let Motorola into it.

All Motorola radios used sequential switching. Check your Micor manual and look
for the "P-T-T sequencing diagram" in the "Control Board" section. There you
will find a diagram similar to the schematic I posted. And whether the
sequencing is done with reed relays (a la Micor), seperate relays (a la Pride),
or gapped relay contacts (a la Motorola, GE, Henry, Uniden, Kenwood, Henry,
Collins...etc, etc), it all amounts to the same effect. The PROBLEM is that you
can't accept that there is, and has been for some time, another method of
sequential switching other than what you have learned from the internet! Get
over your ego trip, learn from your mistakes, and move on!

Stay in the 60's if you like... amplifier mfgrs have long since moved on
to more practical circuit which left sequential rf tr relays by the
wayside.

:Nice try at a side step dance... I was talking about your oh so popular
:sequenced relay contacts... on the same frame. Don't try to blend it into
:a sequenced relay layout. We were talking a single relay frame, not more
:than one relay.

: You can accomplish the same thing either way. With two relays (and a diode) it's
: an unbelievably simple circuit:

: http://www.aimcomm.net/sparky/sq_rly.gif
: And in case you never noticed, that's a very common circuit, even in modern
: radios with reed relays. But if you are using open-contact type relays it's much
: easier and cheaper just to gap a pair of contacts wider than the others on the
: same relay. Jeez, Skip, I can't believe that you don't know this stuff -- this
: is like high-school level electronics!

Jeez frankie, in case you hadn't noticed... much of current amateur
amplifier technology uses fast relays and electronic bias which don't
require sequenced t/r relays. A typical reed or vacuum relay is faster
than the typical driving radio/exciter. I can't believe you don't know
this stuff... :-)

So why do the same radios use delay lines for their sequential switching? And
before you whine about going off-topic, don't forget that YOU were the one who
first mentioned delay lines!

[snipage of frankies previous dance and sing, topic avoidance...)

What did you snip? I checked the previous post and it looks like you didn't snip
anything....?

: That didn't answer the question -- why are they "bad news"? Because they aren't
: "popular"? Maybe you should take a closer look at some of these un-"popular"
: amps from makers like Collins, Henry, Kenwood.... or hey, you could even check
: your copy of the ARRL handbook! I have the 1978 edition and it shows a couple
: examples of sequenced relays.

Notice the Decade... 1978 We've come a long way from 1978. Let me
repeat the question; are there any current Amplifier mfgrs using
Sequential Relays to switch RF..?

Almost all of them, including your referenced Micor. But that didn't answer the
question -- why are they "bad news"?

As a sidebar notation: The collins 30-L1, 30-S1, Henry Series and the ill
fated Kenwood TL-series of hf amplifiers did not use sequential relays for
RF switching. Many or most of the above hot switch rf, which is not good
news. That's where this all started...

Aside from the fact that triodes don't have screen grids, keep going.....

: Oh, and speaking of the ARRL handbook, notice that in every single example of HV
: power supplies where there are semiconductor rectifiers in series they use
: resistors and caps. On p.113 (1978 ed.) it has an entire section about using
: diodes in series, under the section on "Protection of Silicon Power Diodes".
: That section basically states that because diodes do not turn off at the same
: time (no matter how well matched they are), they are subject to transients that
: exceed the PRV of the diode. So the ARRL recommends using resistors to divide
: the reverse voltage equally, and capacitors to protect against unequal switching
: times. So do you think that the ARRL handbook is wrong?

No, I think that material writen in 1978 was probably pretty good in
1978, not always the best in 2003... some 25 years later. Things
change... big time.

How? Does the current ARRL handbook say something different? Does it assume that
we are all using 1n4007's that were made within the past couple years (you know,
the years when they are manufactured to such tight tolerances that they all
switch off at EXACTLY the same time?)? Or does it realize the possibility that
some of us don't have a retail account with Perfection Rectifier, INC?

:Because they are not reliable, nor are they practical, nor are they cheap.

: One relay is more reliable AND less expensive than two relays and a diode,
: don'cha think? And one relay uses less current, takes up less space, and is
: easier to replace when it fails, so how are they not practical? And if they were
: used by GE, Motorola, Uniden, and many major manufacturers for many, many years
: (and are STILL used by other companies despite your unqualified claims to the
: contrary), why are they "bad news", Skippy? They aren't. So shut your trap and
: learn something instead of bragging about your ignorance.

My original statement was about hot switching rf through the example
amplifier, your attempts to divert to some other dual relay example are
bogus.

There is no diversion, Skippy. Hot switching RF is easily avoided by sequential
switching; i.e, sequential relays.

Special sequential RF or your magic modified arc'd open frame type relays
are old technology and not used in modern equipment. By nature, they are
expensive and unreliable when compared to electronic switching (pin
diode) reed or vacuum relays used in most current Amateur Amplifiers.
Simple enough...

But the amplifier in question didn't use PIN diodes, or indicate the use of reed
or vacuum relays. Now what's your problem, Skippy?

I'm sure we'll be waiting some time for your example of special
model sequential tr (for switching rf) relays used in any modern radio
equipment. Those mechnical relays your standing behind are long gone from
the big picture.
The clock ticks louder and louder...

You seem to have an answer for everything else (except why sequential relays are
"bad news"), so why do some manufacturers still use open-contact relays?

