In article , says...
- Restricting to ham-band-only probably doesn't buy you all that
much in savings or performance, these days, due to the large
number of bands. In order to gain big savings, I suspect you'd
have to limit yourself to a monoband radio.

Restricting to ham bands only buys a HUGE difference
in performance. Check out the Elecraft K2 and see
what kind of strong signal handling performance you
can get from an inexpensive radio if you have single
conversion right to the high-selectivity crystal
filter.

Third order IMD performance at 2 kHz is more than 10 dB
better than many of the expensive radios with general
coverage receivers, such as the FT-1000D and FT-1000MP
series, and is approximately equal to the 10 kilobuck
IC-7800! All because of the ham-band-only design and
some careful attention to design.

73,
Bob
K3PH

--
+----------------------------------------------+
| Bob Schreibmaier K3PH | E-mail: |
| Kresgeville, PA 18333 | http://www.dxis.org |
+----------------------------------------------+

In article ,
Bob Schreibmaier wrote:

In article , says...
- Restricting to ham-band-only probably doesn't buy you all that
much in savings or performance, these days, due to the large
number of bands. In order to gain big savings, I suspect you'd
have to limit yourself to a monoband radio.

Restricting to ham bands only buys a HUGE difference
in performance. Check out the Elecraft K2 and see
what kind of strong signal handling performance you
can get from an inexpensive radio if you have single
conversion right to the high-selectivity crystal
filter.

Third order IMD performance at 2 kHz is more than 10 dB
better than many of the expensive radios with general
coverage receivers, such as the FT-1000D and FT-1000MP
series, and is approximately equal to the 10 kilobuck
IC-7800! All because of the ham-band-only design and
some careful attention to design.

You're quite right, of course. I overstated my argument.

I think it's probably fair to say, though, that the sort of advantages
that the K2 family (and similar radios) gain in performance by
eschewing general coverage, might be very difficult or impossible to
achieve at the price-point that the original poster was hoping for. A
lot of the K2's improved IMD performance appears to come from having
band-specific double-tuned bandpass filters in the front end, switched
in via relays. This seems to be a technically excellent approach, but
I can't believe that it "comes cheap". Reed relays seem to run a
dollar or more each, in large quantities.

PIN diode switching of bandpass filters is another possible approach,
but I don't think you'd get the same sort of performance out of it.

At a sub-$200 retail price (which probably works out to under $50
bill-of-materials cost) the designer is going to have to make some
pretty hard decisions about where the money is to be spent. The
additional performance available from a band-optimized design (e.g.
the K2) might not be "in the budget" at the lower price point.

Consider that the K2 is between three and six times the price that the
OP was looking for... and it's a kit, has only 15 watts of output,
doesn't include a power supply, and I don't think it includes a
microphone either.

There would be some very, very interesting tradeoffs and design
decisions to be made, in any project to develop a sub-$200
mass-market-acceptable SSB HF rig. Possibilities:

- Run the finals on 24 volts, so that acceptably-linear operation could
be achieved from cheap power MOSFET parts?

- Use some of the new hybrid FPGA/DSP/microcontroller chips, to put
all of the control logic, audio filtering, etc. on a single chip?

- Limited duty cycle, to reduce the need for heavy/expensive heatsinks
and fan cooling?

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

"Dave Platt" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Bob Schreibmaier wrote:

In article ,
says...
- Restricting to ham-band-only probably doesn't buy you all that
much in savings or performance, these days, due to the large
number of bands. In order to gain big savings, I suspect you'd
have to limit yourself to a monoband radio.

Restricting to ham bands only buys a HUGE difference
in performance. Check out the Elecraft K2 and see
what kind of strong signal handling performance you
can get from an inexpensive radio if you have single
conversion right to the high-selectivity crystal
filter.

Third order IMD performance at 2 kHz is more than 10 dB
better than many of the expensive radios with general
coverage receivers, such as the FT-1000D and FT-1000MP
series, and is approximately equal to the 10 kilobuck
IC-7800! All because of the ham-band-only design and
some careful attention to design.

You're quite right, of course. I overstated my argument.

