"LRod" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:15:24 -0700, "Caveat Lector"
wrote:

Ah phonetics

Sorry to tag on this post out of sequence.

The bottom line is communications. While it is true that by using a
*standard* alphabet one maximizes the probability of being understood,
in truth and in real practice, there are times when deviation may be
necessary.


I agree with that. There's been times when I've had to shift to some other
phonetic. But I always tried the standard first. Then if that failed, went
to one of the other frequently used phonetics such as "sugar" for "sierra".

First my qualifications: I was an air traffic controller for 30 years
and a pilot for some years before that, thus I have been intimately
familiar with the ICAO alphabet for nearly 40 years; using it on a
daily basis for most of that time. When everyone is on the same page
by official fiat, it is unusual to find the need for other than the
standard words.


That's the very reason for using the standard.

However, in all the years I was DXing (on the way to Honor Roll), I
found that my particular callsign (N9AKE at the time) had a couple of
shortcomings in real world, difficult conditions. The "K" spoken as
"kilo" was often and easily lost in QSB or QRN. However, whenever I
used "kilowatt" there was a almost always complete understanding by
the other party, and I was able to successfully conclude my QSO.


I have heard plenty of mixups on HF when kilowatt was used. Between talking
too fast and/or various foreign or dialectal accents and/or the fact that
there are plenty of older hams who may be somewhat hard of hearing, kilowatt
isn't a good choice as an alternate.

The key here, however, is that "kilowatt" is almost universally
understood by hams, being a part of the argot of the pasttime. I doubt
I would have had more than a 50% success rate had I tried it at work.

Similarly, it is unlikely that substitutions others might try would
have as good a success rate unless they, too, were related to amateur
radio. If one were to try to use xenophobic, for example, most hams
(or other people) would choke on the word itself, since few are likely
to have even heard of it.

The argument made by someone that "kilowatt" could be confused for
"kilo" "watt" is specious, since in real communications, the use of
"kilowatt" is clearly a single word. If one were to use "kilo" and
"watt" as phonetics for discrete letters, they would be spoken clearly
and separately, whereas "kilowatt" is spoken almost as one syllable.


See my comment above. Many people, for a variety of reasons, don't speak
clearly enough to make sure that there is a distinction.

Context and common sense are somewhat of a determinant in successful
communications using phonetics. That is one reason why many DXers are
very successful using America, Brazil, Canada, Denmark, England,
France, Guatemala, etc., as phonetics. Hardly a DXer exists who
doesn't immediately recognize those words.


Agreed. I'll use some of these if the standard isn't getting through but I
always try the standard first.

Finally we are not a commercial service, and public service aside, we
have no particular external requirement to get our communications
completed. There is no "officially sanctioned" alphabet that we are
required to use. Although, my skin crawls when I hear Bob say, "Broken
Old Bottle," the fact remains he is perfectly legal in doing so. In
amateur radio, success in communications is the only motive. If
"Boston London" (remember him?) gets it done regularly and reliably,
it's a good combination. If you don't want to have think one up, stick
with the ICAO (NATO) alphabet. For the vast majority of cases it's a
proven winner.



And that's why it should be used first and a switch made when necessary.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

The ATC thing reminds me of a problem that my dad and I had when we flew
a Cessna 172, whose tail number was N466SR. Whenever we'd say "November
4 6 6 Sierra Romeo", there was a 50-50 chance that ground would reply to
"zero romeo" (our 'sierra' sounded like 'zero'). Whenever we used
"sugar romeo" as the phonetic, they always got it first time.

LRod wrote:

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:15:24 -0700, "Caveat Lector"
wrote:


Ah phonetics


Sorry to tag on this post out of sequence.

The bottom line is communications. While it is true that by using a
*standard* alphabet one maximizes the probability of being understood,
in truth and in real practice, there are times when deviation may be
necessary.

First my qualifications: I was an air traffic controller for 30 years
and a pilot for some years before that, thus I have been intimately
familiar with the ICAO alphabet for nearly 40 years; using it on a
daily basis for most of that time. When everyone is on the same page
by official fiat, it is unusual to find the need for other than the
standard words.

However, in all the years I was DXing (on the way to Honor Roll), I
found that my particular callsign (N9AKE at the time) had a couple of
shortcomings in real world, difficult conditions. The "K" spoken as
"kilo" was often and easily lost in QSB or QRN. However, whenever I
used "kilowatt" there was a almost always complete understanding by
the other party, and I was able to successfully conclude my QSO.

