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Marine VHF Radio for Truck

rickman wrote:

So at this point it looks like the idea of getting a simple commercial
unit for the truck is not an option for this year (the paddle is two
weeks away). I will look into getting a ham license which I believe
would allow me to communicate with the paddlers. Also, as I have said,
I want to begin monitoring channel 16 at Lake Anna. But no point in
monitoring if I'm not allowed to respond. So maybe this will be an
option for next year...

As we have been saying, there is no problem with you monitoring in your
truck, but your state may have laws against using a scanner or other
receiver in a vehicle.

A good scanner and antenna at home would allow you to monitor them, and
a telephone list of emergency numbers would do you good. If someone is
in trouble, you could use your phone to call for help.

Note that a ham license only allows you to communicate with other hams
on ham frequencies. There is a provision in US law that allows you
to operate outside of the ham bands in an emergency, but it is very often
misunderstood, and you would be well advised to study it.

The law was intended for situations like the Titanic, where the ship was
going down, but unlike the Titanic, no one else was able to hear or
speak with them. I doubt that would ever occur on the Chesapeake.

If there is ANY other means of communication, e.g. a VHF radio, a cell phone,
etc, then it is still illegal for you to operate outside the ham bands.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379

Marine VHF Radio for Truck

On 9/3/2013 10:22 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 10:10 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/3/2013 3:24 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 3:05 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/3/2013 2:07 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 12:47 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/2/2013 1:11 AM, Fred McKenzie wrote:
In ,
wrote:

I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a
possibility
someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount
it at
my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring.
So I
expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and
brought
into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too.

Rick-

I am assuming you can manage the legal requirements for use of the
radio. As others mentioned, a license may be needed.

One question you must address, is what kind of range do you need to
cover? VHF radios are essentially line-of-sight. Due to the
curvature
of the earth, the "radio horizon" will limit your range.

You can estimate the distance in miles to the radio horizon, as the
square root of twice the altitude of your antenna in feet. For
example,
the antenna on the roof of your truck will be approximately five
feet
off the ground. The square root of ten is about 3.2, so your
horizon on
level ground will be about 3 miles away.

You can add the distance to the kayak's horizon to yours. So it
would
matter if the kayak is on a mountainous stream or on the open
ocean or
lake.

If vehicle mounting does not provide the range you need, a tall
antenna
may be required at the house. (Have you considered using cell
phones?)
ccc
Hi Fred, I appreciate the response.

I'm not sure there is a lot of value to calculating the line of sight
for the antenna mount. I don't have much choice in the mount other
than
having to make it lower because of some practical consideration like
hitting bridges... As to need, I want the max I can get of course.
The
other end of the link will all be handheld radios.

The kayaks will be on the Chesapeake Bay, but close to shore. So land
obstructions will be the limiting factor most of the time. At
least it
seemed that way on prior trips. But I don't have a lot of experience
with the hand held units we used so I'm not sure what I should have
expected.

The sort of issue I'm more interested in discussing are things like
what
type of antenna and how best to mount and connect it to the radio. Of
course, I'm interested in the radios if anyone here has experience
with
them. I see 25 Watt (which I'm assuming is the max available)
units at
the bottom end for just over $100 and others which seem to be
similar in
regards to the specs I understand for over $200 and of course the
prices
run upward too. Are there aspects I should look for that I need to
dig
deeper into the specs to find? For example is there some spec on the
internals of the receiver that would make a weakly received signal
more
clear than another radio? What about the speaker itself? Would it be
better to have an external speaker or is the internal speaker usually
ok?

I'm looking for advice from those who are experienced with marine
VHF.
Of course, I don't know what I don't know, so I'm looking for help
figuring out the questions.

Rick,

You've answered a couple of questions here. First of all, you are in
the
United States, so are governed by the FCC.

Marine radio licenses are not needed for the kayaks while on the
river,
but land stations (i.e. your truck) would do.

You could be considered a "Private Coastal Station". You would have to
"provide a service to vessels..." to get this license. I'm not sure if
the FCC would consider talking to your kayaks to be "a service to
vessels" - I guess it could be argued that it is.

Another option would be a "Marine Utility Station" - these
restricted to
handhelds with ten watts or less power. You still have to "provide a
service to vessels".

Another option would be the "General Mobile Radio Service". You don't
have to provide a service to vessels with this license, but it is
basically handhelds in the 1-5 watt range (and can have removable
antennas, so you could add an external antenna). You need a license
here, but family members can all operate under the same license
(individual licenses are not required).