I think it's probably fair to say, though, that the sort of advantages
that the K2 family (and similar radios) gain in performance by
eschewing general coverage, might be very difficult or impossible to
achieve at the price-point that the original poster was hoping for. A
lot of the K2's improved IMD performance appears to come from having
band-specific double-tuned bandpass filters in the front end, switched
in via relays. This seems to be a technically excellent approach, but
I can't believe that it "comes cheap". Reed relays seem to run a
dollar or more each, in large quantities.

PIN diode switching of bandpass filters is another possible approach,
but I don't think you'd get the same sort of performance out of it.

At a sub-$200 retail price (which probably works out to under $50
bill-of-materials cost) the designer is going to have to make some
pretty hard decisions about where the money is to be spent. The
additional performance available from a band-optimized design (e.g.
the K2) might not be "in the budget" at the lower price point.

Consider that the K2 is between three and six times the price that the
OP was looking for... and it's a kit, has only 15 watts of output,
doesn't include a power supply, and I don't think it includes a
microphone either.

There would be some very, very interesting tradeoffs and design
decisions to be made, in any project to develop a sub-$200
mass-market-acceptable SSB HF rig. Possibilities:

- Run the finals on 24 volts, so that acceptably-linear operation could
be achieved from cheap power MOSFET parts?

- Use some of the new hybrid FPGA/DSP/microcontroller chips, to put
all of the control logic, audio filtering, etc. on a single chip?

- Limited duty cycle, to reduce the need for heavy/expensive heatsinks
and fan cooling?

Even if its sub-$500, that would still be a blessing for a young ham thats
trying to raise a family. e-bay is ok if you don't mind taking the chance
that the radio will be DOA when you get it, and not all clubs have the
resources to be able to set up a new ham with a "loaner rig" to get them on
the air. Something basic that will get them on the air without breaking the
bank would go a long way in being able to promote the hobby with young
people.

Well few of us start off with a new car
So for the dollar impaired how about
TS-520 - $180 with shipping has power supply
E-Bay completed

Another TS-520 with MC-50 mic -- $275
E-Bay Buy It now

Lots of old rigs for under $500

I think the things that holds up youth from becoming Hams or getting on HF
is really
1. The code (weak excuse)
2, The internet (talk anywhere)
3. The magic of radio was 20 - 30+ years ago - not today
4. The test as compared to CB, FRS

--
CL -- I doubt, therefore I might be !






"Noon-Air" wrote in message
...

"Dave Platt" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Bob Schreibmaier wrote:

In article ,
says...
- Restricting to ham-band-only probably doesn't buy you all that
much in savings or performance, these days, due to the large
number of bands. In order to gain big savings, I suspect you'd
have to limit yourself to a monoband radio.

Restricting to ham bands only buys a HUGE difference
in performance. Check out the Elecraft K2 and see
what kind of strong signal handling performance you
can get from an inexpensive radio if you have single
conversion right to the high-selectivity crystal
filter.

Third order IMD performance at 2 kHz is more than 10 dB
better than many of the expensive radios with general
coverage receivers, such as the FT-1000D and FT-1000MP
series, and is approximately equal to the 10 kilobuck
IC-7800! All because of the ham-band-only design and
some careful attention to design.

You're quite right, of course. I overstated my argument.

I think it's probably fair to say, though, that the sort of advantages
that the K2 family (and similar radios) gain in performance by
eschewing general coverage, might be very difficult or impossible to
achieve at the price-point that the original poster was hoping for. A
lot of the K2's improved IMD performance appears to come from having
band-specific double-tuned bandpass filters in the front end, switched
in via relays. This seems to be a technically excellent approach, but
I can't believe that it "comes cheap". Reed relays seem to run a
dollar or more each, in large quantities.

PIN diode switching of bandpass filters is another possible approach,
but I don't think you'd get the same sort of performance out of it.

At a sub-$200 retail price (which probably works out to under $50
bill-of-materials cost) the designer is going to have to make some
pretty hard decisions about where the money is to be spent. The
additional performance available from a band-optimized design (e.g.
the K2) might not be "in the budget" at the lower price point.

Consider that the K2 is between three and six times the price that the
OP was looking for... and it's a kit, has only 15 watts of output,
doesn't include a power supply, and I don't think it includes a
microphone either.