The key here, however, is that "kilowatt" is almost universally
understood by hams, being a part of the argot of the pasttime. I doubt
I would have had more than a 50% success rate had I tried it at work.

Similarly, it is unlikely that substitutions others might try would
have as good a success rate unless they, too, were related to amateur
radio. If one were to try to use xenophobic, for example, most hams
(or other people) would choke on the word itself, since few are likely
to have even heard of it.

The argument made by someone that "kilowatt" could be confused for
"kilo" "watt" is specious, since in real communications, the use of
"kilowatt" is clearly a single word. If one were to use "kilo" and
"watt" as phonetics for discrete letters, they would be spoken clearly
and separately, whereas "kilowatt" is spoken almost as one syllable.

Context and common sense are somewhat of a determinant in successful
communications using phonetics. That is one reason why many DXers are
very successful using America, Brazil, Canada, Denmark, England,
France, Guatemala, etc., as phonetics. Hardly a DXer exists who
doesn't immediately recognize those words.

Finally we are not a commercial service, and public service aside, we
have no particular external requirement to get our communications
completed. There is no "officially sanctioned" alphabet that we are
required to use. Although, my skin crawls when I hear Bob say, "Broken
Old Bottle," the fact remains he is perfectly legal in doing so. In
amateur radio, success in communications is the only motive. If
"Boston London" (remember him?) gets it done regularly and reliably,
it's a good combination. If you don't want to have think one up, stick
with the ICAO (NATO) alphabet. For the vast majority of cases it's a
proven winner.


LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

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This file is PureMail protected. To reply to the sender,
you MUST include this in the subject line:

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message will be deleted, unread)

The ATC thing reminds me of a problem that my dad and I had when we flew
a Cessna 172, whose tail number was N466SR. Whenever we'd say "November
4 6 6 Sierra Romeo", there was a 50-50 chance that ground would reply to
"zero romeo" (our 'sierra' sounded like 'zero'). Whenever we used
"sugar romeo" as the phonetic, they always got it first time.

LRod wrote:

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:15:24 -0700, "Caveat Lector"
wrote:


Ah phonetics


Sorry to tag on this post out of sequence.

The bottom line is communications. While it is true that by using a
*standard* alphabet one maximizes the probability of being understood,
in truth and in real practice, there are times when deviation may be
necessary.

First my qualifications: I was an air traffic controller for 30 years
and a pilot for some years before that, thus I have been intimately
familiar with the ICAO alphabet for nearly 40 years; using it on a
daily basis for most of that time. When everyone is on the same page
by official fiat, it is unusual to find the need for other than the
standard words.

However, in all the years I was DXing (on the way to Honor Roll), I
found that my particular callsign (N9AKE at the time) had a couple of
shortcomings in real world, difficult conditions. The "K" spoken as
"kilo" was often and easily lost in QSB or QRN. However, whenever I
used "kilowatt" there was a almost always complete understanding by
the other party, and I was able to successfully conclude my QSO.

The key here, however, is that "kilowatt" is almost universally
understood by hams, being a part of the argot of the pasttime. I doubt
I would have had more than a 50% success rate had I tried it at work.

Similarly, it is unlikely that substitutions others might try would
have as good a success rate unless they, too, were related to amateur
radio. If one were to try to use xenophobic, for example, most hams
(or other people) would choke on the word itself, since few are likely
to have even heard of it.

The argument made by someone that "kilowatt" could be confused for
"kilo" "watt" is specious, since in real communications, the use of
"kilowatt" is clearly a single word. If one were to use "kilo" and
"watt" as phonetics for discrete letters, they would be spoken clearly
and separately, whereas "kilowatt" is spoken almost as one syllable.

Context and common sense are somewhat of a determinant in successful
communications using phonetics. That is one reason why many DXers are
very successful using America, Brazil, Canada, Denmark, England,
France, Guatemala, etc., as phonetics. Hardly a DXer exists who
doesn't immediately recognize those words.

Finally we are not a commercial service, and public service aside, we
have no particular external requirement to get our communications
completed. There is no "officially sanctioned" alphabet that we are
required to use. Although, my skin crawls when I hear Bob say, "Broken
Old Bottle," the fact remains he is perfectly legal in doing so. In
amateur radio, success in communications is the only motive. If
"Boston London" (remember him?) gets it done regularly and reliably,
it's a good combination. If you don't want to have think one up, stick
with the ICAO (NATO) alphabet. For the vast majority of cases it's a
proven winner.


LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

--
This file is PureMail protected. To reply to the sender,
you MUST include this in the subject line:

YKXWBSX7I6 01/03/2004

(without that string in the subject, your
message will be deleted, unread)

"LRod" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:15:24 -0700, "Caveat Lector"
wrote:

Ah phonetics

Sorry to tag on this post out of sequence.

The bottom line is communications. While it is true that by using a
*standard* alphabet one maximizes the probability of being understood,
in truth and in real practice, there are times when deviation may be
necessary.

First my qualifications: I was an air traffic controller for 30 years
and a pilot for some years before that, thus I have been intimately
familiar with the ICAO alphabet for nearly 40 years; using it on a
daily basis for most of that time. When everyone is on the same page
by official fiat, it is unusual to find the need for other than the
standard words.

However, in all the years I was DXing (on the way to Honor Roll), I
found that my particular callsign (N9AKE at the time) had a couple of
shortcomings in real world, difficult conditions. The "K" spoken as
"kilo" was often and easily lost in QSB or QRN. However, whenever I
used "kilowatt" there was a almost always complete understanding by
the other party, and I was able to successfully conclude my QSO.

The key here, however, is that "kilowatt" is almost universally
understood by hams, being a part of the argot of the pasttime. I doubt
I would have had more than a 50% success rate had I tried it at work.

Similarly, it is unlikely that substitutions others might try would
have as good a success rate unless they, too, were related to amateur
radio. If one were to try to use xenophobic, for example, most hams
(or other people) would choke on the word itself, since few are likely
to have even heard of it.

The argument made by someone that "kilowatt" could be confused for
"kilo" "watt" is specious, since in real communications, the use of
"kilowatt" is clearly a single word. If one were to use "kilo" and
"watt" as phonetics for discrete letters, they would be spoken clearly
and separately, whereas "kilowatt" is spoken almost as one syllable.

Context and common sense are somewhat of a determinant in successful
communications using phonetics. That is one reason why many DXers are
very successful using America, Brazil, Canada, Denmark, England,
France, Guatemala, etc., as phonetics. Hardly a DXer exists who
doesn't immediately recognize those words.

Finally we are not a commercial service, and public service aside, we
have no particular external requirement to get our communications
completed. There is no "officially sanctioned" alphabet that we are
required to use. Although, my skin crawls when I hear Bob say, "Broken
Old Bottle," the fact remains he is perfectly legal in doing so. In
amateur radio, success in communications is the only motive. If
"Boston London" (remember him?) gets it done regularly and reliably,
it's a good combination. If you don't want to have think one up, stick
with the ICAO (NATO) alphabet. For the vast majority of cases it's a
proven winner.


LRod


I would've never thought this would've been an issue. My *own* method has to
generally adhere to the standard phonetics during message traffic, and
anything goes in informal QSOs. For example, the first time I ever signed
on years ago with KC4KWH, one of the guys on the local repeater remarked,
"AH! It's 'kilowatt hours"! And the name stuck. But he was not the only
one to think of it. When I "graduated" to HF, many times diverse hams
;picked up on those phonetics without any prompt-ing from me---even when I
sounded the suffix as
"kilo whiskey hotel", the guy was likely to respond with
'kilowatt hours'. During difficult conditions, I, too, have resorted to
kilowatt hours, and it *seems* to be universally understood. One or two in
the electrical industry said, "Boy, I wish I could 'buy' that call". LOL!
So when Vanity came along, I just dropped the 'c' and
became K4KWH.

Bottom line is, aw c'mon guys, relax and don't be so serious!

73

Jerry
K4KWH
(Kilowatt Hours)

"LRod" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:15:24 -0700, "Caveat Lector"
wrote:

Ah phonetics

Sorry to tag on this post out of sequence.

The bottom line is communications. While it is true that by using a
*standard* alphabet one maximizes the probability of being understood,
in truth and in real practice, there are times when deviation may be
necessary.

First my qualifications: I was an air traffic controller for 30 years
and a pilot for some years before that, thus I have been intimately
familiar with the ICAO alphabet for nearly 40 years; using it on a
daily basis for most of that time. When everyone is on the same page
by official fiat, it is unusual to find the need for other than the
standard words.

