I can rebuilt them myself if need be..But just the basics like replacing
brushes,regulators,diodes etc..Never did any rewinding but I do have access to
high wattage solder equip etc...But they are all in perfect functioning
condition..They are just from some charter buses that are being scraped off to
the junkyard because of age..I`m going to head down there now and grab several
of the newer looking ones just for the hell of it..Even if I never use them
once I test them and replace the brushes etc I should still be able to turn
alittle profit on them as I am in the tractor trailer parts business and go to
a bunch of repair shops everyday

The internet is more than a global pornography network

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 08:56:43 -0800, Jay in the Mojave
wrote in :

Hello Frank:

Hope you had a enjoyable Christmas.


I did, thanks. Did you have fun decorating the Joshua Tree?


Frank Gilliland wrote:

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 06:15:14 -0800, Jay in the Mojave
wrote in :


Hello Programo5:

At 15 dollars each, and used sounds like there are not in premium shape.

It may be possible to have them rewound for a higher current, for
running a 4 or 8 pill amps. My 4 pill 2SC2789 amp will draw 75 to 80
amps with no problem.

A 105 amp alternator may have a higher peak current capability than
just 105 amps. I have never measured it but I would think it would have
say a 10 to 20 percent higher peak intermittent rating. Anybody know
about this or measured it?



The current rating is for a specific RPM which is typically high. The
current drops off to a bare minimum at idle which is why you sometimes
see the idiot light come on while waiting at a stop light.

Gee whiz Frank, I have never seen the idiot light come on while idling,
with a alternator.


I see you have never been a used car salesman. It happens more often
with carbeurated vehicles, rarely with modern fuel injection systems.


Back in the 60s, the ol man had a Ford F100 Custom
Cab, Red Bucket Seats (OH YEAH!) with a 292 Y block that had the old
generator that would light up the idiot light while at a stop light.

I modified a Bronco, removing the 170 CI six cyclender and installing a
302 V8, during the 70's and did business with Bill Stroup Racing in Long
Beach Ca. Dear ol Dad called them up and asked what could be done to
improve the horse power in his truck as the 292 Y Block wouldn't do
wheel stands and left him in the slow lane way too long. So Dad
installed a Lincoln 430 with the automatic tranny. WOW! what a
difference. We had to replace the 4:11 gears and the read end to a 3/4
ton rear end, and 3:73 gears. The Palomar 150 Tube amp made a high
pitched noise due to the high out put alternator, Biiitcheeeen!


......hmmmmm


Most Installations I have seen with a 8 pill amp have had only a 100 amp
or so Alternator. So when the 8 pill amp wants to draw say double of
what a 4 pill amp will draw something like 150 to 160 amps or more, the
Alternator will put out its maximum output current, but the voltage will
drop, and the battery will start to put out current. And when the amp is
unkeyed the Alternator will try to recharge the battery, at a rapid
rate. Its possible to get behind the curve of the Alternator charging
the Battery, and the battery can over heat and possible be damaged with
high current charging over a long period of time.



Starting-type (auto) batteries are designed for fast charging.
However, a deep-cycle battery would be ruined by such cycling.

Yeah good call there. I replaced the wimpy 35 amp alternator on my "Put
and Park Mini truck with a 120 amp alternator. And had to modify the
regulator to have a delayed response to charge the battery as the bigger
alternator tried to charge the battery as it the engine was trying to
start. The 4 pill amp amp really got up and barked then.


Some of the newer cars have something like that built-in -- some of
them you have to rev the engine before the alternator will take over
the system and the alternator light goes out.


A lot of guys use large batteries. I think the large batteries is a bad
call as the Alternator should be able to source all the current, to keep
the voltage as close 14 volts under load to keep the out put power up
there.



Lead-acid batteries under charge (engine running) have a thing called
"surface charge" that's higher than the nominal 12.6 battery voltage.
Larger batteries have a larger surface charge, and when under load
they tend to keep up the system voltage better than smaller batteries.

Das right. Wonder what those spec are?


