I meant to shut this off.
But forgot to unsubscribe the group.
When I read your "Reply" I thought about it and
finally decided to DE-BUNK the outrageous comments you made.

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
"Roger Gt" wrote:
Sorry, this can go no further, you
CHOSE not to believe anything
you like, but I was there at the
incidents described. (snip)

Yes, I choose not to believe accusations against a significant portion
of
this country's population, or accusations of incompetency against the
government of this country, without clear and convincing evidence to back
it
up. Surely you don't believe your word alone is enough for such
accusations,
in a public forum, to go unchallenged.

I made no accusations against any but the persons involved!
You were not there, and can only attempt to make it less clear.
What "significant portion of this country's population?"
The Peaceniks were at most somewhat less than 3% of the population, and
don't seem to share your dedication to protecting this country and it's
people.
I made no "accusations of incompetency against the government of this
country" Rather I pointed out My opinion of the generally poor decisions
made under a difficult set of circumstances.
These are hardly hidden and are for the most part common knowledge.

I was engaged in a discussion, not a court case, my word is good in court,
and many other forums, all of which I have a right to access and speak in.
You can not challenge my stated view of incidents by argument and innuendo!

(snip) So I will not continue, didn't mean
to get sucked into this line of discussion
anyway. The direction this has taken is
not in the topic of the radio group, and I
am leaving the group since it has produced
nothing of value or interest to me. (snip)

As I will shortly!

Well, that is certainly your decision to make. However, if what you've
said is really true, I strongly urge you to follow up by reporting your
experiences to the various veterans organizations in this country. Several
have ongoing programs to gather and verify the history of veterans over
the
years.

I made every attempt possible to me at the time. The school handled it as a
"student altercation" and their report did not state a cause! My sworn
statement is on record as were eight others.

The school has changed administrations since then, and the records are in
storage. It is possible, but not easy to obtain them. I've tried.

There have been auto accidents in California with over a hundred cars
involved, you heard how many were hurt and the outcome of these
accidents of course!

No, but there would be a written record of each of those automobile
accidents - newspaper accounts, police records, hospital records,
insurance
claims, and so on. The same is true for the incident you described (fifty
demonstrators jumping a marine, with fifteen requiring medical attention
for broken bones), which means your claim can be fairly easily verified if
true.

You are not quoting me, and clearly did not read nor understand what I said.
I said only one (Jackass) jumped the marine. There were fifty demonstrators
present, most ran when the violence erupted. Many (8) jumped in to help,
including myself. fifteen were looked at for medical reasons, but they were
only three broken bones, which I stated clearly! At the time the bones were
broken, there was some serious reduction in the action! Most were burses,
skinned knees and elbows, and (I think) a couple of black eyes.
Where do you get off mis-quoting in order to try to cast doubt upon someone
else? Is it poor form, dishonest and makes you look foolish!

Snipping out partial quotes, and modifying them to allow you more to comment
on is not questionable it is dishonest!
As to verification.
You have clearly never tried to obtain the records of an accident you were
not involved in!
You must state a reason, and they block out all names and addresses to
protect the privacy of the persons named. It takes a court order to obtain
more detail.

(snip) But why would you believe
the news papers, with known bias,
and not an eye witness? (snip)

I'm not going to "believe" anyone, including a supposed eyewitness,
without facts to back up what is said. I can ask a newspaper for the
source
of it's information, or research the incident myself in the same manner as
the newspaper did. But, an eyewitness, without verification of what is
said,
is the absolute least reliable source of information.

You would be a poor juror!
The court is clear, testimony and physical evidence are the only material
you may base a finding upon.

Also, as I said, I was not trying to make you believe, rather relate to you
an experience I HAD and verify that I had reason to believe it was more
common than the several minor incidents I personally viewed! Nothing you
have said changes anything at all!

You state the obvious as if you have
a problem believing it. Why if Generals
lack this magically unique knowledge
are they sometimes... (snip)


Again, a military officer does not have a mandate from the people to
make
decisions that could impact all Americans. In a democracy, we place that
authority in the hands of the elected government, not in Generals. The
elected President is Commander in Chief of the military and the soldiers
(including Generals) obey his commands. Any effort to subvert that system,
by claiming government should have no say in the actions of our military
or
whatever, is, in my opinion, a direct effort to subvert the very system of
government in this country. I took an oath many years ago to defend the
people, Constitution, and government, of this country. I still consider
the
ultimate goal of that oath worthwhile.

Repeating yourself doesn't make you more believable nor more patriotic!
You make statements which clearly indicate you either didn't understand what
I said, or have twisted the words to mean what you WANTED to hear. That
Ho-Ra not withstanding, it is not part of nor has any bearing upon the
discussion we were involved in.
I choose not to be drawn into a discussion of the responsibilities of
officers (Generals) to advise a president. It is not part of this
discussion!
After a visit to your poorly written web site, I see your travels possibly
corrupted your perspective and you have a twisted view of reality!

