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Why You Don't Like The ARRL
This came from another radio group. They are doing a survey to find
out why some people do not like the ARRL. I don't like it because it costs to much. If it were $10 a year I might consider joining. Louis Subj: [REPEATER] Off List: ARRL Date: 12/11/2003 5:43:47 AM Pacific Standard Time From: Reply-to: To: CC: Hi all, This is directed only to those who are NOT currently ARRL members. I have agreed to help compile a survey which seeks answers for these two questions: 1: If you are not a member of the ARRL, why not? 2: If you were a member of the ARRL and quit, why? Please respond by December 18th. * Please answer only OFF list to in order keep the clutter on the remailer down. Thank-you for assisting in this survey. Bill Pasternak, WA6ITF |
Louis C. LeVine wrote:
This came from another radio group. They are doing a survey to find out why some people do not like the ARRL. I don't like it because it costs to much. If it were $10 a year I might consider joining. Louis I do like the ARRL. Do I agree with everything they do? Nope. I don't agree with everything everyone does. Expensive? A bit, but only for those that think they are just taking out a magazine subscription. Love their website, I've mined enough out of that to justify the membership dues. And the alternitive is? - Mike KB3EIA - |
"Mike Coslo" wrote : : And the alternitive is? : DARC works good for us. 73/88 BGO -- "All persons, living or dead, are purely coincidental, and should not be construed." |
In article , hamop_62
@hotmail.com says... This came from another radio group. They are doing a survey to find out why some people do not like the ARRL. I don't like it because it costs to much. If it were $10 a year I might consider joining. Louis "snip" Bill Pasternak, WA6ITF I *am* a member of ARRL, but do find the membership a little steep... I'd go $25,, but will think long and hard about renewing at $40. I think a lot of the long gray vanity call lists of DX and contest results should be moved out of QST and onto some sub menu web page where the three people who give a damn could look them up. QST is a pretty good rag; it can still be improved. I object to ARRL's position that we should not be discussing sex, politics or religion on the bands...what else is left worth talking about? BUT I wish ARRL or *someone* could act effectively to make these discussions a bit more civil. I don't think ARRL is doing enough of the "right stuff" to attract newcomers, particularly youngsters, to the hobby. Often the emphasis is too much on technolgy and equipment and not enough on the social exploration that's possible with our radios. On positive side I think ARRL is still doing a pretty decent job representing our interests to the Beltway Bandits. 73 KC2LVQ |
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"William Mutch" wrote I think a lot of the long gray vanity call lists of DX and contest results should be moved out of QST and onto some sub menu web page where the three people who give a damn could look them up. You must have been distracted by a passing bimbo or something, but DXCC listings were removed from QST several years ago and moved to the DXCC Annual Report which goes only to DXCC participants. The contest result listings similarly have been removed from QST and now can be accessed on the web. I object to ARRL's position that we should not be discussing sex, politics or religion on the bands...what else is left worth talking about? BUT I wish ARRL or *someone* could act effectively to make these discussions a bit more civil. ARRL makes no regulations whatsoever. You can talk about what ever you deem proper, and only Riley Hollingsworth will challenge you if he thinks you're over the line. 73, de Hans, K0HB |
And the alternitive is?