"Your trap" seems to be shut on any current example..? what's up with
that frankie..?

Why are sequential relays "bad news", Skippy?

Onward...
The number of relays required to complete the TR function is another
whole topic.

Don't pull that off-topic crap -- why are sequential relays "bad news"? Address
the issue, Skippy!

I do not care to bring in your latest off topic
number of relay diversion as it was never part of the original thread.
Stay on track frankie.

Gladly. Why are sequential relays "bad news"?

:There is a reason few if any amplifier - radio mfgrs are (might use a)
:using sequential relay(s). You'd better jump from this "Titanic Topic"
:before you go down with the ship.

: No, YOU better start paying attention to how these things are actually designed
: and built! The reason (and I said this before) is because they are being
: replaced by reed relays in sequential circuits. But not every manufacturer uses
: reed relays. Some still use open-contact relays, such as the amp that YOU used
: for an example.

The original amplifier circuit which started all this, is still hot
switching RF.

Possible, yet unproven. Regardless, why are sequential relays "bad news"?

Your original followup to my mention of said suggested the
amplifier might have had a sequential relay (or similar function) TR
switching RF. I claim is does not and I stand by it until you prove
otherwise.

Then it shall remain unproven. Still, why are sequential relays "bad news"?

By the way Mr Technology... since you're paying attention of course..

A typical "properly designed" amateur amplifier with reed relay switching
probably doesn't have to have a sequential relay circuit, the reed relay
is often faster than any typical Amateur Radio driving said amplifier.

The primary purpose of sequential relays is to provide the proper sequence
between RX RF, audio input, final drive, final load and final power input (and
screen bias for pentode/tetrode finals). Screw up the sequence and you can screw
up the tranceiver. Now, why are sequential relays "bad news", Skippy?

:I guess all the keyed A+ and A- used by companies like Motorola (for
:decades) prefer the harder route. Come on now frankie...

: No. After the old tube monsters went extinct, Motorola took a different path and
: built some radios that put the relay sequencing into the mic switch, which
: wasn't too popular because the mics weren't interchangeable between radios. But
: many shops tried anyway, resulting in a lot of bad radios, which is one reason
: why their radios sucked for a long time. The Mocom line used a single sequenced
: relay, which was made just before they began using sequenced reed relays (using
: circuits similar to what I provided in the schematic).

Motorola produced high powered tube amplifiers through the 80's and into
the 90's.

So?

These magic radios you claim Motorola produced with sequential TR - RF
switching... how about a model name...? In the commercial world, they
were not long term reliable, they were expensive and they fell by the
wayside when the technology moved on... some 25 or more years ago..?

All of them, or haven't you been paying attention?

: But you should know all this already because you are a radio tech, right?

Yeah, just by luck I worked for a Motorola Service Station for "a few
years", it also happens to be one of the largest in the Nation... still.

Then why haven't you learned anything about sequential relays? What did you do
there -- mop the floors in the heads?

So after you abandon your Sequential relay statements and try to merge
your current foot in mouth position into some type of sequential reed
relay circuit... how about you get back on track. As in current
amplifier or radio technology... some 20 to 25 year later.

You keep whining about "dated" technology, yet you don't even know what was used
in the past OR the present.

:I believe the original subject was an Amplifier... was it not..? The
:last radio with a t/r relay was made ...? .... years ago..? ... decades
:ago..?

: T/R relays are still used today -- did you forget about that amplifier we were
: talking about?

Was a pride right..? if it was made as shown in the original diagram, it
still hot switches RF as I first mentioned. You claim it doesn't and you
are wrong. Nothing has changed...

Wrong. Most of Pride's amps used seperate relays in a mode where one relay
controlled the other -- sequenced relays.

:: Reed relays don't carry RF very well. And they certainly don't carry
:: power because it tends to vaporize the Hg and destroy the relay. They
:: are usually only used for low-voltage DC and audio switching. But you
:: knew that, didn't you Skippy?
:
:I'm laughing at you big time here frankie.. I guess decades of Motorola,
:GE, EF Johnson, Aerotron rf amplifier and radio switching with reed relays
:doesn't prove anything.

: By "power" I meant kilowatts, but I'll let you gloat for a while anyway because
: I should have stated myself more clearly.

The original amplifier was not at the kilowatt level.... but just for the
sake of others reading this. The typical multi kilowatt level amateur
amplifier uses reed relay switching on the input and vacuum relay
switching on the output. In some cases, vacuum relays are used on both the
input and the output. They handle the RF well and they are very fast...
fast enough that the driving radio is most often not subject to rf hot
switching.

Nobody said they weren't fast. I said they are lossy; and they are when compared
to a good open-contact relay designed for power RF. Reed relays are cheaper and
smaller. If given a choice, I'll spend a couple extra bucks for a -good- relay.

: I guess its time I went and threw out the large
:box of reed T/R relays I have from salvaged high power Motorola Micor
:Radio Equipment.

: Oh, hey, remember your question above? "The last radio with a t/r relay was made
: ...? .... years ago..? ... decades ago..?" I think you answered your own
: question, Skippy.

Actually...
I was hoping you'd comment on your statement that "reed relays don't carry
RF well..." but you avoided it big time.

They don't. They are used because they are cheap and small.

