Dee Flint wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Dee Flint wrote:
"Chris" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 20:14:03 -0400, Dee Flint
wrote:

... Only the finest operators can send code well enough with a hand
key
that a computer can copy it anyway. Only exceptionally good operators
can
send well enough with a bug that a computer can copy it. Only very
good
operators can send well enough with paddles that computers can copy
it.
Basically a computer is good at copying computer generated code.

That may have been true in the 80's, back when people were just
getting started on the problem of copying CW with a personal computer,
but the algorithms have improved greatly since then, and they are now
quite good at copying manually generated Morse code. Even the area
where humans excelled - copying CW in the presence of QRM and QRN - is
now handled quite well by most modern algorithms. Currently, the most
popular program seems to be CwGet - a Windows program which Breakin
Magazine rates very highly. With gigahertz microprocessors and
built-in A/D converters, the modern PC is more than up to the task of
dealing with computations that were once only practical on mainframes.

I've tried CWGet and it doesn't copy the signals that I want to copy. It
still is subject to problems with QRN, QRM, QSB, and less than perfect
fists. It can't copy any of the signals distorted by aurora. So while
it
is the best of the available programs, it still falls far short of a good
human operator. And I'm speaking from experience with the program. It's
not up to the task that I want it to do.

You can sit and struggle with trying to train yourself to receive 20
wpm Morse, or you can download and install CwGet and start copying the
high speed CW nets immediately. There's no longer any real need for a
human to be in the decoding loop, a sure sign of just how
anachronistic human-decoded CW really is. Samuel Morse originally
designed his code to be copied by machine, so in reality we're only
catching up with what he intended to do way back in the 1800's.

Already tried it.

And dismissed it.

As I said while it is the best that is available, it
is
still far below the capabilities of a human operator.

Correction. ...a few human operators.

I've tried it
under a
wide range of conditions and CWGet still needs a pretty good signal to
function.

Dee, N8UZE

Morse Myth #119: All CW signals are good signals (Its the corollary of
Morse Myth #1: CW always gets through).


Unrelated to my comments.

You would like to think that, but without efforts from folks like Carl,
Bill, Len, hans, myself and others, you would still be repeating such
myths, and would never make statements such as "Not all CW signals are
good."

You can thank us, but that's probably not very likely.

No one has said all CW signals are good.

And they aren't.

If they were always good, CWGet
would always work, which it doesn't. The ones who tout the software
solution are those who wish that it would always work.

And those who dismiss the software solution think all amateur operators
are superb morsemen.

In addition, I have repeatedly stated that each and every mode has its
advantages and disadvantages.

If you were to compare and contrast all existing modes, it think it is
likely that you would claim that CW is the best mode.

The extremists on each side don't want to
hear that.

Dee, N8UZE

Because of the efforts made to dismiss countless Morse Myths over the
years, you were just now able to state that not all CW signals are good
without 1x2 PCTAs pooh poohing such talk.

wrote:
Dee Flint wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Dee Flint wrote:
"Chris" wrote in message

Already tried it.

And dismissed it.
esp dimissing the abilty of the human operator of the machine to fill
in the problems and correct the process

As I said while it is the best that is available, it
is
still far below the capabilities of a human operator.

Correction. ...a few human operators.

indeed the PC alone far exceeds the abilties of many licensed ham
operators but hat doesn't count

I've tried it
under a
wide range of conditions and CWGet still needs a pretty good signal to
function.

Dee, N8UZE

Morse Myth #119: All CW signals are good signals (Its the corollary of
Morse Myth #1: CW always gets through).


Unrelated to my comments.

You would like to think that, but without efforts from folks like Carl,
Bill, Len, hans, myself and others, you would still be repeating such
myths, and would never make statements such as "Not all CW signals are
good."

You can thank us, but that's probably not very likely.

No one has said all CW signals are good.

And they aren't.

If they were always good, CWGet
would always work, which it doesn't. The ones who tout the software
solution are those who wish that it would always work.

And those who dismiss the software solution think all amateur operators
are superb morsemen.

In addition, I have repeatedly stated that each and every mode has its
advantages and disadvantages.

If you were to compare and contrast all existing modes, it think it is
likely that you would claim that CW is the best mode.

The extremists on each side don't want to
hear that.

Dee, N8UZE

Because of the efforts made to dismiss countless Morse Myths over the
years, you were just now able to state that not all CW signals are good
without 1x2 PCTAs pooh poohing such talk.

well it is a thankless job

an_old_friend wrote:
wrote:
Dee Flint wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Dee Flint wrote:
"Chris" wrote in message

Already tried it.

And dismissed it.
esp dimissing the abilty of the human operator of the machine to fill
in the problems and correct the process

As I said while it is the best that is available, it
is
still far below the capabilities of a human operator.