N8WWM's favorite: http://www.rara.org/ Must be a part of the "Great Lakes Chapter" serving Michigan, Ohio and surrounding states, with their grandmaster WA8PUD!!! LOL!! |
Radioman wrote:
And the alternitive is? N8WWM's favorite: http://www.rara.org/ Must be a part of the "Great Lakes Chapter" serving Michigan, Ohio and surrounding states, with their grandmaster WA8PUD!!! LOL!! Hehe, charter member!?! http://tinyurl.com/yu6l |
Sir, if you are so interested in having a magazine dedicated to the free
banding people why don't you start one. With 15 million, seems that you would end up as a financial wizard. The ARRL isn't going to print anything about free banding when they operate on frequencies they are not permitted. "Licensing" is the name of the game. "Legal" operation is the name of the game. Maybe you should go back to printing a "CB" magazine, something like there was back in the 60's-70's. Jose wrote: I don't lilke the ARRL, because QST does not print any articles on Freebanding. Freebanding IS more popular than ham radio, and we represent almost 15 million new potential ARRL members. Too bad the ARRL Yankees can't figure this out. Jose |
Jose wrote:
I don't lilke the ARRL, because QST does not print any articles on Freebanding. =A0 Freebanding IS more popular than ham radio, and we represent almost 15 million new potential ARRL members. =A0 Too bad the ARRL Yankees can't figure this out. Jose _ Preferring to dress in drag as a woman, 209.195.185.229 at nauticom.net pouted his lips, applied his ruby-red lipstick, shaved his legs and called himself a she, and referred to himself as "Marylou" with: Sir, if you are so interested in having a magazine dedicated to the free banding people why don't you start one. Junior: That's NOT what he said. Read it again and try mouthing the words outoud s-l-o-w-l-y. With 15 million, seems that you would end up as a financial wizard. As you,,,, The ARRL isn't going to print anything about free banding when they operate on frequencies they are not permitted. It has been discussed in the past. When did this new rule you speak of become adhered to by the ARRL? "Licensing" is the name of the game. The game is whatever we define it to be, despite your failure at defining rules for others. "Legal" operation is the name of the game. Umm,,no. Freebanding is not legal. Since your game is apparenty diffferent than that of others, you would best yourself by not telling others how to play theirs. Maybe you should go back to printing a "CB" magazine, something like there was back in the 60's-70's. Several subscription-only 'zines are available featuring cb AND freebanding. |
Alfa-Tango International is the
licensing authority. LMFAO!!!! |
"Jose" wrote in message ... I don't lilke the ARRL, because QST does not print any articles on Freebanding. Freebanding IS more popular than ham radio, and we represent almost 15 million new potential ARRL members. Too bad the ARRL Yankees can't figure this out. Jose "Louis C. LeVine" wrote in message om... This came from another radio group. They are doing a survey to find out why some people do not like the ARRL. I don't like it because it costs to much. If it were $10 a year I might consider joining. Louis Subj: [REPEATER] Off List: ARRL Date: 12/11/2003 5:43:47 AM Pacific Standard Time From: Reply-to: To: CC: Hi all, This is directed only to those who are NOT currently ARRL members. I have agreed to help compile a survey which seeks answers for these two questions: 1: If you are not a member of the ARRL, why not? 2: If you were a member of the ARRL and quit, why? Please respond by December 18th. Please answer only OFF list to in order keep the clutter on the remailer down. Thank-you for assisting in this survey. Bill Pasternak, WA6ITF A troll of course. But to enlightnen the uneducated; From the front cover of QST. "Official Journal of ARRL The national association for AMATEUR RADIO" Any questions JOSE? Dan/W4NTI |
Grümwîtch thë Ünflãppåblê wrote: "Mike Coslo" wrote : : And the alternitive is? : DARC works good for us. So you went over to the DARC side? - Mike KB3EIA - |
Jose wrote:
I don't lilke the ARRL, because QST does not print any articles on Freebanding. Freebanding IS more popular than ham radio, and we represent almost 15 million new potential ARRL members. Too bad the ARRL Yankees can't figure this out. Jose Why should the ARRL or anyone else, support a bunch of illegal law breaking operators? |
Jose wrote:
You should really self-examine the hatred in your heart, especially during this festive of seasons. Alfa-Tango International is the licensing authority. And it has no authority other than what it self subscribes. The FCC is the only authority that can issue licenses to use the radio spectrum in the U.S. and other countries have their own license structure. Alfa-Tango International has no authority to issue licenses for any use of the radio spectrum. It is just more "freeband" nonsense, and there is no "freeband" in the U.S. as those frequencies you use as a "freeband" are allocated to other services who have ligitimate licenses to use those frequencies. You ATI license isn't worth the paper it is written on and carries no authority whatsoever. |