: I got some nice/neat pictures of their very common
:yellow RF switching (reed) relay I could send if you'd like to view them
:while eating your crow.

: It's more fun to see how differently you react when you know for a fact
: that you are right, as opposed to 99% of the time when you are
: shoveling technical voodoo based on your misunderstanding of the
: fundamentals and your lack of education
: and experience, or plagiarizing some ham that shares your ignorance. It's almost
: like you jump out of your seat and lapse into convulsions when you can finally
: nail me on something! I should put out some intentional misinformation just to
: jerk your chain once in a while!

I feel humbled knowing your opinion frankie...

You should.

but you are still wrong
about the hot switching comments you made.

Why are sequential relays "bad news"?

If you weren't so bitter and mean, people might like you better... even
with your ego as bad as it is.

Quit trying to drag this off-topic and answer the question: Why are sequential
relays "bad news"?

:I appreciate your concern frankie, but you have me confused with someone
:who really cares about what you post.

: ...uh huh. That's why we are having this conversation, right?

Mostly to get the proper facts out...

You have had ample opportunity to disclose as many facts as you want, but all
you seem willing to provide is your opinion backed up with no more than two
websites, both of which were quickly dismissed -- one because it contradicts
your own opinions, and the other because of both theoretical and mathematical
inaccuracies. Where are your "facts", Skippy?

people make mistakes, both you and
I. I call you on some of yours, you call me on some of mine. If you
weren't so bitter about it, it might be a lot more fun. You wouldn't get
that knot in your stomach and have your blood pressure jump up when you
see that I've posted a follow up.

The difference, Skippy, is that when I make a mistake I admit it. When you make
a mistake it's because you have no clue what you are talking about and are
trying to sound like you are something you aren't -- technically competent.
Unfortunately, your mistakes occur with just about everything you say, and since
you can't admit them, you compound your ineptitude by piling on more of your BS
theories. I'm not saying that you are incapable of understanding any of this
stuff, but that you are too lazy to learn it the right way. Forget the internet
and read some books written and published with some authority. Go visit your
local public library if you can't afford the books. But for crying out loud,
quit professing your ignorance by trying to top someone with five years of
college and over 25 years experience in the field! Hey, I don't know everything,
but I sure as hell know more than you ever will, and I certainly know how to
fill in any gaps in my knowledge base. You don't even HAVE a knowledge base. Get
one. Then we'll argue. Until then, you will be treated just like any other
blowhard keyclown tech-wannabe.

:Hopefully Brian did not go for your dated relay information. Arcing /
:bending relay contacts for use in RF amplifiers is bad news.

: Even though it's a method that has been used successfully for almost a century,
: and still used even today, why is it "bad news", Skippy? Why can't you answer
: that simple little question?

Simple enough...
Compared to the alternatives like pin diode, reed and vacuum relay, it's
very unreliable.

Wrong. The reliability of the electro-mechanical relay is a tough act to beat.
While the vacuum relay reduces arcing of the contacts, that only extends the
life of the contacts. The reed relay is based on the same principle, but it's
advantages are only it's small size and low cost. The PIN diode has severe power
limitations, and is highly vulnerable to transient peaks and surges. And when
you consider that an open-contact relay is easily maintained just by cleaning
the contacts, and replaced with the simplicity of a vacuuum tube, there are FEW
devices that can be considered to be as reliable.

It's also more expensive than some of the circuits which
replaced it.

You get what you pay for.

Now your turn frankie.... who's bending relay contacts these days and
where can we find it done..?

Beats me. But if you want to know who is using sequential relays, pick just
about anybody in the list. How they implement them is strictly a matter for
their engineers. For the amateur building an amp using open-contact relays, I
would recommend gapping the contacts on one relay as one method of sequencing
the switching, and I know that some do it that way. For manufacturing, I don't
know why anyone would use an open-contact relay except for RF power switching.
Frankly, I'm suprised how many use reed relays and not open-contact relays for
RF power switching. But that's their problem because I don't use those radios or
recommend them to any of my customers. If you saw the specs for yourself, you
wouldn't either.

: Wasn't
:even great back in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Bad habits die hard... you
:prove that quite a bit in your posts.

: I guess fire, gears, metallurgy, and the wheel are some of those 'bad habits'
: that use "dated technology", huh? Of course let's not forget that the internal
: combustion engine and the airplane have been around for a century, so they must
: also be "dated technology", right? But wait.... radio is over a century old,
: too... by golly, even RADIO is "dated technology"! So why the hell are you using
: it, Skippy?

Simple, its fun and pays good money.

Frankie... plasma is now common,

It always has been -- it's called 'fire'.

gears are now complex,

Do you own a bicycle?

metallurgy now
produces exotic blends and alloys

60/40 solder = 60% lead and 40% tin (or is it the other way around?)

and the wheel spins over hundreds of
thousands of rpm in turbine units.

Not on -my- truck!

Let's not forget you daddy's Oldsmobile
looks nothing like a common auto and cloth covered airplanes are not
common place in commercial aircraft mfgr.

Check the magazine rack at your local library or grocery store.

Time for you to simply enjoy your crow sandwich and move on... it's 2003

So? People still use low-tech devices like wheel-barrows, matches, .... heck,
even alcohol has been around for thousands of years and still works just the
same! Do you barbecue with charcoal or propane (yuk!)? Is the fabric in the
clothing you wear not made on a loom? And I think that even down there in
granola-land that boats float based on the principle of Archimedes law of
displacement. Just because technology is "dated" doesn't mean it's "bad news".