Correction. ...a few human operators.

indeed the PC alone far exceeds the abilties of many licensed ham
operators but hat doesn't count

I've tried it
under a
wide range of conditions and CWGet still needs a pretty good signal to
function.

Dee, N8UZE

Morse Myth #119: All CW signals are good signals (Its the corollary of
Morse Myth #1: CW always gets through).


Unrelated to my comments.

You would like to think that, but without efforts from folks like Carl,
Bill, Len, hans, myself and others, you would still be repeating such
myths, and would never make statements such as "Not all CW signals are
good."

You can thank us, but that's probably not very likely.

No one has said all CW signals are good.

And they aren't.

If they were always good, CWGet
would always work, which it doesn't. The ones who tout the software
solution are those who wish that it would always work.

And those who dismiss the software solution think all amateur operators
are superb morsemen.

In addition, I have repeatedly stated that each and every mode has its
advantages and disadvantages.

If you were to compare and contrast all existing modes, it think it is
likely that you would claim that CW is the best mode.

The extremists on each side don't want to
hear that.

Dee, N8UZE

Because of the efforts made to dismiss countless Morse Myths over the
years, you were just now able to state that not all CW signals are good
without 1x2 PCTAs pooh poohing such talk.

well it is a thankless job

Dees coming around in her own way, but the brainwashing that she's
undergone is strong. Perhaps in another decade... if there's still an
amateur radio. If only she had been able to think spontaneously and
resist, the brainwashing wouldn't have been so well received.

wrote in message
ups.com...

Dee Flint wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Dee Flint wrote:
"Chris" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 20:14:03 -0400, Dee Flint

wrote:

... Only the finest operators can send code well enough with a
hand
key
that a computer can copy it anyway. Only exceptionally good
operators
can
send well enough with a bug that a computer can copy it. Only very
good
operators can send well enough with paddles that computers can copy
it.
Basically a computer is good at copying computer generated code.

That may have been true in the 80's, back when people were just
getting started on the problem of copying CW with a personal
computer,
but the algorithms have improved greatly since then, and they are
now
quite good at copying manually generated Morse code. Even the area
where humans excelled - copying CW in the presence of QRM and QRN -
is
now handled quite well by most modern algorithms. Currently, the
most
popular program seems to be CwGet - a Windows program which Breakin
Magazine rates very highly. With gigahertz microprocessors and
built-in A/D converters, the modern PC is more than up to the task
of
dealing with computations that were once only practical on
mainframes.

I've tried CWGet and it doesn't copy the signals that I want to copy.
It
still is subject to problems with QRN, QRM, QSB, and less than perfect
fists. It can't copy any of the signals distorted by aurora. So
while
it
is the best of the available programs, it still falls far short of a
good
human operator. And I'm speaking from experience with the program.
It's
not up to the task that I want it to do.

You can sit and struggle with trying to train yourself to receive 20
wpm Morse, or you can download and install CwGet and start copying
the
high speed CW nets immediately. There's no longer any real need for
a
human to be in the decoding loop, a sure sign of just how
anachronistic human-decoded CW really is. Samuel Morse originally
designed his code to be copied by machine, so in reality we're only
catching up with what he intended to do way back in the 1800's.

Already tried it.

And dismissed it.

Based on actually trying it. I did not form an opinion on it until I gave
it a thorough workout. And if the conditions are good enough and they are
going too fast for me, I'll use it to help out. But there's a lot of times
it simply doesn't do the job.


As I said while it is the best that is available, it
is
still far below the capabilities of a human operator.

Correction. ...a few human operators.

Correction: almost any operator who works code on a semi-regular basis. My
code skills are very modest. Typically I am comfortable at 13wpm to 15wpm.
Higher than that is a real strain. Still I often copy better than the
computer despite that.


I've tried it
under a
wide range of conditions and CWGet still needs a pretty good signal to
function.

Dee, N8UZE

Morse Myth #119: All CW signals are good signals (Its the corollary of
Morse Myth #1: CW always gets through).


Unrelated to my comments.

You would like to think that, but without efforts from folks like Carl,
Bill, Len, hans, myself and others, you would still be repeating such
myths, and would never make statements such as "Not all CW signals are
good."


No I would not be repeating that myth because I never, ever said that all CW
signals are good and never subscribed to that philosophy. If they were the
machines would always work and they don't. The other half of the coin is
that some of the anti-code types persist in the myth that "Code can always
be copied by computer". Neither myth is true.

I've always maintained that every mode has its advantages and disadvantages.
A good ham attempts to be conversant with those abilities. However the
extremists on both sides don't want to hear that.

You can thank us, but that's probably not very likely.