There would be some very, very interesting tradeoffs and design
decisions to be made, in any project to develop a sub-$200
mass-market-acceptable SSB HF rig. Possibilities:

- Run the finals on 24 volts, so that acceptably-linear operation could
be achieved from cheap power MOSFET parts?

- Use some of the new hybrid FPGA/DSP/microcontroller chips, to put
all of the control logic, audio filtering, etc. on a single chip?

- Limited duty cycle, to reduce the need for heavy/expensive heatsinks
and fan cooling?

Even if its sub-$500, that would still be a blessing for a young ham thats
trying to raise a family. e-bay is ok if you don't mind taking the chance
that the radio will be DOA when you get it, and not all clubs have the
resources to be able to set up a new ham with a "loaner rig" to get them
on the air. Something basic that will get them on the air without breaking
the bank would go a long way in being able to promote the hobby with young
people.

Noon-Air wrote:
"Caveat Lector" wrote in message
news:8xFPf.2411$Uc2.454@fed1read04...

Whatever happenet to a simple to operate 100watt HF rig that transmits
and
recieves??... something in the way of an inexpensive, baseline, HAM band
*only* rig... maybe along the lines of the re-production of the TS-130S.

-n6ojn


With the advent of microprocessor based Ham rigs- many more features and
wide band (HF, 6M, 2M, 440 and SWL) coverage is easily obtainable at
about the same price as a new TS-130S (about $700 new 1980's). See ICOM
706 Mark II G. The "G" is an all-mode transceiver provides 100 watts on HF
and 6 meters and 50 watts on 2 meters plus 20 watts on 440 MHz. It
receives from 30 kHz to 199 MHz and from 400 to 470 MHz. For $899

In the 1980's you would have paid twice that for separate radios to cover
those bands all mode

Lots bang for the buck

As far as complexity -- most have a menu presets -- choose your options
and will operate much the same way as a TS-130S


You completely missed the point..... A *simple to operate* 100 watt HF rig,
NOT microprocessor based, HAM BANDS ONLY...
What was $700 over 25 years ago, should be able to be produced today for
just a hundred bucks or so. When the latest electronic toys come out, they
command a premium price, and after a couple of years, the price goes down to
where a working stiff can afford them.


"I feel your pain." Seriously, you have a great point. I am now
studying to re-acquire my General license (I'm 50). Yes, things have
changed quite a bit since my days with a reasonably priced HW-101.

But, I think QRP is where some neat high quality stuff is available,
especially in kit form. It's also a great way to start into ham radio.

Regarding CW as a barrier to many new hams, I don't know. The "old
school" approach is part of what I like about amateur radio. Nostalgia
is not worthless. I hope we don't lose CW.

Nostalgia is attractive in other areas. Audiophiles have returned to
tube amps for many years now. Some of the units are set up so the owner
can enjoy the tubes' cool purple-blue glow varying with the music.
Baseball is largely nostalgic. I'm sure there are other examples.

I guess my point is that amateur radio shouldn't try to compete with
internet, or whatever. It has a sort of historical niche...it can be
pretty cutting edge and nostalgic at the same time.

I would recommend QRP as the best entry into ham radio.

john

John wrote
"I feel your pain." Seriously, you have a great point. I am now studying
to re-acquire my General license (I'm 50). Yes, things have changed quite
a bit since my days with a reasonably priced HW-101.


john

In 1980 the HW-101 sold, in kit form, for $399.95 in the fall 1980 Heathkit
catalog, with the optional CW filter adding another $44.95.

See URL: http://www.elinkusa.com/hw-101/HISTORY.htm

Using an inflation rate of 3.5 %; $400 in 1980 is $978 today -- the cost
of a IC 706 MK 2
And the ICOM is Factory assembled, all mode, and covers HF and 6 meters
(100Watts) and 50 watts on 2 meters plus 20 watts on 440 MHz. It receives
from 30 kHz to 199 MHz and from 400 to 470 MHz.

--
CL -- I doubt, therefore I might be !