It's been fun for the most part.

"73's and good luck in the contest"
skipp

Read a book.





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In , Not really
wrote:

: Cool Breeze spade#abc.com wrote:
: "Skipp remembers when continues" wrote in
: message ...
: Troll Post

Not really... but my blade glows blue, must be orcs nearby. :-)
s.

Now THAT explains a LOT! Get your mind out of that fantasy-land and start
dealing with a reality where you don't make **** up as you go.





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: Frank Gilliland wrote:

:What started your rant was my mention of hot switching of the amplifier
:which was part of the original thread. You said it might have a
:sequenced, arc'd or what term you'd like to use... relay. I said it does
:not. In short, as shown the original (pride brand I belive) amplifier
:probably hot switches RF unless you can prove otherwise.

: Wrong. It does neither until someone proves otherwise. I really don't care if
: the amp uses a sequenced relay or not, since it is designed for illegal use in
: the US market anyway.

Funny you felt compelled to comment on my mention of hot switching
issues with the amplifier in the original thread.

: Pride amps suck. Period. They are probably the worst designed piece-of-**** amps
: ever pushed onto the ultra-gullible illegal CBer market. But most of them had
: one advantage that few CB amplifiers ever had (or ever will have): they used
: seperate relays for input and output. And yes, they ARE sequenced! Even the
: diminutive Pride 100 had seperate, sequenced relays. And the use of seperate
: relays was enough to give them a reputation for stability (never breaking into
: oscillation), regardless of the fact that they would splatter up and down the
: spectrum like a spark-gap transmitter.

Actually
I have one or two Pride amps that are actually pretty nice. The mobiles
are crap for various reasons, but they are not exclusive in the poop
department. The early Palomar tx-50, tx-75 and tx-100 mobiles were just as
bad. I believe a spark-gap transmitter would do much worse.

: Lame excuse, Skippy. You should pick up a copy of the ARRL handbook. I'm sure
: Scott can give you the card catalog number if you can't afford a copy at the
: local used book store.

I have most every Handbook frankie... The newer ones tend to be quite
different as the technology moves along. One of your last posts, includes
information from a 1978 edition... got one newer... say the last decade at
least..?

:If you stay with one example amplifier circuit, then it's much easier to
:get into specifics... I'm not even sure where you'r "pulling your load on
:the output tank until after it powers down" statement from. What do you
:consider "powers down" frankie..? Sequential RF relays are not an
:essential part of any tube or solid state power transmitter... your going
:to up the power level of the topic amplifier to some broadcast
:transmitter now..?

: Wrong. You ALWAYS apply plate voltage before screen voltage. It's a given. Just
: like using ground for the other end of any B+ supply. Or star-grounding each RF
: stage of an amplifier or receiver. When you read a schematic, some things don't
: need to be mentioned, and sequential keying is one of them. That's just ONE of
: the fundamentals you missed in your internet-based education.

I, nor anyone else ever claimed a tubes screen voltage should be applied
before the anode voltage. Why did you bother to mention it..?

I'm not sure where you're going with your "using ground for the other end
of any B+ Supply" statement.... I hate to rain on your parade, but there
are plenty of Amplifiers which do not use ground as the "other end" of the
B+ Supply. Some of the are amplifier brands you mentioned in one of your
most recient posts. Maybe you should better explain your statement..?

Sequential keying is not an issue in most of my amplifiers frankie, the
relays I use are much faster than the driving radio. That's current
technology frankie... how about you catching up. :-) You can read about
it at Rich's web page in the SB-220 QSK section. You might add a bit of
internet-based education to your current lineup of dated data.

: Quit whining and stay on topic -- why are sequential relays "bad news"?

Ahh... your moving around again... but what the heck. If the relays are
mechanical open frame type, they are slow and cause hot switching in the
typical amateur station.

You can avoid hot switching by switching to other options... like fast
reed relays (which you claimed don't handle RF), or vacuum relays which
switch much faster that most common amateur radios.

If you want to drag the thread back over to your beloved broadcast
transmitter, most all do not have T/R relays of any type switching the
rf pipe.
The original thread started over someone asking about a relative low power
level solid state HF mobile amplifier... a Pride was it not..? When you
jump back and forth from small solid state amps to large tube amps,
consider taking a moment to at least layout the example for the readers.

:If you jump to larger broadcast transmitters... they are often loaded with
:relays and permissive controls, but for the most part, there are no
:special sequenced TR relays switching RF in the output power section. Per
:the original thread that you took off dancing your tune... there is no
:hot switching of rf in a typical broadcast transmitter.

: DUH!!! There is no switching AT ALL in a broadcast transmitter because it's not
: a transceiver! How dumb do you think CBers are? Oh, that's right, you equated
: their mentality to Forrest Gump: "Life is box of chocolatte."

Looks like you're running out of of plank frankie... over the side you
will soon be. To the sharks with ye'

:As stated before, I'd settle on the name of any current Amateur or
:Commercial Amplifier which uses Sequential relays to switch RF...? I'd
:even offer up that you could also provide the name of any broadcast or
:amateur transmitter which uses your special sequential relays to switch
:RF..?