Of course, every person operating a radio could get a ham license; you
would be much less restricted in your operation (power, frequencies,
etc.). You just can't use it for business - which it sounds like you
aren't. Each person would have to pass a test (not that hard and many
ham clubs around the country provide testing on a regular basis). Of
course, it gives you a lot of other options, also - like using a
repeater to extend the range of both the kayaks and your truck,
assuming
one is available (I don't know what's available around the Chesapeake
River area, but this area is loaded with repeaters).

I hope this helps you with some ideas.

Jerry, yes, this helps a lot. Once I was told I needed the license I
found the FCC site to be less than clear. I appreciate you laying out
the options. I would like to have a more powerful transmitter than the
handhelds have, so I think I will research the Private Coastal Station.
One of the licenses mentioned on the FCC page says you can fill in the
form online and you effectively are licensed as soon as you make the
application. I believe this was the "marine utility station license",
but I can't find that info at the moment.

Does a private costal station have to be stationary? Could I swap the
unit between house and vehicle? Or do I need two licenses?

OK, I did a little more looking into the FCC regs (Part 80 governs
Maritime use). The supplemental restrictions for a Private Coastal
Station are listed at
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx...1.78.1&idno=47.

It looks like you do not meet any of the requirements, so you would not
be eligible for such a license.

I might be able to justify "(8) A person servicing or supplying vessels
other than commercial transport vessels;" Worth a try. I do fiberglas
repair as well as maintenance of the mechanical parts on the kayaks that
have rudders or skegs. This is not a profession, but they seem to be
pushing for non-commercial use on this one.

I'm not sure you can justify it. You're doing it as a hobby, for your
club (or whatever), not as a commercial enterprise. The FCC seems to be
trying to limit the number of land licenses being issued.

But a amateur license might be the best bet. Does this require my to
learn a bunch of technical stuff? That shouldn't be a problem, in
theory I'm an EE, but I've done mostly digital work and I know RF is a
whole different animal. Can you point me in the right direction toward
getting an amateur license that would let me operate a marine radio on
land? Who knows, I might end up doing a bunch of other amateur radio
stuff... I know it can be an addictive hobby... lol

You'll need to learn some rules and regs, and some theory. But it's not
hard - the question pool is published; nowadays people just memorize the
pool from which the questions are taken.

But an Amateur Radio license allows you to operate Amateur Radios - no
marine or any others. That's why I say everyone in control of a radio
(including on the kayaks) would have to have a ham license (and call
sign). But we have lots of frequencies available and lots of options.

You can find more information at www.arrl.org.

Hmmm... maybe I don't understand the amateur license. The need is for
using marine band radios, not just any radios that can be found. That
is not going to change. Are you saying that an amateur license won't
allow the use of a marine band radio in the context I have been
describing?

I found a few links on the tests and they seem pretty simple. As yopu
say, there is a little memorization of regulations and some technical
stuff which isn't hard. I can't imagine I wouldn't be able to pass the
test this weekend. But it sounds like it would be of no use for this
purpose. It seems rather restrictive to me that anyone can have a
marine band radio in their boat and use it freely, but if you need to
contact your house or other shore location you need to use something
else. I'm sure talking between ships is useful, but in many cases the
need is between ship and shore. I'm just not allowed to use a marine
radio on shore... what?

--

Rick

Marine VHF Radio for Truck

On 9/4/2013 12:49 AM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
rickman wrote:

So at this point it looks like the idea of getting a simple commercial
unit for the truck is not an option for this year (the paddle is two
weeks away). I will look into getting a ham license which I believe
would allow me to communicate with the paddlers. Also, as I have said,
I want to begin monitoring channel 16 at Lake Anna. But no point in
monitoring if I'm not allowed to respond. So maybe this will be an
option for next year...

As we have been saying, there is no problem with you monitoring in your
truck, but your state may have laws against using a scanner or other
receiver in a vehicle.

A good scanner and antenna at home would allow you to monitor them, and
a telephone list of emergency numbers would do you good. If someone is
in trouble, you could use your phone to call for help.

Note that a ham license only allows you to communicate with other hams
on ham frequencies. There is a provision in US law that allows you
to operate outside of the ham bands in an emergency, but it is very often
misunderstood, and you would be well advised to study it.

The law was intended for situations like the Titanic, where the ship was
going down, but unlike the Titanic, no one else was able to hear or
speak with them. I doubt that would ever occur on the Chesapeake.

If there is ANY other means of communication, e.g. a VHF radio, a cell phone,
etc, then it is still illegal for you to operate outside the ham bands.