However, in all the years I was DXing (on the way to Honor Roll), I
found that my particular callsign (N9AKE at the time) had a couple of
shortcomings in real world, difficult conditions. The "K" spoken as
"kilo" was often and easily lost in QSB or QRN. However, whenever I
used "kilowatt" there was a almost always complete understanding by
the other party, and I was able to successfully conclude my QSO.

The key here, however, is that "kilowatt" is almost universally
understood by hams, being a part of the argot of the pasttime. I doubt
I would have had more than a 50% success rate had I tried it at work.

Similarly, it is unlikely that substitutions others might try would
have as good a success rate unless they, too, were related to amateur
radio. If one were to try to use xenophobic, for example, most hams
(or other people) would choke on the word itself, since few are likely
to have even heard of it.

The argument made by someone that "kilowatt" could be confused for
"kilo" "watt" is specious, since in real communications, the use of
"kilowatt" is clearly a single word. If one were to use "kilo" and
"watt" as phonetics for discrete letters, they would be spoken clearly
and separately, whereas "kilowatt" is spoken almost as one syllable.

Context and common sense are somewhat of a determinant in successful
communications using phonetics. That is one reason why many DXers are
very successful using America, Brazil, Canada, Denmark, England,
France, Guatemala, etc., as phonetics. Hardly a DXer exists who
doesn't immediately recognize those words.

Finally we are not a commercial service, and public service aside, we
have no particular external requirement to get our communications
completed. There is no "officially sanctioned" alphabet that we are
required to use. Although, my skin crawls when I hear Bob say, "Broken
Old Bottle," the fact remains he is perfectly legal in doing so. In
amateur radio, success in communications is the only motive. If
"Boston London" (remember him?) gets it done regularly and reliably,
it's a good combination. If you don't want to have think one up, stick
with the ICAO (NATO) alphabet. For the vast majority of cases it's a
proven winner.


LRod


I would've never thought this would've been an issue. My *own* method has to
generally adhere to the standard phonetics during message traffic, and
anything goes in informal QSOs. For example, the first time I ever signed
on years ago with KC4KWH, one of the guys on the local repeater remarked,
"AH! It's 'kilowatt hours"! And the name stuck. But he was not the only
one to think of it. When I "graduated" to HF, many times diverse hams
;picked up on those phonetics without any prompt-ing from me---even when I
sounded the suffix as
"kilo whiskey hotel", the guy was likely to respond with
'kilowatt hours'. During difficult conditions, I, too, have resorted to
kilowatt hours, and it *seems* to be universally understood. One or two in
the electrical industry said, "Boy, I wish I could 'buy' that call". LOL!
So when Vanity came along, I just dropped the 'c' and
became K4KWH.

Bottom line is, aw c'mon guys, relax and don't be so serious!

73

Jerry
K4KWH
(Kilowatt Hours)

"Caveat Lector" ) writes:
Ah phonetics

The ARRL and many other national entities recommend the NATO phonetics
for Amateur Radio use as most Hams around the world recognize them.

The best one was printed in a magazine at some point. It was using
words that would always add to the confusion. I can't remember specific
examples, but it would have been like xylophone and psychiatrist.

Of course, it was intended to be funny (it was), and was not intended
to be used on the air (though I wouldn't put it past someone).

Michael VE2BVW

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:15:24 -0700, "Caveat Lector"
wrote:

Ah phonetics

Sorry to tag on this post out of sequence.

The bottom line is communications. While it is true that by using a
*standard* alphabet one maximizes the probability of being understood,
in truth and in real practice, there are times when deviation may be
necessary.

First my qualifications: I was an air traffic controller for 30 years
and a pilot for some years before that, thus I have been intimately
familiar with the ICAO alphabet for nearly 40 years; using it on a
daily basis for most of that time. When everyone is on the same page
by official fiat, it is unusual to find the need for other than the
standard words.

However, in all the years I was DXing (on the way to Honor Roll), I
found that my particular callsign (N9AKE at the time) had a couple of
shortcomings in real world, difficult conditions. The "K" spoken as
"kilo" was often and easily lost in QSB or QRN. However, whenever I
used "kilowatt" there was a almost always complete understanding by
the other party, and I was able to successfully conclude my QSO.

The key here, however, is that "kilowatt" is almost universally
understood by hams, being a part of the argot of the pasttime. I doubt
I would have had more than a 50% success rate had I tried it at work.

Similarly, it is unlikely that substitutions others might try would
have as good a success rate unless they, too, were related to amateur
radio. If one were to try to use xenophobic, for example, most hams
(or other people) would choke on the word itself, since few are likely
to have even heard of it.