I don't think batteries are spec'd for surface charge.


And if a second Alternator is installed it can be wired to also
charge the vehicles battery or run the electrical system should the
stock Alternator fail.



You might have a problem with the regulators. If more than one
alternator is used it's best to run the second from a 'slave'
regulator that's controlled by a 'master' on the first alternator. If
you don't then one alternator will pull the full load until the
voltage drops down to the regulated voltage of the second. The result
is "stepped" regulation and can be quite noisy.

Is this advice from experience?


Actually, yes.


I have seen many alternators tied
together and not noticed any noise. When the load is applied to the
alternators is when they will be putting out the high currents, and
voltage regulators will be monitoring the out put of its alternator.

I know at times the alternator diodes shutting off will cause a noise,
that can be cured by a bypass capacitor on the alternators output terminal.


You probably didn't notice any noise because you were running AM and
the load drew down to the second alternator on key-up. Running SSB
would be a different story and your audio would include a 'clicking'
that followed the audio. But of course you wouldn't hear it anyway
because it happens when you are transmitting.

Anyway, stepped regulation is very hard on an alternator, causing
frequent surges through the field coil and regulator. They aren't
designed to work like that.


When the guys volt the amps, running more than 14 volts to increase the
out put power even more, then you must have one or more Alternators that
will have the current capability to maintain the higher voltage.



Max current is dictated only by the wire size. Without the regulator,
voltage is limited by the PIV of the rectifiers and the insulation
breakdown voltage. The latter is usually very high (~600 volts) so if
the rectifiers have a reasonably high voltage rating then you can
trash the internal regulator and use an external regulator to get
voltages up to 100 volts or more, depending on how fast you can spin
the rotor. But if all you want is max current at 16 to 18 volts then a
smaller pulley would probably do the trick.

Yeah thats how I think the AC Sky class of steel amplifiers are powered.
A alternator diodes are removed, and feeds a input of a 3 phase
transformer and it transforms the voltages to a much higher for the
tubes high voltage B+ voltages. And I have seen external diodes wired in
to allow more current capability.

I have seen the after market voltage regulator that allow the alternator
voltages to reach 18 Volts DC. Wonder how long the amps last doing that?


Depends on the amp. To be perfectly frank, if I used an amp I wouldn't
even mess with anything that runs from 12-14 volts. If solid-state I
would use 28 volt -minimum- for several reasons: power leads are
smaller and have less loss; transistors are more linear; efficiency is
higher because bias is a smaller percent of supply (CE bias can be as
high as 3-4 volts under heavy load, dropping nearly a third of your
supply voltage); voltage difference between battery and alternator is
smaller; etc, etc.


The
Alternators outputs can be connected together as they are diode isolated
internally, so feedback from one alternator into another alternator will
NOT happen.

One of the really neat installations I saw at one of the shoot-outs, was
a Bird Watt meter modified to also be able to indicate the amplifier
input voltage and current. And many guys have a separate volt and amp
meter on the dash to indicate the voltages and currents, pretty neat-o.



.....uh, voltmeters and ammeters in the dash aren't exactly new ideas.
Neither are voltmeters and ammeters at the input to the amp -- that's
how input power is measured. The old "5-watt" CB radios were rated by
their input power, and years ago the ham radio limits were also by
input power. Nothing new here except the modification of a Bird to do
the job of a cheap multimeter.

I am not saying this is a new idea, but a neat capability to have. And
one has to appreciate the work and ingenuity that goes into this type of
installation. Some of the guys have taken surplus Bird meters and added
them to the dash instrument cluster with back lights that look really
trick, that indicate voltage and current. A cluster of the Bird Meters
showing forward and reverse power, voltage and current look great.
Especillay when the mic is keyed and the back lights come on brighter.

I am planing to have my machinist drill in some small holes in my Bird
Watt Meter Model 43, just above the meter, so that a row of small LED's
can be installed that will indicate the Peak Instantness Power (PIP).
Not the RMS value which is the PEP value, but a power measurement taken
from the actual peak of the voltage, which will be a 3 dB increase in
indicated power. And make ya feel that your getting more power out. A
cheap way to make ya feel ya is ah gettin out hehehhehe.