Is VHF outside of ham bands? I looked at the test data a little, but
didn't find that particular info. From the wording I found about the
licenses, I guess I thought ham use included the marine VHF band. There
seems to be concern about operating at frequencies below 30 MHz unless
you pass a tougher test.

It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on
their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is not
allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can
understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore communications,
but it only seems natural to use the same radio for ship to ship and
ship to shore comms.

--

Rick

Marine VHF Radio for Truck

On 9/5/2013 4:37 AM, rickman wrote:
On 9/4/2013 12:49 AM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
rickman wrote:

So at this point it looks like the idea of getting a simple commercial
unit for the truck is not an option for this year (the paddle is two
weeks away). I will look into getting a ham license which I believe
would allow me to communicate with the paddlers. Also, as I have said,
I want to begin monitoring channel 16 at Lake Anna. But no point in
monitoring if I'm not allowed to respond. So maybe this will be an
option for next year...

As we have been saying, there is no problem with you monitoring in your
truck, but your state may have laws against using a scanner or other
receiver in a vehicle.

A good scanner and antenna at home would allow you to monitor them, and
a telephone list of emergency numbers would do you good. If someone is
in trouble, you could use your phone to call for help.

Note that a ham license only allows you to communicate with other hams
on ham frequencies. There is a provision in US law that allows you
to operate outside of the ham bands in an emergency, but it is very often
misunderstood, and you would be well advised to study it.

The law was intended for situations like the Titanic, where the ship was
going down, but unlike the Titanic, no one else was able to hear or
speak with them. I doubt that would ever occur on the Chesapeake.

If there is ANY other means of communication, e.g. a VHF radio, a cell
phone,
etc, then it is still illegal for you to operate outside the ham bands.

Is VHF outside of ham bands? I looked at the test data a little, but
didn't find that particular info. From the wording I found about the
licenses, I guess I thought ham use included the marine VHF band. There
seems to be concern about operating at frequencies below 30 MHz unless
you pass a tougher test.

It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on
their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is not
allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can
understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore communications,
but it only seems natural to use the same radio for ship to ship and
ship to shore comms.

Hams have frequencies all over the place - including VHF, but a ham
license only allows you to use the ham bands. Other bands have other
license requirements.

And yes, the marine band licenses are very restrictive, but for a very
good reason - there are a limited number of channels available, and they
are meant for ship business. The FCC doesn't want everyone and their
brother to use it to chat with the family/friends back on shore; in
busier areas the channels would quickly become too crowded to be usable.
That's why it is limited to shore stations providing services to ships.

Maybe your best bet is to just use cell phones. I would think coverage
around Kent island should be OK.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

Marine VHF Radio for Truck

On 9/5/2013 4:33 AM, rickman wrote:
On 9/3/2013 10:22 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 10:10 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/3/2013 3:24 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 3:05 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/3/2013 2:07 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 12:47 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/2/2013 1:11 AM, Fred McKenzie wrote:
In ,
wrote:

I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a
possibility
someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount
it at
my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring.
So I
expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and
brought
into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too.

Rick-

I am assuming you can manage the legal requirements for use of the
radio. As others mentioned, a license may be needed.

One question you must address, is what kind of range do you need to
cover? VHF radios are essentially line-of-sight. Due to the
curvature
of the earth, the "radio horizon" will limit your range.

You can estimate the distance in miles to the radio horizon, as the
square root of twice the altitude of your antenna in feet. For
example,
the antenna on the roof of your truck will be approximately five
feet
off the ground. The square root of ten is about 3.2, so your
horizon on
level ground will be about 3 miles away.

You can add the distance to the kayak's horizon to yours. So it
would
matter if the kayak is on a mountainous stream or on the open
ocean or
lake.

If vehicle mounting does not provide the range you need, a tall
antenna
may be required at the house. (Have you considered using cell
phones?)
ccc
Hi Fred, I appreciate the response.

I'm not sure there is a lot of value to calculating the line of
sight
for the antenna mount. I don't have much choice in the mount other
than
having to make it lower because of some practical consideration like
hitting bridges... As to need, I want the max I can get of course.
The
other end of the link will all be handheld radios.

The kayaks will be on the Chesapeake Bay, but close to shore. So
land
obstructions will be the limiting factor most of the time. At
least it
seemed that way on prior trips. But I don't have a lot of experience
with the hand held units we used so I'm not sure what I should have
expected.