: I'm not a ham, but you are, and you claim to have a ****load of amps. Why don't
: you mic a few contacts and post the results? But remember that I have a few
: myself, and so do many people on this newsgroup -- IOW, don't post
: bogus data!

Actually, I'm only a pastrami sandwich... but being a ham has little to do
with the facts, other than it might expose your lack of real world hands
on experience about the amplifier hot switching topic; which is the
statement I made that you felt compelled attack in that original thread.

I don't know if I've bothered to mic a relay contact in some decades. On
the relative scale, most relays are cheap to replace when compared to
reliability issues. Most of my amplifier relays are reed or vacuum type
frankie... I'd have to damage them to get them open. :-) Some of my legal
limit level amateur amplifiers even have diode tr switching. Never has the
diode switching circuit failed... and they are fast as heck.

:That was the original topic of your follow up post to my comments on
:the mentioned amplifier... Sequential relays for RF t/r switching.

: It's been around a lot longer than you have, and even exists in your example of
: the Micor from Motorola. You want gapped contacts? I offered you a box full of
: them, but for some reason you have refused.

Thanks for the offer, but...
I have boxes of similar relays that I will probably never use. It's not
worth the postage to get them shipped down.

: and yes, I've had and still have a few Pride amplifiers
:in my collection. For the most part, they use generic relays. Some of
:their amplifier circuits are pretty nice, most of their mobile amplifiers
:are crap. Every amplifier they've produced had/has shortfalls in the
:designs... but so has most every brand of amplifier made. If you want to
:use one, you buy it and improve it as best possible and practical.

: What's your point? That you can't afford anything but Pride amps? Hey, I'll
: believe THAT! What I WON'T believe is that you designed and/or built any big
: amps (tube or ss) that worked! I think you have a few cheap amps that you value
: ONLY because you can't afford anything else!

The point was that I've have actual experience with the topic amplifiers,
something you seem to lack. You have me confused with someone who cares
that you believe I've designed or built amplifiers that worked. What you
think about hot switching TR relays has so far proven to be dated or wrong.

I'm slightly amused by your assumptions of my financial status frankie.
I'll be fine without your help, thank you. Back to the personal attacks
again... indicates you're about out of plank and ready to go over the
side. Watch out for the sharks...

:Your talking an old Motrac era tube radio, originally designed from the
:60's. You are not talking about any amateur or commercial amplifier
:produced on a large scale. ... or for the most part, even a relative small
:scale production for the consumer.

: Your lack of experience is showing yet again. Those old radios used the circuits
: most hacked by amateurs for both homebrew AND manufactured amps. Are you so
: stupid to think that the big companies used circuits designed by amateurs? No,
: not even close, Skippy, they used circuits designed by PROFESSIONALS, and the
: amateurs copied them!

Frank, the only thing I take out of a Motrac Radio are the receiver front
end... the rest is almost not worth pulling out of the radio. (actually I
do take a few more parts out of them for salvage).

What part of a Motrac era radio or circuit is going into my current
amplifier project frankie...?

Just as a trivia note... many of the engineers and technicians working at
Motorola and GE (and other radio companies) are/were hams.

You just want to focus around your vintage experience with a 60's era
radio to make your arc'd relay contacts comment(s) valid, even though the
radio hasn't been produced in some decades. No one is using that stuff
anymore frankie...

:The replacement for your mentioned 60's designed radio is/was a radio with
:delay A+ and A- controls and a reed relay switching 100 watts plus of RF.
:Commonly called a Micor... or the Mocom 70 depend on your pocket book and
:how deep you let Motorola into it.

: All Motorola radios used sequential switching. Check your Micor manual and look
: for the "P-T-T sequencing diagram" in the "Control Board" section. There you
: will find a diagram similar to the schematic I posted. And whether the
: sequencing is done with reed relays (a la Micor), seperate relays (a la Pride),
: or gapped relay contacts (a la Motorola, GE, Henry, Uniden, Kenwood, Henry,

Cute, but that still doesn't qualify your arc'd contacts relay statement,
of which you started out with... I hate to rain on your parade, but the
Micor base stations I have here, use only one reed relay (which you stated
doesn't handle rf). The typical delayed and Keyed A+ and A- lines in
those radios are clearly done to prevent hot switching, it's even
mentioned in a few places in their service manual. There's not an arc'd
relay contact in the place... went out with the Motrac it did... :-) your
first example radio.

Again frankie...
How about a mention of any current product amplifier product using
your special arc'd relays to switch "tr" the rf..? You can pick any of
the brands you mention above... I've got access to manuals for most
anything they've ever made.
How about the brand and part number for a current production (typical)
open frame relay made with special arc'd contacts for RF switching..?

: Collins...etc, etc), it all amounts to the same effect. The PROBLEM is that you
: can't accept that there is, and has been for some time, another method of
: sequential switching other than what you have learned from the internet! Get
: over your ego trip, learn from your mistakes, and move on!

I've yet to see any valid brand/model example made within the last few
decades that sequential switches RF using your arc'd relay contacts
method. You try like heck to skew your original arc'd contacts statements
over to a sequential switching topic... but homey ain't gonna' let you get
away with it. Care to address the original topic with the proper
answer..? We haven't seen the correct reply yet... we're waiting.