Maybe that's why Motorola designated their cheap CB amp transistors as
MRF454 and MRF455 -- to appeal to the 'big engine' mentality.

"Jay in the Mojave" wrote in message
...
Hello Frank:
I modified a Bronco,

So do I, but mine not very modified.

removing the 170 CI six cyclender and installing a 302 V8,

Mine is a stock 2 barrel 302, now has 86,000 miles

during the 70's and did business with Bill Stroup Racing in Long Beach Ca.

Hey, mine is a Baja Stroppe, made in April 1973.

Dear ol Dad called them up and asked what could be done to improve the
horse power in his truck as the 292 Y Block wouldn't do wheel stands and
left him in the slow lane way too long. So Dad installed a Lincoln 430
with the automatic tranny.

LOL!!! A C4 trans no doubt.

WOW! what a difference. We had to replace the 4:11 gears and the read end
to a 3/4 ton rear end, and 3:73 gears. The Palomar 150 Tube amp made a
high pitched noise due to the high out put alternator, Biiitcheeeen!

Yeah, they only came with a 45 amp alt, not enough for
the Bronco, let alone a good amp. I put a 200 amp alt &
dual batts in my Bronco.


Jay in the Mojave

Hello Frank:


Frank Gilliland wrote:
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 08:56:43 -0800, Jay in the Mojave
wrote in :


Hello Frank:

Hope you had a enjoyable Christmas.



I did, thanks. Did you have fun decorating the Joshua Tree?

Thats a big Bozo No No, we are not allowed to cut down the Joshua Tree's
and such. But some people do put lights on them. There is a commitee
that use to go around and count the darn tree's. New contruction is the
omnly way I seen them cut down and removed. I have a few tree's on my
property but there out of the way.

You might have a problem with the regulators. If more than one
alternator is used it's best to run the second from a 'slave'
regulator that's controlled by a 'master' on the first alternator. If
you don't then one alternator will pull the full load until the
voltage drops down to the regulated voltage of the second. The result
is "stepped" regulation and can be quite noisy.

Is this advice from experience?



Actually, yes.

Ok I have not heard of this noise but will keep an ear for it.



I have seen many alternators tied
together and not noticed any noise. When the load is applied to the
alternators is when they will be putting out the high currents, and
voltage regulators will be monitoring the out put of its alternator.

I know at times the alternator diodes shutting off will cause a noise,
that can be cured by a bypass capacitor on the alternators output terminal.



You probably didn't notice any noise because you were running AM and
the load drew down to the second alternator on key-up. Running SSB
would be a different story and your audio would include a 'clicking'
that followed the audio. But of course you wouldn't hear it anyway
because it happens when you are transmitting.

Anyway, stepped regulation is very hard on an alternator, causing
frequent surges through the field coil and regulator. They aren't
designed to work like that.

I have to agree with that. The 120 amp alternator I had on my put and
park mini truck feed the vehicles system and of course charged the
battery. I used a 4 pill Amp that had wild differances in current draw
from almost nothing to a full on 80 amp draw. This was noticable when
the engine was running at around 3000 RPMs going down the highway while
talking SSB. It would end up stretching the single V belt that would
only last about 4 weeks. I came to have several spares belts and made up
a tool kit that would allow a fast change of the belt, as I got good at
it from experence. As I had changed many belts, I finnialy installed the
stock 65 amp alternator from just being sick and tired of having to
change the belt.


Maybe that's why Motorola designated their cheap CB amp transistors as
MRF454 and MRF455 -- to appeal to the 'big engine' mentality.

Yeah I am sure thats possible, but the nerd linger who designates the
numbers I am sure sets behind a desk and has his car serviced by normal
people.

I would have a number like MRF-HP/454CI-Inc. hehehehehhehe

Matched transistors would go by Balanced MRF-HP/454CI-Hipo Inc
Or even PT2M454-Hipo Inc (Pettle to the Metal) OH YEAH!