The sort of issue I'm more interested in discussing are things like
what
type of antenna and how best to mount and connect it to the
radio. Of
course, I'm interested in the radios if anyone here has experience
with
them. I see 25 Watt (which I'm assuming is the max available)
units at
the bottom end for just over $100 and others which seem to be
similar in
regards to the specs I understand for over $200 and of course the
prices
run upward too. Are there aspects I should look for that I need to
dig
deeper into the specs to find? For example is there some spec on the
internals of the receiver that would make a weakly received signal
more
clear than another radio? What about the speaker itself? Would it be
better to have an external speaker or is the internal speaker
usually
ok?

I'm looking for advice from those who are experienced with marine
VHF.
Of course, I don't know what I don't know, so I'm looking for help
figuring out the questions.

Rick,

You've answered a couple of questions here. First of all, you are in
the
United States, so are governed by the FCC.

Marine radio licenses are not needed for the kayaks while on the
river,
but land stations (i.e. your truck) would do.

You could be considered a "Private Coastal Station". You would
have to
"provide a service to vessels..." to get this license. I'm not
sure if
the FCC would consider talking to your kayaks to be "a service to
vessels" - I guess it could be argued that it is.

Another option would be a "Marine Utility Station" - these
restricted to
handhelds with ten watts or less power. You still have to "provide a
service to vessels".

Another option would be the "General Mobile Radio Service". You don't
have to provide a service to vessels with this license, but it is
basically handhelds in the 1-5 watt range (and can have removable
antennas, so you could add an external antenna). You need a license
here, but family members can all operate under the same license
(individual licenses are not required).

Of course, every person operating a radio could get a ham license;
you
would be much less restricted in your operation (power, frequencies,
etc.). You just can't use it for business - which it sounds like you
aren't. Each person would have to pass a test (not that hard and many
ham clubs around the country provide testing on a regular basis). Of
course, it gives you a lot of other options, also - like using a
repeater to extend the range of both the kayaks and your truck,
assuming
one is available (I don't know what's available around the Chesapeake
River area, but this area is loaded with repeaters).

I hope this helps you with some ideas.

Jerry, yes, this helps a lot. Once I was told I needed the license I
found the FCC site to be less than clear. I appreciate you laying out
the options. I would like to have a more powerful transmitter than the
handhelds have, so I think I will research the Private Coastal
Station.
One of the licenses mentioned on the FCC page says you can fill in the
form online and you effectively are licensed as soon as you make the
application. I believe this was the "marine utility station license",
but I can't find that info at the moment.

Does a private costal station have to be stationary? Could I swap the
unit between house and vehicle? Or do I need two licenses?

OK, I did a little more looking into the FCC regs (Part 80 governs
Maritime use). The supplemental restrictions for a Private Coastal
Station are listed at
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx...1.78.1&idno=47.

It looks like you do not meet any of the requirements, so you would not
be eligible for such a license.

I might be able to justify "(8) A person servicing or supplying vessels
other than commercial transport vessels;" Worth a try. I do fiberglas
repair as well as maintenance of the mechanical parts on the kayaks that
have rudders or skegs. This is not a profession, but they seem to be
pushing for non-commercial use on this one.

I'm not sure you can justify it. You're doing it as a hobby, for your
club (or whatever), not as a commercial enterprise. The FCC seems to be
trying to limit the number of land licenses being issued.

But a amateur license might be the best bet. Does this require my to
learn a bunch of technical stuff? That shouldn't be a problem, in
theory I'm an EE, but I've done mostly digital work and I know RF is a
whole different animal. Can you point me in the right direction toward
getting an amateur license that would let me operate a marine radio on
land? Who knows, I might end up doing a bunch of other amateur radio
stuff... I know it can be an addictive hobby... lol

You'll need to learn some rules and regs, and some theory. But it's not
hard - the question pool is published; nowadays people just memorize the
pool from which the questions are taken.

But an Amateur Radio license allows you to operate Amateur Radios - no
marine or any others. That's why I say everyone in control of a radio
(including on the kayaks) would have to have a ham license (and call
sign). But we have lots of frequencies available and lots of options.

You can find more information at www.arrl.org.

Hmmm... maybe I don't understand the amateur license. The need is for
using marine band radios, not just any radios that can be found. That
is not going to change. Are you saying that an amateur license won't
allow the use of a marine band radio in the context I have been describing?

No, it won't. And FCC rules will not allow you to use marine band
radios in the way you wish.