:Jeez frankie, in case you hadn't noticed... much of current amateur
:amplifier technology uses fast relays and electronic bias which don't
:require sequenced t/r relays. A typical reed or vacuum relay is faster
:than the typical driving radio/exciter. I can't believe you don't know
:this stuff... :-)

: So why do the same radios use delay lines for their sequential switching? And
: before you whine about going off-topic, don't forget that YOU were the one who
: first mentioned delay lines!

The original hot switching topic has to do with RF from the driving radio
(exciter/transmitter) arriving at the amplifier before the amplifiers
internal relay switching is completed. I wont bother calling you on the
off topic issue here, but I will say that the delay line question would
probably be specific to model of radio. I have radios which have them, I
have radios which don't have delay lines. It's brand/model/application
specific.

:[snipage of frankies previous dance and sing, topic avoidance...)
: What did you snip? I checked the previous post and it looks like you didn't snip
: anything....?

Then don't spazz about it... simple enough.

:: That didn't answer the question -- why are they "bad news"? Because they aren't
:: "popular"? Maybe you should take a closer look at some of these un-"popular"
:: amps from makers like Collins, Henry, Kenwood.... or hey, you could even check
:: your copy of the ARRL handbook! I have the 1978 edition and it shows a couple
:: examples of sequenced relays.
:
:Notice the Decade... 1978 We've come a long way from 1978. Let me
:repeat the question; are there any current Amplifier mfgrs using
:Sequential Relays to switch RF..?

: Almost all of them, including your referenced Micor. But that didn't answer the
: question -- why are they "bad news"?

The Micor never hot switched because the payed attention to details...
even without a reed relay in place, hot switching would have been minimal
because they delay the RF to allow the relay time to complete movement.
The manuals clearly state said... Now, on to the current generation...

The "bad news" answer was addressed earlier in this follow up post.

I believe if you check the current Amateur product line, many or
most of the serious amplifier mfgrs are using vacuum and reed relay
switching and even pin diode (type circuit) switched. Those that include
the just mentioned do not have a problem with hot switching rf. There are
and will always be some lower priced amplifiers which use the classic
frame type relay switching. To addres the hot switching issue, many have
tried to include relay switching speed-up circuits in the TR controls.

:As a sidebar notation: The collins 30-L1, 30-S1, Henry Series and the ill
:fated Kenwood TL-series of hf amplifiers did not use sequential relays for
:RF switching. Many or most of the above hot switch rf, which is not good
:news. That's where this all started...

: Aside from the fact that triodes don't have screen grids, keep going.....

What would having screen grids matter in the subject of hot switching
frankie..? Hows does it relate..? A tetrode equiped Collins 30-S1 hot
switches just as bad as some of the 3-500z amplifiers by those other
mfgrs.

:No, I think that material writen in 1978 was probably pretty good in
:1978, not always the best in 2003... some 25 years later. Things
:change... big time.

: How? Does the current ARRL handbook say something different? Does it assume that
: we are all using 1n4007's that were made within the past couple years (you know,
: the years when they are manufactured to such tight tolerances that they all
: switch off at EXACTLY the same time?)? Or does it realize the possibility that
: some of us don't have a retail account with Perfection Rectifier, INC?

Some of the current handbooks mention special diode or rectifier banks
made for amplifier applications. The common units are the "Silicon Alley"
k2au type high voltage rectifiers which are actually just series strings
of diodes in potted material.... and get this... they have not parallel
caps or resistors inside, nor do the recomend them.

The last bank of Continental Broadcast transmitter rectifiers I had to
replace were pretty much the same type of unit. Larger rectifier units
made up of potted series diode strings. Same with the last Elcom, Bauer,
Sparta, CCA and similar broadcast transmitter rectifier units I've had to
replace. It's a common layout, I'm happy to say they do not often fail.

I buy my common 1Nxxxx series diodes from Digikey or Newark.

You would have to consult a specific hand book project for me to provide
some feedback about said... Rich, many others and myself don't always
take the handbook information as 100% That's why the amps list server is
so popular, these topics are mentioned and gone over.

:My original statement was about hot switching rf through the example
:amplifier, your attempts to divert to some other dual relay example are
:bogus.

: There is no diversion, Skippy. Hot switching RF is easily avoided by sequential
: switching; i.e, sequential relays.

Tell me/us how a typical exciter/radio/transmitter providing a very
optomistic... slightly delayed rf signal and external amplifier TR
relay contact closure could possibly transfer the coaxial paths ("tr
switch") using your original arc'd contact relays..?

Unless the relay are very fast... using reed relays you stated would
not handle rf... or vacuum type or a pin diode type switching is used, hot
switching will probably happen.

When you use some of the above mentioned... sequential relay switching
requrements in the common current generation rf amplifier go out the
window. Simple enough and you learned it on the internet... from me even.

:Special sequential RF or your magic modified arc'd open frame type relays
:are old technology and not used in modern equipment. By nature, they are
:expensive and unreliable when compared to electronic switching (pin
:diode) reed or vacuum relays used in most current Amateur Amplifiers.
:Simple enough...

: But the amplifier in question didn't use PIN diodes, or indicate the use of reed
: or vacuum relays. Now what's your problem, Skippy?

Not a problem on my part, was on your part when I mentioned the original
topic amplifier hot switched (used a typical open frame relay).