"Caveat Lector" wrote in message
news:8%9Qf.42390$V27.10284@fed1read06...
John wrote
"I feel your pain." Seriously, you have a great point. I am now
studying to re-acquire my General license (I'm 50). Yes, things have
changed quite a bit since my days with a reasonably priced HW-101.


john

In 1980 the HW-101 sold, in kit form, for $399.95 in the fall 1980
Heathkit catalog, with the optional CW filter adding another $44.95.

See URL: http://www.elinkusa.com/hw-101/HISTORY.htm

Using an inflation rate of 3.5 %; $400 in 1980 is $978 today -- the
cost of a IC 706 MK 2
And the ICOM is Factory assembled, all mode, and covers HF and 6 meters
(100Watts) and 50 watts on 2 meters plus 20 watts on 440 MHz. It receives
from 30 kHz to 199 MHz and from 400 to 470 MHz.

So what rig did you start out with?? How many years have you been licensed??

Golly John straining the old brain cells.

First rig was a used (15 year old) Hallicrafters SR-160 - paid $100 for it
in 1977 when I first got licensed
Needed repair and new finals. Power supply needed recapped.

But my very first "rig" was a homebrew crystal set - 1947 (Oatmeal Box and
all (;-))
Then a Knight kit OceanHopper - 1948
Next was a Hallicrafters S-40B
Then a Halli S-38
And the US Navy let me use (;-) an ART-13 and ARR-15 (Collins Gear) to send
and receive Morse code on Pacific flights
Next was a Knight R-100

Heathkits I built were a Heath Linear SB-230, SA-2060A Antenna Tuner, Heath
Color TV set (took months to build), as well as the usual VTVM,
Oscilloscope, Signal generator, etc

Should have kept them all (;-)
--
CL -- I doubt, therefore I might be !

"Noon-Air" wrote in message
...

"Caveat Lector" wrote in message
news:8%9Qf.42390$V27.10284@fed1read06...
John wrote
"I feel your pain." Seriously, you have a great point. I am now
studying to re-acquire my General license (I'm 50). Yes, things have
changed quite a bit since my days with a reasonably priced HW-101.


john

In 1980 the HW-101 sold, in kit form, for $399.95 in the fall 1980
Heathkit catalog, with the optional CW filter adding another $44.95.

See URL: http://www.elinkusa.com/hw-101/HISTORY.htm

Using an inflation rate of 3.5 %; $400 in 1980 is $978 today -- the
cost of a IC 706 MK 2
And the ICOM is Factory assembled, all mode, and covers HF and 6 meters
(100Watts) and 50 watts on 2 meters plus 20 watts on 440 MHz. It receives
from 30 kHz to 199 MHz and from 400 to 470 MHz.

So what rig did you start out with?? How many years have you been
licensed??

On Tue, 7 Mar 2006 22:03:51 -0600, "Noon-Air"
wrote:

Whatever happenet to a simple to operate 100watt HF rig that transmits and
recieves??... something in the way of an inexpensive, baseline, HAM band
*only* rig... maybe along the lines of the re-production of the TS-130S.

-n6ojn

There's the Yaesu 840 and the Icom 718, about $600, and the starter
Alinco, forget it's model #, about $700. Even the yahoo-whistles Yeasu
857d is only $689 nowadays.

bob
k5qwg


"Hamguy" wrote in message
.. .
It's going to be a model that has 'D-Star' capability, like some of the
Icoms do.


"ml" wrote in message
...
i heard there might be a new kenwood rig out soon prob unv at dayton

anyone have any skuttlebut on it or any links ?

tnx

On 03/07/06 11:03 pm Noon-Air wrote:

Whatever happenet to a simple to operate 100watt HF rig that transmits and
recieves??... something in the way of an inexpensive, baseline, HAM band
*only* rig... maybe along the lines of the re-production of the TS-130S.

Maybe there's not enough demand for such a thing. Moreover, the
threshold gets raised for so many varieties of technogadget. If we take
a possible parallel from the world of computers, a 6MHz PC-AT clone with
1MB of RAM and a 20MB hd should now cost perhaps US$25 and might well
suit the computing needs of a lot of people (as long as they didn't
insist on trying to run any version of Windozzzze on it). But, as
somebody wrote a few years back, "The computer I want always costs
$2000": the bar keeps rising.

"Perce"
(aka Alan NV8A)