"Roger Gt" wrote:

(snip) You are not quoting me, and clearly
did not read nor understand what I said.
I said only one (Jackass) jumped the marine.
There were fifty demonstrators present,
most ran when the violence erupted. Many
(8) jumped in to help, including myself.
fifteen were looked at for medical reasons,
but they were only three broken bones,
which I stated clearly! (snip)
Where do you get off mis-quoting in order
to try to cast doubt upon someone else?
Is it poor form, dishonest and makes you
look foolish!


Lets see who is really being dishonest here. Your exact words were...

"The worst one was when a gang
of about fifty demonstrators tried
to prevent an ex Marine from going
to class because the demonstration
was "shutting down" the school.. It
was only heated discussion, until
some jackass decided that since the
Jar-Head wouldn't do what they
told him they would restrain him. He
was gentle, no fatalities, fifteen taken
for medical attention. NEVER JUMP
a mud Marine! The crowd scattered
when he started breaking bones."

You clearly said "they," not one, tried to restrain the marine ("they
would restrain him"). You said nothing about most demonstrators running when
the violence erupted. Instead, you said the "crowd scattered when he started
breaking bones." You said nothing about the number of broken bones. And,
finally, you said fifteen demonstrators needed medical attention ("He was
gentle, no fatalities, fifteen taken for medical attention"). The story
you're telling now is a lot different from the story you told before.


Snipping out partial quotes, and modifying
them to allow you more to comment on is
not questionable it is dishonest!


I have not modified a single one of the quotes of what you've said. Your
messages, and my quotes from those messages, are there for all to see.


(snip) You would be a poor juror! The court
is clear, testimony and physical evidence are
the only material you may base a finding upon.


Of course, this is a public forum, not a courtroom, Roger. However, lets
look at this from that perspective for a moment. The strongest testimony is
that backed up by physical evidence. You've offered no physical evidence.
Regardless, since you've now changed your story under cross examination,
nothing you've said would hold up even in a courtroom.


(snip) After a visit to your poorly written web
site, I see your travels possibly corrupted your
perspective and you have a twisted view of
reality!


Those travels were arranged, and paid for, by the Department of Defense.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

Quoth "Dwight Stewart" in
k.net:

"Roger Gt" wrote:

(snip) You are not quoting me, and clearly
did not read nor understand what I said.
I said only one (Jackass) jumped the marine.
There were fifty demonstrators present,
most ran when the violence erupted. Many
(8) jumped in to help, including myself.
fifteen were looked at for medical reasons,
but they were only three broken bones,
which I stated clearly! (snip)
Where do you get off mis-quoting in order
to try to cast doubt upon someone else?
Is it poor form, dishonest and makes you
look foolish!


Lets see who is really being dishonest here. Your exact words were...

"The worst one was when a gang
of about fifty demonstrators tried
to prevent an ex Marine from going
to class because the demonstration
was "shutting down" the school.. It
was only heated discussion, until
some jackass decided that since the
Jar-Head wouldn't do what they
told him they would restrain him. He
was gentle, no fatalities, fifteen taken
for medical attention. NEVER JUMP
a mud Marine! The crowd scattered
when he started breaking bones."

You clearly said "they," not one, tried to restrain the marine ("they
would restrain him"). You said nothing about most demonstrators running
when the violence erupted. Instead, you said the "crowd scattered when
he started breaking bones." You said nothing about the number of broken
bones. And, finally, you said fifteen demonstrators needed medical
attention ("He was gentle, no fatalities, fifteen taken for medical
attention"). The story you're telling now is a lot different from the
story you told before.

Just for the sake of completeness, the entire article may be found archived at
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=RSnGb.2255%24gO.607%40newssvr25.news.p rodigy.com.

It does indeed verify the accuracy of Dwight's quote.

--
"I am afeard there are few die well that die in a battle; for how can they
charitably dispose of anything when blood is their argument? Now, if these
men do not die well, it will be a black matter for the King that led them
to it; who to disobey were against all proportion of subjection." - W.S.

"Tom Betz" wrote in message
. 70...
Quoth "Dwight Stewart" in
k.net:

"Roger Gt" wrote:

(snip) You are not quoting me, and clearly
did not read nor understand what I said.
I said only one (Jackass) jumped the marine.
There were fifty demonstrators present,
most ran when the violence erupted. Many
(8) jumped in to help, including myself.
fifteen were looked at for medical reasons,
but they were only three broken bones,
which I stated clearly! (snip)
Where do you get off mis-quoting in order
to try to cast doubt upon someone else?
Is it poor form, dishonest and makes you
look foolish!


Lets see who is really being dishonest here. Your exact words were...