KØHB wrote:
"William Mutch" wrote I think a lot of the long gray vanity call lists of DX and contest results should be moved out of QST and onto some sub menu web page where the three people who give a damn could look them up. You must have been distracted by a passing bimbo or something, but DXCC listings were removed from QST several years ago and moved to the DXCC Annual Report which goes only to DXCC participants. What's that on page 94-99 of the August 2003 QST then? |
Jose wrote:
I don't lilke the ARRL, because QST does not print any articles on Freebanding. Freebanding IS more popular than ham radio, and we represent almost 15 million new potential ARRL members. Too bad the ARRL Yankees can't figure this out. What about the ARRL Red Sox? ;-) |
"Robert Casey" wrote What's that on page 94-99 of the August 2003 QST then? Honor Roll listings. |
"KØHB" wrote:
"Robert Casey" wrote What's that on page 94-99 of the August 2003 QST then? Honor Roll listings. Vintage Mopar muscle car fans too. (66-74) |
"Jack" wrote in message ... This could be relaxed a little bit. The rules that disallow controversial topics sure don't stop arguing and ill-will on the bands. :-( There is no rule against controversial topics. However there is a recommendation that one use common sense and remember that on the air we should be ambassadors of good will. So it is considered inappropriate to discuss such subjects with a stranger, especially those in other countries, since you may inadvertently offend them. On the other hand, discussing a controversial subject with someone you know well is reasonable. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
"Dee D. Flint" wrote:
"Jack" wrote in message ... This could be relaxed a little bit. The rules that disallow controversial topics sure don't stop arguing and ill-will on the bands. :-( There is no rule against controversial topics. However there is a recommendation that one use common sense and remember that on the air we should be ambassadors of good will. So it is considered inappropriate to discuss such subjects with a stranger, especially those in other countries, since you may inadvertently offend them. On the other hand, discussing a controversial subject with someone you know well is reasonable. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE What Dee D said. |
He needs a louder mic so he can shout louder to truckers so they will
stop and let him suck their dicks... Who can take a hard dick Suck out all the goo Stuff his nose up a butt crack And rim it real good too Twistedhed Oh Twistedhed does Twistedhed does cuz he mixes jizz with spit And thinks it tastes real good Who can bend it over And beg for throbbing dick And when he's finished gettin' pumped Turn around and lick a prick Twistedhed Oh Twistedhed does Twistedhed does cuz he mixes jizz with spit And thinks it tastes real good Twistedhed thinks Faggot keyclown twinks Are satisfiyng and delicious Talk about his childhood wishes He really blows those faggot bitches Who can hit a truckstop Announce that he'll be reamed Collect ten bucks a trucker And then suck up all the cream Twistedhed Twistedhed does Twistedhed does cuz he mixes jizz with spit And thinks it tastes real good Twistedhed thinks Faggot keyclown twinks Are satisfiyng and delicious Talk about his childhood wishes He really blows those faggot bitches Sorry Sammy...we could not resist... Mc Campbell, David P, KE4BKF (Extra) 18150 SW 68 Ct Acct 2135 Fort Lauderdale, FL 33331 Previous license class: General Licensee ID: L00206848 FRN: 0003137783 Issue Date: May 18, 1993 Expire Date: May 18, 2003 Date of last Change: Oct 15, 2001 (License Modified) (Twistedhed) wrote in message ... Jose wrote: I don't lilke the ARRL, because QST does not print any articles on Freebanding. Freebanding IS more popular than ham radio, and we represent almost 15 million new potential ARRL members. Too bad the ARRL Yankees can't figure this out. Jose Preferring to dress in drag as a woman, 209.195.185.229 at nauticom.net pouted his lips, applied his ruby-red lipstick, shaved his legs and called himself a she, and referred to himself as "Marylou" with: Sir, if you are so interested in having a magazine dedicated to the free banding people why don't you start one. Junior: That's NOT what he said. Read it again and try mouthing the words outoud s-l-o-w-l-y. With 15 million, seems that you would end up as a financial wizard. As you,,,, The ARRL isn't going to print anything about free banding when they operate on frequencies they are not permitted. It has been discussed in the past. When did this new rule you speak of become adhered to by the ARRL? "Licensing" is the name of the game. The game is whatever we define it to be, despite your failure at defining rules for others. "Legal" operation is the name of the game. Umm,,no. Freebanding is not legal. Since your game is apparenty diffferent than that of others, you would best yourself by not telling others how to play theirs. Maybe you should go back to printing a "CB" magazine, something like there was back in the 60's-70's. Several subscription-only 'zines are available featuring cb AND freebanding. |