The argument made by someone that "kilowatt" could be confused for
"kilo" "watt" is specious, since in real communications, the use of
"kilowatt" is clearly a single word. If one were to use "kilo" and
"watt" as phonetics for discrete letters, they would be spoken clearly
and separately, whereas "kilowatt" is spoken almost as one syllable.

Context and common sense are somewhat of a determinant in successful
communications using phonetics. That is one reason why many DXers are
very successful using America, Brazil, Canada, Denmark, England,
France, Guatemala, etc., as phonetics. Hardly a DXer exists who
doesn't immediately recognize those words.

Finally we are not a commercial service, and public service aside, we
have no particular external requirement to get our communications
completed. There is no "officially sanctioned" alphabet that we are
required to use. Although, my skin crawls when I hear Bob say, "Broken
Old Bottle," the fact remains he is perfectly legal in doing so. In
amateur radio, success in communications is the only motive. If
"Boston London" (remember him?) gets it done regularly and reliably,
it's a good combination. If you don't want to have think one up, stick
with the ICAO (NATO) alphabet. For the vast majority of cases it's a
proven winner.


LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

"JDer8745" wrote in message
...
Howdy,

Recently I hear more and more hams using "kilowatt" as the phonetic for
the
letter K. The correct phonetic is "kilo".

73 de Jack, K9CUN. That's...

kickapoo niner certain underwear neurosis

And as the knowledge of new Hams shrinks (thanks to the efforts of NCI and
the like to reduce Ham radio to little more than CB radio) you will see more
of it.

Ham Radio, RIP.

10-73's!

Ah phonetics

The ARRL and many other national entities recommend the NATO phonetics
for Amateur Radio use as most Hams around the world recognize them.

This alphabet dates from about 1955 and is approved by the
International Civil Aviation Organization, the FAA and the
International Telecommunication Union,
and many National Amateur Leagues/Societies/Orgs.
Note that different bodies prefer different spellings, so one also sees:
Alfa Juliett Juliette Oskar Viktor]

Alpha Bravo Charlie Delta Echo Foxtrot Golf Hotel India
Juliet Kilo Lima Mike November Oscar Papa Quebec Romeo
Sierra Tango Uniform Victor Whiskey Xray Yankee Zulu

See URL: http://www.bckelk.uklinux.net/phon.full.html
-----------------------------------------

However the DX crowd over many years have used their own set --
which includes kilowatt. May be "wrong phonetics", but a fact of life for a
long time.
Unofficial but common DX phonetics are at URL:
http://ac6v.com/dxphonetics.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------

Next we have funny phonetics which are memorable and easy to recall -
like K6AKT - Karl Six Always Killing Time
Wrong phonetics but very very common on VHF repeaters and HF Contests
--------------------------------------------------

Next we have the old timers who insist on the WWII phonetics:
Able Baker Charlie Dog Easy Fox George How Item Jig King
Love Mike Nan Oboe Peter Queen Roger Sugar Tare Uncle Victor
William X-ray Yoke Zebra
And these guys are always tuning after a CQ Call !!
-------------------------------------------------

Then we have the civil entity phonetics. Some hams but many don't use or
understand these:
Adam Boy Charlie David Edward Frank George Henry Ida John
King Lincoln Mary Nora Ocean Peter Queen Robert Sam Tom
Union Victor William X-ray Young Zebra
And a lot of other Boy/Girl names depending on locale
-----------------------------------------------------

Then we have Hams who don't know any of these and you might hear -- Name is
Tim - Texaco Indigo Macy's
Actually heard this one!

Bottom line -- use the NATO phonetics -- so most all will understand and
always during an emergency.

--
73 From The Signal In The Noise
Caveat Lector Ya All
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
"JDer8745" wrote in message
...
Howdy,

Recently I hear more and more hams using "kilowatt" as the phonetic for
the
letter K. The correct phonetic is "kilo".

73 de Jack, K9CUN. That's...

kickapoo niner certain underwear neurosis

In article , jder8745
@aol.com says...
Recently I hear more and more hams using "kilowatt" as the phonetic for the
letter K. The correct phonetic is "kilo".

Could this be considered, "hamming it up?"

groan

--

-- //Steve//

Steve Silverwood, KB6OJS
Fountain Valley, CA
Email:
Web: http://home.earthlink.net/~kb6ojs_steve