Any amplifier which senses rf to signal and change it's T/R relay, hot
switches big time bad.

:I'm sure we'll be waiting some time for your example of special
:model sequential tr (for switching rf) relays used in any modern radio
:equipment. Those mechnical relays your standing behind are long gone from
:the big picture.
:The clock ticks louder and louder...

: You seem to have an answer for everything else (except why sequential relays are
: "bad news"), so why do some manufacturers still use open-contact relays?

Cost mostly... most all of the better stuff has moved to diode switching
circuits, vacuum and reed relays to increase their T/R speeds... which
prevent hot switching.

:"Your trap" seems to be shut on any current example..? what's up with
:that frankie..?

: Why are sequential relays "bad news", Skippy?

See my answer toward the first part of this text frankie... you've tried
to rehash that question 3 or 4 times now. When refering to your original
mentioned arc'd contact type relays... they hot switch.

:Onward...
:The number of relays required to complete the TR function is another
:whole topic.

: Don't pull that off-topic crap -- why are sequential relays "bad news"? Address
: the issue, Skippy!

If you review you past post... those darn motrac era arc'd relays are
waiting for you to come home for your crow sandwich.

: I do not care to bring in your latest off topic
:number of relay diversion as it was never part of the original thread.
:Stay on track frankie.

: Gladly. Why are sequential relays "bad news"?

You gotta love it...

:The original amplifier circuit which started all this, is still hot
:switching RF.

: Possible, yet unproven. Regardless, why are sequential relays "bad news"?

If it was the original open frame type relay, there is almost no other end
result. Notice how I wrote "almost"... there are ways to prevent
hot switching of vintage amplifiers... a whole different thread, maybe
another time. Is your bad news diatribe all you're holding onto now
frankie... the plank is getting even shorter... the sharks are hungry.

: Your original followup to my mention of said suggested the
:amplifier might have had a sequential relay (or similar function) TR
:switching RF. I claim is does not and I stand by it until you prove
:otherwise.

: Then it shall remain unproven. Still, why are sequential relays "bad news"?

How many of your reading this think frankie's fallen overboard..? :-)

:By the way Mr Technology... since you're paying attention of course..
:
:A typical "properly designed" amateur amplifier with reed relay switching
:probably doesn't have to have a sequential relay circuit, the reed relay
:is often faster than any typical Amateur Radio driving said amplifier.

: The primary purpose of sequential relays is to provide the proper sequence
: between RX RF, audio input, final drive, final load and final power input (and
: screen bias for pentode/tetrode finals). Screw up the sequence and you can screw
: up the tranceiver. Now, why are sequential relays "bad news", Skippy?

Twas an amplifier frankie, not a radio...
The original amplifier didn't have your magic list of additional functions
listed above. It had one or more open frame relays that hot switched,
regardless of any special arc'd contact you may claim it has/had, that is
all...

::I guess all the keyed A+ and A- used by companies like Motorola (for
::decades) prefer the harder route. Come on now frankie...
:
:: No. After the old tube monsters went extinct, Motorola took a different path and
:: built some radios that put the relay sequencing into the mic switch, which
:: wasn't too popular because the mics weren't interchangeable between radios. But
:: many shops tried anyway, resulting in a lot of bad radios, which is one reason
:: why their radios sucked for a long time. The Mocom line used a single sequenced
:: relay, which was made just before they began using sequenced reed relays (using
:: circuits similar to what I provided in the schematic).
:
:Motorola produced high powered tube amplifiers through the 80's and into
:the 90's.

: So?

When addressing the original topic of amplifiers, motorola used fast reed
relays for tube amp circuits well into the 90's. The were fast and they
did not hot switch. Your Motrac generation arc'd relays were long gone
from the scene.

:These magic radios you claim Motorola produced with sequential TR - RF
:switching... how about a model name...? In the commercial world, they
:were not long term reliable, they were expensive and they fell by the
:wayside when the technology moved on... some 25 or more years ago..?

: All of them, or haven't you been paying attention?

Your lifted web picture shows two relays... which Motorola product used
two sequenced relays..? Were they arc'd contact type like you first
started out with... or were they reed relays which you claimed were bad
for RF..?

:: But you should know all this already because you are a radio tech, right?
:
:Yeah, just by luck I worked for a Motorola Service Station for "a few
:years", it also happens to be one of the largest in the Nation... still.

: Then why haven't you learned anything about sequential relays? What did you do
: there -- mop the floors in the heads?

Maybe it won't matter if you walk the plank... the sharks may not eat you
for fear of too much gas.

:So after you abandon your Sequential relay statements and try to merge
:your current foot in mouth position into some type of sequential reed
:relay circuit... how about you get back on track. As in current
:amplifier or radio technology... some 20 to 25 year later.

: You keep whining about "dated" technology, yet you don't even know what
: was used in the past OR the present.

You're pretty much out of steam now frankie... it's a beatiful day outside
and I'm going to start putting in arc'd relays into my pride amplifiers,
so hopefully you've got something valid in the next few statements... or
I'm pretty much done with you.

::I believe the original subject was an Amplifier... was it not..? The
::last radio with a t/r relay was made ...? .... years ago..? ... decades
::ago..?
:
:: T/R relays are still used today -- did you forget about that amplifier we were
:: talking about?
:
:Was a pride right..? if it was made as shown in the original diagram, it
:still hot switches RF as I first mentioned. You claim it doesn't and you
:are wrong. Nothing has changed...