Kee Low Cycle wrote:
"JJ" wrote in message ... Jose wrote: You should really self-examine the hatred in your heart, especially during this festive of seasons. Alfa-Tango International is the licensing authority. And it has no authority other than what it self subscribes. The FCC is the only authority that can issue licenses to use the radio spectrum in the U.S. and other countries have their own license structure. Alfa-Tango International has no authority to issue licenses for any use of the radio spectrum. It is just more "freeband" nonsense, and there is no "freeband" in the U.S. as those frequencies you use as a "freeband" are allocated to other services who have ligitimate licenses to use those frequencies. You ATI license isn't worth the paper it is written on and carries no authority whatsoever. BBZZZZZZZZZT! Wrong answer Goofy. And you just opened your No-Code Tech mouth and inserted your fat foot into it. Although ATI is not recognized by the American FCC, ATI is recognized by several foreign governments, especially in South America & Central America. Go back to helping Ox chase trucks. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAH ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL Name those countries and show reliable documentation of your claim, and BBZZZZZZZZT! Your are wrong Dumbo in assuming I am a no code tech. Been licensed over 40 years. |
JJ wrote:
Been licensed over 40 years. What's your call, JJ? |
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Steve Robeson, K4CAP wrote:
(Louis C. LeVine) wrote in message . com... This came from another radio group. They are doing a survey to find out why some people do not like the ARRL. I don't like it because it costs to much. If it were $10 a year I might consider joining. Louis And just exactly what do you expect that they could do for $10.00 a month? Please name me ONE organization in ANY "hobby" activity that provdes the scope of servcies and resources the ARRL offers to it's target peer group. Awaiting your informed response. I think this is one of those cases where some people think that their membership is a subscription to QST. Its a lot more than that. ARRL does a lot for Amateurs, even those who hate the organization. - Mike KB3EIA - |
Kee Low Cycle spluttered:
You do not have an amateur radio call sign. You have operated on CB for almost 40 years. Prove otherwise. What is your ham radio call sign? Kee Low Cycle Well if that is what you wish to believe mr. kreep low cycle, then you are perfectly within your right to do so. I have never operated a tranmitter on cb or any frequency I am not licensed to use, and I don't have to prove a cottin-pickin thing to you. |
I don't like ARRL because:
1) Membership price too high 2) Can't separate QST from membership 3) QST only counts as $15 of the $39 membership fee 4) Incentive licensing from the 60's 5) Ham radio is a dying hobby 6) 5wpm Extras 7) No value given for the money invested 8) No accountability of the board and Executive staff 9) Really doesn't represent the majority of hams (majority don't belong) 10) Really no different than 'NRA', 'AARP', 'NAACP'. Take your money and use it for their own agenda, NOT yours! That is enough for a start. Sorry to see '73' and Wayne Green exit publishing. Sorry to see 'Ham Radio' exit publishing. ex ARRL member Mike Coslo wrote in message ... Steve Robeson, K4CAP wrote: (Louis C. LeVine) wrote in message . com... This came from another radio group. They are doing a survey to find out why some people do not like the ARRL. I don't like it because it costs to much. If it were $10 a year I might consider joining. Louis And just exactly what do you expect that they could do for $10.00 a month? Please name me ONE organization in ANY "hobby" activity that provdes the scope of servcies and resources the ARRL offers to it's target peer group. Awaiting your informed response. I think this is one of those cases where some people think that their membership is a subscription to QST. Its a lot more than that. ARRL does a lot for Amateurs, even those who hate the organization. - Mike KB3EIA - |
On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 17:33:25 -0500, "Kee Low Cycle"