Jay in the Mojave

Hello Landshark:

Yeah I remember my stock 45 amp alternator on the 170 six cyclender
engine. I replaced the six 170CI engine with a 240 CI big six, but would
have to had the front end lengthen a little. So another trip Bill
Stroups place to get the factory V8 Engine mounts, that welded on nicly.
I had a 1964 Comet Calenty that had a lot of head work done. So the
heads went on a new 302 short block. Heads make a engine run.

The 45 amp alternator didnt last long with 4 each 100 watt off road
aircraft landing lights. After a long night run at Pismo Beach
California, 4 wheeling in the sand dunes and talking all over the place
on the radios all night long, I could smell the alternator windings.

The next morning I checked the alternator and it was Ka-Put. Jim's Auto
Parts and Machine shop brought me out a new 65 amp replacement
alternator, right out on the beach where we where camped. Again the CB
radio was a big help with the locals and such.

Jay in the Mojave


Landshark wrote:

"Jay in the Mojave" wrote in message
...

Hello Frank:
I modified a Bronco,


So do I, but mine not very modified.


removing the 170 CI six cyclender and installing a 302 V8,


Mine is a stock 2 barrel 302, now has 86,000 miles


during the 70's and did business with Bill Stroup Racing in Long Beach Ca.


Hey, mine is a Baja Stroppe, made in April 1973.


Dear ol Dad called them up and asked what could be done to improve the
horse power in his truck as the 292 Y Block wouldn't do wheel stands and
left him in the slow lane way too long. So Dad installed a Lincoln 430
with the automatic tranny.


LOL!!! A C4 trans no doubt.


WOW! what a difference. We had to replace the 4:11 gears and the read end
to a 3/4 ton rear end, and 3:73 gears. The Palomar 150 Tube amp made a
high pitched noise due to the high out put alternator, Biiitcheeeen!


Yeah, they only came with a 45 amp alt, not enough for
the Bronco, let alone a good amp. I put a 200 amp alt &
dual batts in my Bronco.



Jay in the Mojave

"Jay in the Mojave" wrote in message
...
Hello Landshark:

Yeah I remember my stock 45 amp alternator on the 170 six cyclender
engine. I replaced the six 170CI engine with a 240 CI big six, but would
have to had the front end lengthen a little. So another trip Bill Stroups
place to get the factory V8 Engine mounts, that welded on nicly.

Very important to do when converting a I6 to V8. If you don't
the engine will sit to far back and you'll have to pound in the
firewall to make it fit.

I had a 1964 Comet Calenty that had a lot of head work done. So the heads
went on a new 302 short block. Heads make a engine run.

Yes! It makes the motor breathe............


The 45 amp alternator didnt last long with 4 each 100 watt off road
aircraft landing lights. After a long night run at Pismo Beach California,
4 wheeling in the sand dunes and talking all over the place on the radios
all night long, I could smell the alternator windings.

Ah, the sweet smell of coinage dropping ;)


The next morning I checked the alternator and it was Ka-Put. Jim's Auto
Parts and Machine shop brought me out a new 65 amp replacement alternator,
right out on the beach where we where camped. Again the CB radio was a big
help with the locals and such.

Jay in the Mojave



Yeah, contrary what a couple of trolls here say, they are a great help.
My Stroppe is stock with the exception of a Tuffy center consol, 200 amp
alt, dual batts. I've already been offered
$35,000.00 for it, but turned it down. I'll be in LA for
Fabulous Ford Forever in April ( or March, never can remember) with it,
showing it off an Angelo's Burgers
in Anaheim the night Before.

Landshark

--
Is it so frightening to have me at your shoulder?
Thunder and lightning couldn't be bolder.
I'll write on your tombstone, ``I thank you for dinner.''
This game that we animals play is a winner.

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 04:11:38 -0800, Jay in the Mojave
wrote in :

snip
Is this advice from experience?



Actually, yes.

Ok I have not heard of this noise but will keep an ear for it.