Nope because you are ascribing things to me that are not true. Nobody has
changed my opinions as stated in the above paragraphs. You make the mistake
of lumping everyone who favors code into one group. That is no more
accurate than lumping the anti-code people all in one group.

No one has said all CW signals are good.

And they aren't.

If they were always good, CWGet
would always work, which it doesn't. The ones who tout the software
solution are those who wish that it would always work.

And those who dismiss the software solution think all amateur operators
are superb morsemen.


I do not dismiss the software but am realistic to know that it is not the
panacea that some would like to believe. Sometimes it works and sometimes
it fails.

In addition, I have repeatedly stated that each and every mode has its
advantages and disadvantages.

If you were to compare and contrast all existing modes, it think it is
likely that you would claim that CW is the best mode.


Depends on the conditions. One can construct scenarios where whatever mode
they favor is the "best". Any one striving to be a knowledgeable ham should
be converstant with those scenarios. If you need an image, SST or fax are
far better modes than CW. The "best" mode depends on the purpose of the
communication and the conditions under which that communication must be
sent.

The extremists on each side don't want to
hear that.

Dee, N8UZE

Because of the efforts made to dismiss countless Morse Myths over the
years, you were just now able to state that not all CW signals are good
without 1x2 PCTAs pooh poohing such talk.


You are exaggerating. None have stated all CW signals are good. What they
have contended is that it is possible to copy a poor CW signal under
conditions where you could not copy other types of signals.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

wrote in
ps.com:


Slow Code wrote:

Improving your skills doesn't make you a better operator? Sheeesh.

Mike, skill. Singular. There is no skill test for any other mode.

You can still have your microphone, but you should have to pass a code
test before you're allowed to use it. I like 5 WPM for Tech, 13 for
General, and 20wpm for Extra, but then, I'm not lazy.

SC

You may not be lazy, but you're fully prepared to kill off amateur
radio with archaic requirements. I guess if you can't have the amateur
radio the way you want it, to hell with it all.


We have to dumb it down to keep it from dying?

SC

wrote in
oups.com:


Slow Code wrote:
wrote in

The late Dick Carrol/W0EX prided himself on being able to send code
so poorly that even a computer code reader couldn't copy him. This
was in order to prevent unworthy No-Code Technicians from
eavesdropping on him.

BTW, all the other Pro-Code Extras were good with it, coming up with
cool, old-timey sounding excuses for such bad behavoir. "Banana Boat
Swing" and "unique fist" were heard. A ham needn't try to produce CW
that meets the Morse Code specification for dots, dashes,
inter-dot/dash spacing, inter-character spacing, and inter-word
spacing.

I miss W0EX.

SC

In a way, so do I.

I wished he wouldn't get so upset and accept that he wasn't going to
change my mind.

At least a difference of opinion with Dick didn't make someone a liar.



He was pro-code but he wasn't trollish like me or WA8ULX were.

I believe in CW, but I'm not as Ruthless as I sound. I love to toss out
things and then listen to everyone gasp. ROFL. I know, I know, it's
sadistic...

but it's fun, and maybe some will see and figure out the point of it.

SC

" wrote in
oups.com:

From: on Sat, Oct 21 2006 4:01pm

wrote:
Dave Heil wrote:
wrote:
Dave Heil wrote:
wrote:
wrote:

according to him anyone not devoted to cw is a lowlfie
That's really sad.
...and pathetic. No one should have to go through life as a
lowlfie.

(extraneous groups deleted)

So who do you think Slow Code is? Kelly? Coslo? Deignan?

I haven't the slightest idea.

Well, I know "Slow Code" is not me.

Beyond that, he could be anybody with a computer and an internet
connection. "Slow Code" could be Len Anderson, who has used at least
seven different screen names here - that we know of.

How many screen names have you used here - that you know of?

Jimmie will NEVER admit to using any pseudonyms. :-)

Jimmie is a proud amateur "serving his country in other ways"
such as playing with his radio hobby, spreading "international
good will" by working DX on HF with CW. :-)

"Slow Code" could be Brian Burke, N0IMD,

Slow Code could be Jim/N2EY, despite protests that it isn't him.

Not in Miccolis' petty prissy manner of "always being correct."
[i.e., thinking as Miccolis thinks...all else is "wrong"]

Miccolis already tried at least one pseudonym. That pesudo
STOPPED when confronted. [that's in the Google archives]
But, but, but...Miccolis (who never swears) swears "it wasn't
him!" AS IF. :-)

Ditto
Robesin, Coslo, Bruce, Dan, Larry Roll, or anyone else who "appears" to
be absent from RRAP.

Maybe it is Val Germann, frustrated that he can't get his
(code speed) up? :-)

Could even be KH2D after starting the Alzheimer's route...who
knows?