I found a few links on the tests and they seem pretty simple. As yopu
say, there is a little memorization of regulations and some technical
stuff which isn't hard. I can't imagine I wouldn't be able to pass the
test this weekend. But it sounds like it would be of no use for this
purpose. It seems rather restrictive to me that anyone can have a
marine band radio in their boat and use it freely, but if you need to
contact your house or other shore location you need to use something
else. I'm sure talking between ships is useful, but in many cases the
need is between ship and shore. I'm just not allowed to use a marine
radio on shore... what?

Unfortunately for you, them's the rules (see my other post).

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.

==================

Marine VHF Radio for Truck

On Thu, 05 Sep 2013 04:37:57 -0400, rickman wrote:

It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on
their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is not
allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can
understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore communications,
but it only seems natural to use the same radio for ship to ship and
ship to shore comms.

The National Marine Electronics Association document at
http://www.nmea.org/content/newsm/printnews.asp?a=27
may provide dome insights. Additionally the FCC document at
http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=operations&id=ship_stations
provides information about obtaining a marine utility station license in order
to operate a hand-held marine radio from land.

A hand-held radio may be well-suited for your needs. Much will depend upon what
sort of antenna is used.

Marine VHF Radio for Truck

Please understand that a "band" (such as VHF band) is a collective term for
a large range of frequencies. The FCC assigns different frequencies (or
ranges of frequencies) to different services. The VHF "band" terminology is
generally used for the 30 - 300 Mhz range. Within this range there are
frequencies assigned for amateurs, police, fire, marine, TV, commercial FM,
and so forth. In general, these assignments do not overlap. There are VHF
frequencies assigned for amateur use (such as 144-148 Mhz). There are
different "spot" frequencies or "channels" (as opposed to ranges) assigned
for marine usage, and so forth.

Marine users must have a "type approved" radio and it must be used on the
assigned frequencies (channels). Amateurs, in the general case, do not
require type-approved radios, but they must ensure that their radios operate
in the assigned amateur frequency ranges. An amateur could, in the general
case, operate a marine-type radio in an amateur frequency range but not vice
versa.

There is some informality about the terminology. The 144-148 Mhz amateur
allocation is usually named the 2-meter band. It is a VHF band. The
police/fire/etc frequencies in the 150-160 Mhz range are often collectively
known as "VHF". There are VHF television channels (although these are going
away in favor of UHF channels).

In marine use you might hear "VHF" as opposed to "HF" (or "SSB"). HF is
High Freuqency, generally considered to be anything in the 3 - 30 MHz range.
Generally, VHF is for local (more or less line of sight) communication and
HF is for much more distant communication. There are amateur frequency
ranges in HF, such as the "80-meter band, 3.5-3.0 MHz, or the 20-meter band
at 14-14.35 Mhz. There are a variety of marine assignments in the HF range.

Using VHF is generally simple if you are in the right distance range. You
simply press the button and talk. Using HF is considerably more complex due
the way HF radio waves interact with the ionosphere.

Amateur licenses and marine licenses are completely different animals and do
not overlap in any way.

Have you thought about CB? It is inexpensive and might cover the distance
ranges you are talking about. One problem is that there are some very odd
animals that play with CB and can occupy some of the 40 available channels.
However, in less dense areas you can probably productively use one of the
higher channel numbers. The CB "band" has 40 channels around 27 MHz. This
is still "HF" but is almost "VHF". On most days, the communication is
somehwat more than line of sight -- generally more than VHF--, but not large
distances. However, when the "band" is "open" there can be international
communication and considerable interference.

Bill
W2WO

Marine VHF Radio for Truck

On Thu, 5 Sep 2013, rickman wrote:

But an Amateur Radio license allows you to operate Amateur Radios - no
marine or any others. That's why I say everyone in control of a radio
(including on the kayaks) would have to have a ham license (and call
sign). But we have lots of frequencies available and lots of options.

You can find more information at www.arrl.org.

Hmmm... maybe I don't understand the amateur license. The need is for using
marine band radios, not just any radios that can be found. That is not going
to change. Are you saying that an amateur license won't allow the use of a
marine band radio in the context I have been describing?

You're the one who started this by posting to an amateur radio newsgroup,
and then made it worse by adding other newsgroups in the
rec.radio.amateur.* hierarchy.

YOu say you are having problems getting licensed for the Marine band, so
people are offering information on other services that would be simply.
Amateur radio isn't "simpler" but for some uses the fact that it is
relatively wide open means it can be valuable. FRS and CB don't require
any licensing, cellphones are common nowadays, GMRS and MURS have
relatively simple license requirements.

If you "need" to stick with the Marine Band, then you need to offer up
reasons why.

Michael