wrote: "JJ" wrote in message ... Jose wrote: You should really self-examine the hatred in your heart, especially during this festive of seasons. Alfa-Tango International is the licensing authority. And it has no authority other than what it self subscribes. The FCC is the only authority that can issue licenses to use the radio spectrum in the U.S. and other countries have their own license structure. Alfa-Tango International has no authority to issue licenses for any use of the radio spectrum. It is just more "freeband" nonsense, and there is no "freeband" in the U.S. as those frequencies you use as a "freeband" are allocated to other services who have ligitimate licenses to use those frequencies. You ATI license isn't worth the paper it is written on and carries no authority whatsoever. BBZZZZZZZZZT! Wrong answer Goofy. And you just opened your No-Code Tech mouth and inserted your fat foot into it. Although ATI is not recognized by the American FCC, ATI is recognized by several foreign governments, especially in South America & Central America. Go back to helping Ox chase trucks. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAH ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL Recognized as what? Which foreign goverments? |
Lancer wrote:
And you just opened your No-Code Tech mouth and inserted your fat foot into it. Although ATI is not recognized by the American FCC, ATI is recognized by several foreign governments, especially in South America & Central America. Go back to helping Ox chase trucks. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAH ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL Recognized as what? Which foreign goverments? I ask basicly the same thing, which foreign countries, and to provide documented proof that those foreign countries recognized those "licenses", so far nothing from mr. kreep low cycle (just more cb bluster). The ATI is just an international club and any "license/call signs" issued carries no more authority to transmit on any frequency then if the ARRL issued licenses. |
"JEP" wrote in message m... I don't like ARRL because: 1) Membership price too high Really?? Many local clubs charge anywhere from $20 to $30 and can't do a whole lot for their members except maintain the local repeater. 2) Can't separate QST from membership Why would you want to? 3) QST only counts as $15 of the $39 membership fee Actually you are lucky that it counts as little as that. These days typical magazines generally cost $3 to $4 an issue so they must be getting a good break on the publishing. 4) Incentive licensing from the 60's That was the FCC's idea not the ARRL's. 5) Ham radio is a dying hobby There are more hams than ever before in history. 6) 5wpm Extras So what. The very earliest requirements for licensing hams were, guess what, 5wpm. 7) No value given for the money invested Let's see. Ham radio would have remained closed after WWI if not for the ARRL. They have managed to expand our HF and VHF frequencies. Battled, athough sometimes unsuccessfully, to preserve our allocations. Have lobbying power in Washinton. Convinced the FCC to come up with what is now PRB-1, which gives hams some protection from restrictive city ordinances on antenna height. They are now fighting BPL, which will tear up our HF bands if implemented, and they are working on a bill in Congress to give hams protection from restrictive covenants. You have and will continue to benefit from the ARRL's work, all without having contributed a dime. 8) No accountability of the board and Executive staff They are accountable to the membership. Any member can challenge them. Any member can get involved, run for a position, and work to change things. 9) Really doesn't represent the majority of hams (majority don't belong) That is not the ARRL's fault. They keep trying to recruit. That majority of hams that don't belong don't belong to any other organization either nor do they attempt to form an alternate organization. 10) Really no different than 'NRA', 'AARP', 'NAACP'. Take your money and use it for their own agenda, NOT yours! The agenda is set by the MEMBERS. Any time the MEMBERS do not like the policies they can elect new officials. The agenda is based on what members decide to push. That is enough for a start. Sorry to see '73' and Wayne Green exit publishing. Sorry to see 'Ham Radio' exit publishing. ex ARRL member You obviously expected the ARRL to ignore all the other member's preferences and expected them to have an agenda 100% tailored to your wants and expectations. That doesn't happen in any organization. If you want them to change, you have to get in there and work hard to get into the thick of the action. Sitting on the sidelines and criticizing doesn't accomplish anything. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
JEP wrote:
2) Can't separate QST from membership Check your local newstand or magazine rack in stores, many carry QST. You can purchase it without membership, or check you local library, they may carry it and you can read it for free. |