Even better, install two ammeters (one on each alternator) and watch
how they -don't- share the load equally.


snip
Maybe that's why Motorola designated their cheap CB amp transistors as
MRF454 and MRF455 -- to appeal to the 'big engine' mentality.

Yeah I am sure thats possible, but the nerd linger who designates the
numbers I am sure sets behind a desk and has his car serviced by normal
people.


What's 'normal'?


I would have a number like MRF-HP/454CI-Inc. hehehehehhehe

Matched transistors would go by Balanced MRF-HP/454CI-Hipo Inc
Or even PT2M454-Hipo Inc (Pettle to the Metal) OH YEAH!


So if the amp has a cooling then it's got a 'blower'? Doesn't matter
since it probably wouldn't pass the emissions inspection. And the
bubble really bursts when you realize that it takes 3kW to equal the
power of a lawnmower engine. So throttle up that moped, Jay -- you be
ridin' with the big boys!

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 12:37:19 -0800, Frank Gilliland
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 08:56:43 -0800, Jay in the Mojave
wrote in :

Hello Frank:

Hope you had a enjoyable Christmas.


I did, thanks. Did you have fun decorating the Joshua Tree?


Frank Gilliland wrote:

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 06:15:14 -0800, Jay in the Mojave
wrote in :


Hello Programo5:

At 15 dollars each, and used sounds like there are not in premium shape.

It may be possible to have them rewound for a higher current, for
running a 4 or 8 pill amps. My 4 pill 2SC2789 amp will draw 75 to 80
amps with no problem.

A 105 amp alternator may have a higher peak current capability than
just 105 amps. I have never measured it but I would think it would have
say a 10 to 20 percent higher peak intermittent rating. Anybody know
about this or measured it?



The current rating is for a specific RPM which is typically high. The
current drops off to a bare minimum at idle which is why you sometimes
see the idiot light come on while waiting at a stop light.

Gee whiz Frank, I have never seen the idiot light come on while idling,
with a alternator.


I see you have never been a used car salesman. It happens more often
with carbeurated vehicles, rarely with modern fuel injection systems.


Why would it happen more often with a carburated vehicle?

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 19:51:08 GMT, Lancer wrote in
. com:

snip
Why would it happen more often with a carburated vehicle?


Because of electronic idle speed control systems: a lot of carbs don't
have them while most fuel injection systems do. Without those systems
the idle can vary quite a bit depending on the temp of the engine
and/or air, humidity, altitude, pressure, etc.

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:21:43 GMT, Lancer wrote in
53j3t0torc3illhomnmagddsi4un5noth8@2355323778:

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 12:37:19 -0800, Frank Gilliland
wrote:


Depends on the amp. To be perfectly frank, if I used an amp I wouldn't
even mess with anything that runs from 12-14 volts. If solid-state I
would use 28 volt -minimum- for several reasons: power leads are
smaller and have less loss; transistors are more linear; efficiency is
higher because bias is a smaller percent of supply (CE bias can be as
high as 3-4 volts under heavy load, dropping nearly a third of your
supply voltage); voltage difference between battery and alternator is
smaller; etc, etc.


Ok Frank;


Ok Lancer (whichever one you are);


Please explain, (CE bias can be as high as 3-4 volts under heavy load.

Isn't that set by the operating point set by bias you put on the base?


A bipolar transistor requires both a BE bias -and- a CE bias.


Ex: Class A, 6 volts for a 12 volt system.


For a Class A amp the DC bias on the base is set so the output is
centered in the linear portion of the curve (which is what I think you
were trying to illustrate with your example).


Or are you refering to the losses in the transistor when its fully
turned on?


Not necessarily. CE bias increases with collector current regardless
of saturation (and RF bipolars don't saturate easily). But if the
supply voltage can be increased while maintaining the same collector
current (by changing the BE bias), the loss due to CE bias is not
changed, and that loss is therefore made to be a smaller percentage of
the output power. IOW, the transistor is more efficient with a higher
supply voltage.