Maybe it is Lamont Cranston? "Who knows what evil lurks in
the hearts of No-Coders?" :-)

who has used a wide variety of screen names
here, ("billy beeper", "hot ham and cheese", to name just a few)
usually without including his name or callsign.

I understand that Brian Burke has received a whole lot less spam email
on his regular user account than when he posted here under his name and
call. I also understand that he let go of "Billy Beeper" at Han's
Brakob's request, as "Billy Beeper" was an invention of Hans, a
fictitious boy who feared evil No-Coders.

There's lots of fictitious BOYS in here fearing evil No-Coders.

Most of them use pseudonyms. No guts. No courage. No brains.

They hide behind their BFO-enabled beeping, afraid to stray
beyond the anonymity of their monotonic dots and dashes...and
dreams of glory and honor via morsemanship..."serving their
country in 'other' ways." :-)




Wheeew! Thank god you expelled most of your gas in your last post you
didn't have a lot left over for this one.

No Len. Most RRAPers aren't pro-CW, but you think they're pro code
because they're willing to learn it for a license.

Larry, Dee and Me are the only pro 'Keep the code test' people in the
group anymore.

SC

wrote in message
oups.com...

an_old_friend wrote:
wrote:
Dee Flint wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Dee Flint wrote:
"Chris" wrote in message

Already tried it.

And dismissed it.
esp dimissing the abilty of the human operator of the machine to fill
in the problems and correct the process

As I said while it is the best that is available, it
is
still far below the capabilities of a human operator.

Correction. ...a few human operators.

indeed the PC alone far exceeds the abilties of many licensed ham
operators but hat doesn't count

I've tried it
under a
wide range of conditions and CWGet still needs a pretty good
signal to
function.

Dee, N8UZE

Morse Myth #119: All CW signals are good signals (Its the corollary
of
Morse Myth #1: CW always gets through).


Unrelated to my comments.

You would like to think that, but without efforts from folks like Carl,
Bill, Len, hans, myself and others, you would still be repeating such
myths, and would never make statements such as "Not all CW signals are
good."

You can thank us, but that's probably not very likely.

No one has said all CW signals are good.

And they aren't.

If they were always good, CWGet
would always work, which it doesn't. The ones who tout the software
solution are those who wish that it would always work.

And those who dismiss the software solution think all amateur operators
are superb morsemen.

In addition, I have repeatedly stated that each and every mode has
its
advantages and disadvantages.

If you were to compare and contrast all existing modes, it think it is
likely that you would claim that CW is the best mode.

The extremists on each side don't want to
hear that.

Dee, N8UZE

Because of the efforts made to dismiss countless Morse Myths over the
years, you were just now able to state that not all CW signals are good
without 1x2 PCTAs pooh poohing such talk.

well it is a thankless job

Dees coming around in her own way, but the brainwashing that she's
undergone is strong. Perhaps in another decade... if there's still an
amateur radio. If only she had been able to think spontaneously and
resist, the brainwashing wouldn't have been so well received.


You are mistaken. I've always been one to think spontaneously. Since I have
personally experienced conditions where it had to be CW or turn off the
radio, I advocate all hams knowing code at a basic level. To insure that
they do learn it at a basic level, testing at some point in the licensing is
appropriate. Before entering these news I'd never heard much discussion
either way on code. My opinions on its usefulness and desireability were
formed based entirely on actual operating experience. I was surprised to
learn that there was a big discussion on it in the amateur community.

I do NOT and never have believed in the arguments about "keeping out the
riffraff", maintaining tradition, or the "I had to so you should to".

It's basic knowledge, pure and simple. Most of the people I know don't use
any of the theory either but it is part of the basic knowledge set. I've
used ohm's law only a couple of times in the 14 years I've been licensed.
I've used the dipole equation half a dozen times. I've never used smith
charts. One could get by without the theory but having learned it, I can
choose where I want to focus my attention in amateur ration.



Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Slow Code wrote:
wrote in
ps.com:


Slow Code wrote:

Improving your skills doesn't make you a better operator? Sheeesh.

Mike, skill. Singular. There is no skill test for any other mode.

You can still have your microphone, but you should have to pass a code
test before you're allowed to use it. I like 5 WPM for Tech, 13 for
General, and 20wpm for Extra, but then, I'm not lazy.

SC

You may not be lazy, but you're fully prepared to kill off amateur
radio with archaic requirements. I guess if you can't have the amateur
radio the way you want it, to hell with it all.

We have to dumb it down to keep it from dying?

SC

We have to remove unnecessary and superfluous licensing requirements.

Slow Code wrote:

Larry, Dee and Me are the only pro 'Keep the code test' people in the
group anymore.

SC

Then the presentation of sound reasoning has been successful.