JEP wrote: I don't like ARRL because: 1) Membership price too high 2) Can't separate QST from membership 3) QST only counts as $15 of the $39 membership fee 4) Incentive licensing from the 60's 5) Ham radio is a dying hobby 6) 5wpm Extras 7) No value given for the money invested 8) No accountability of the board and Executive staff 9) Really doesn't represent the majority of hams (majority don't belong) 10) Really no different than 'NRA', 'AARP', 'NAACP'. Take your money and use it for their own agenda, NOT yours! That is enough for a start. Sorry to see '73' and Wayne Green exit publishing. Sorry to see 'Ham Radio' exit publishing. ex ARRL member Don't tell us. Send it to: Reply-to: with your real email addy. |
"Louis C. LeVine" wrote in message om... This came from another radio group. They are doing a survey to find out why some people do not like the ARRL. I don't like it because it costs to much. If it were $10 a year I might consider joining. Louis I don't like them because the head bosses see themselves as self-appointed gods of ham radio.... at least at one point in time they were trying to get the FCC to hand over authority of the ham radio spectrum to them entirely. Clint |
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
Steve Robeson, K4CAP wrote: (Louis C. LeVine) wrote in message . com... This came from another radio group. They are doing a survey to find out why some people do not like the ARRL. I don't like it because it costs to much. If it were $10 a year I might consider joining. Louis And just exactly what do you expect that they could do for $10.00 a month? Please name me ONE organization in ANY "hobby" activity that provdes the scope of servcies and resources the ARRL offers to it's target peer group. Awaiting your informed response. I think this is one of those cases where some people think that their membership is a subscription to QST. Its a lot more than that. ARRL does a lot for Amateurs, even those who hate the organization. - Mike KB3EIA - Fair enough. I dislike some of the policies that the ARRL has promoted in the past, and felt as if the ARRL did not represent me even though I have been a member since 1986. Luckily, the FCC went over the ARRL's head and showed a little lesdership with respect to licensing issues. 73, Brian |
"Brian" wrote in message om... Mike Coslo wrote in message ... Steve Robeson, K4CAP wrote: (Louis C. LeVine) wrote in message . com... This came from another radio group. They are doing a survey to find out why some people do not like the ARRL. I don't like it because it costs to much. If it were $10 a year I might consider joining. Louis And just exactly what do you expect that they could do for $10.00 a month? Please name me ONE organization in ANY "hobby" activity that provdes the scope of servcies and resources the ARRL offers to it's target peer group. Awaiting your informed response. I think this is one of those cases where some people think that their membership is a subscription to QST. Its a lot more than that. ARRL does a lot for Amateurs, even those who hate the organization. - Mike KB3EIA - Fair enough. I dislike some of the policies that the ARRL has promoted in the past, and felt as if the ARRL did not represent me even though I have been a member since 1986. Did you get actively involved? Did you become a section director? Did you campaign to sway the majority to your opinion? Or did you just write a letter or two complaining and were disappointed because it didn't instantly change the ARRL's policies? If you want your point of view to be policy then you have to become very politically active in an organization. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
Ragchewer wrote: Why do I not like the ARRL? I will answer that with another question. Would you trust a gang of Yankee carpetbaggers, the same bunch who stole from the southerners at the end of the War Between The States? You would? Good! Sign up for life membership with the rest of the NewingtonYankee gang. As for me, the league can go f..k itself, since that is what it has been doing to the rest of us for decades. RC Don't tell us. Send it to: Reply-to: with your real email addy. |
Clint wrote: I don't like them because the head bosses see themselves as self-appointed gods of ham radio.... at least at one point in time they were trying to get the FCC to hand over authority of the ham radio spectrum to them entirely. Clint Don't tell us. Send it to: Reply-to: with your real email addy. |
"JEP" wrote:
I don't like ARRL because: 1) Membership price too high 2) Can't separate QST from membership (snip) Several years ago (four or five), QST was available at the Barnes and Noble bookstore in this area. But it then disappeared off the shelf and I haven't seen it since. When I asked the manager about it, he looked on the computer and said the magazine was no longer available from the supplier. This was surprising since the magazine sold out almost immediately each month (I missed several issues because of that). The newsgroups rec.radio.shortwave and rec.radio.cb has been deleted from this reply (discussion is off-topic in those newsgroups). Dwight Stewart (W5NET) http://www.qsl.net/w5net/ |
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