: Wrong. Most of Pride's amps used seperate relays in a mode where one relay
: controlled the other -- sequenced relays.

And they hot switched rf like a mo-fo... I haven't seen a pride amp that
didn't hot switch rf.

::: Reed relays don't carry RF very well. And they certainly don't carry
::: power because it tends to vaporize the Hg and destroy the relay. They
::: are usually only used for low-voltage DC and audio switching. But you
::: knew that, didn't you Skippy?
::
::I'm laughing at you big time here frankie.. I guess decades of Motorola,
::GE, EF Johnson, Aerotron rf amplifier and radio switching with reed relays
::doesn't prove anything.
:
:: By "power" I meant kilowatts, but I'll let you gloat for a while anyway because
:: I should have stated myself more clearly.
:
:The original amplifier was not at the kilowatt level.... but just for the
:sake of others reading this. The typical multi kilowatt level amateur
:amplifier uses reed relay switching on the input and vacuum relay
:switching on the output. In some cases, vacuum relays are used on both the
:input and the output. They handle the RF well and they are very fast...
:fast enough that the driving radio is most often not subject to rf hot
:switching.

: Nobody said they weren't fast. I said they are lossy; and they are when compared
: to a good open-contact relay designed for power RF. Reed relays are cheaper and
: smaller. If given a choice, I'll spend a couple extra bucks for a -good- relay.

So again... who's go those open contact relays that don't hot switch rf in
the typical amateur amplifier..? Why are most of the current amplifier
mfgrs using them..?

:Actually...
:I was hoping you'd comment on your statement that "reed relays don't carry
:RF well..." but you avoided it big time.

: They don't. They are used because they are cheap and small.

.... and fast... and they work well... and they don't hot switch rf in a
typical amateur amplifier (properly designed of course), like the open
contact/frame relays do in typical layouts.

: quit professing your ignorance by trying to top someone with five years of
: college and over 25 years experience in the field! Hey, I don't know everything,

Only 5 years frankie..? down here, College is a 2 year visit.

Any topic related paperwork (certificates or diplomas) down the
educational isle for you...?

:Simple enough...
:Compared to the alternatives like pin diode, reed and vacuum relay, it's
:very unreliable.

: Wrong. The reliability of the electro-mechanical relay is a tough act to beat.
: While the vacuum relay reduces arcing of the contacts, that only extends the
: life of the contacts. The reed relay is based on the same principle, but it's
: advantages are only it's small size and low cost. The PIN diode has severe power
: limitations, and is highly vulnerable to transient peaks and surges. And when
: you consider that an open-contact relay is easily maintained just by cleaning
: the contacts, and replaced with the simplicity of a vacuuum tube, there are FEW
: devices that can be considered to be as reliable.

That's why most of the current amateur amplifier mfgrs are not using
them..?

: It's also more expensive than some of the circuits which
:replaced it.

: You get what you pay for.

Hey, we agree on one thing...

:Now your turn frankie.... who's bending relay contacts these days and
:where can we find it done..?

: Beats me. But if you want to know who is using sequential relays, pick just
: about anybody in the list. How they implement them is strictly a matter for

Aaaaahhhhh.... again we see you try and merge your original arc'd relay
contacts into a now revised sequential relay bail out topic...

Nope, you made the arc'd relay statements and you get to stay with them
frankie. No cigar on the bail out.

: their engineers. For the amateur building an amp using open-contact relays, I
: would recommend gapping the contacts on one relay as one method of sequencing
: the switching, and I know that some do it that way. For manufacturing, I don't
: know why anyone would use an open-contact relay except for RF power switching.

My how the story changes....

: Frankly, I'm suprised how many use reed relays and not open-contact relays for
: RF power switching. But that's their problem because I don't use those radios or
: recommend them to any of my customers. If you saw the specs for yourself, you
: wouldn't either.

You might ask most of the major amp mfgrs and post your question on amps.
You could get unbiased answers from people in the industry. I might be
one of them... :-)

: So? People still use low-tech devices like wheel-barrows, matches, .... heck,
: even alcohol has been around for thousands of years and still works just the
: same! Do you barbecue with charcoal or propane (yuk!)? Is the fabric in the
: clothing you wear not made on a loom? And I think that even down there in
: granola-land that boats float based on the principle of Archimedes law of
: displacement. Just because technology is "dated" doesn't mean it's "bad news".

It is when it hot switches RF...

:It's been fun for the most part.
:
:"73's and good luck in the contest"
:skipp

: Read a book.

Do almost every day frankie... OK, I'm pretty much done with you for
this thread... you can continue to walk the arc'd relay plank if you want.

Maybe next time you won't try to jump around off topic so much... better
than previous times... but still pretty much a poor attempt at a smoke
screen on your part.

Sum it up frankie... open frame "arc'd" relays in typical amateur
amplifier rf switching "TR" circuits hot switch. In most typical cases,
they do not complete their movement before the rf arrives. In short, they
are not fast enough for many modern radios. Hot Switching is bad news.

that is all... I'm out of here.

skipp
http://sonic.ucdavis.edu

rip: Bob Hope, a great man...