"The worst one was when a gang
of about fifty demonstrators tried
to prevent an ex Marine from going
to class because the demonstration
was "shutting down" the school.. It
was only heated discussion, until
some jackass decided that since the
Jar-Head wouldn't do what they
told him they would restrain him. He
was gentle, no fatalities, fifteen taken
for medical attention. NEVER JUMP
a mud Marine! The crowd scattered
when he started breaking bones."

You clearly said "they," not one, tried to restrain the marine ("they
would restrain him"). You said nothing about most demonstrators running
when the violence erupted. Instead, you said the "crowd scattered when
he started breaking bones." You said nothing about the number of broken
bones. And, finally, you said fifteen demonstrators needed medical
attention ("He was gentle, no fatalities, fifteen taken for medical
attention"). The story you're telling now is a lot different from the
story you told before.

Just for the sake of completeness, the entire article may be found
archived at

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...wssvr25.news.p
rodigy.com.

It does indeed verify the accuracy of Dwight's quote.


The story has not changed, I only added details to show his assumptions were
BOGUS.
Actually I DID detail the number of broken bones! The number taken to the
Schools clinic included four of us who tried to break it up! I only got a
skinned knee. I didn't feel that was a needed detail, or for that matter
than any significant detail was needed. I was unaware that Dwight was
intending to defend the actions about which he has no first hand knowledge!
You are also being very selective and not at all objective.
None of these comments has any impact upon the incident which occurred so
long ago!
So inclusion of "they" was a misleading indicator which cause him to jump to
several unfounded assumptions. Again, his perception, not my commentary.
There is no point in the "Cross Examination" unless he maintains the
Demonstrators were not at fault. Please Name those you are defending! I
was there and couldn't get the names!
Perhaps more detail would have been needed, but there seemed no point, it is
OT!
However let me point out that he makes the comment

(snip) After a visit to your poorly written web
site, I see your travels possibly corrupted your
perspective and you have a twisted view of
reality!

Those travels were arranged, and paid for, by the Department of Defense.

On his web page he states,
I was born in North Carolina in 1953. However, other than two years on the
coast of the Mediterranean Sea near Istanbul Turkey, I spent much of my
childhood in Sacramento California. I enlisted in the Army in 1970 and
served a little over two years in Germany (MOS 31M - Radio Relay Operator).
I returned to Europe in 1977 and found work as a sales representative with a
consumer electronics marketing firm based in Basel, Switzerland. I later
managed a German-owned computer store in Heidelberg.

During those ten years in Germany, I took a course in journalism and public
affairs, and an electrician course with several additional sub-courses in
communications fundamentals, logical troubleshooting, and electrical
physics.

In 1998, I went to Europe once again to live in Vicenza Italy for a year.
When I returned to the United States, I lived in Washington State for
several months and then moved to my present home in Myrtle Beach, South
Carolina.

Were all these Junkets paid for by Tax dollars? Shame!!!!

So much for your insistent irrelevant nitpicking!

Good Bye!

"Roger Gt" wrote:

(snip) However let me point out that he
makes the comment

(snip) After a visit to your poorly written
web site, I see your travels possibly
corrupted your perspective and you have
a twisted view of reality!

Those travels were arranged, and paid for,
by the Department of Defense.

On his web page he states,
I was born in North Carolina.... (snip)

(snip) Were all these Junkets paid for by
Tax dollars? Shame!!!!


If you wanted details, all you had to do was ask (as I did for you,
Roger). As for Turkey, my father was stationed there with the Air Force. The
trip to Germany was paid for by the Army while my wife was still on active
duty. She got out three years later and went to work for the Army as a
civilian employee (HQ USAREUR in Heidelberg). For much of that time I worked
at civilian jobs, and later for the Army itself. I was still working for the
Army, as a civilian employee, when we went to Italy (HQ SETAF in Vicenza)
for the Kosovo conflict. My wife retired as DoD employee shortly before the
trip to Italy and I retired shortly afterward (just after the trip to
Washington state).


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
link.net...
"Roger Gt" wrote:

(snip) However let me point out that he
makes the comment

(snip) After a visit to your poorly written
web site, I see your travels possibly
corrupted your perspective and you have
a twisted view of reality!

Those travels were arranged, and paid for,
by the Department of Defense.

On his web page he states,
I was born in North Carolina.... (snip)

(snip) Were all these Junkets paid for by
Tax dollars? Shame!!!!


If you wanted details, all you had to do was ask (as I did for you,
Roger). As for Turkey, my father was stationed there with the Air Force.
The
trip to Germany was paid for by the Army while my wife was still on active
duty. She got out three years later and went to work for the Army as a
civilian employee (HQ USAREUR in Heidelberg). For much of that time I
worked
at civilian jobs, and later for the Army itself. I was still working for
the
Army, as a civilian employee, when we went to Italy (HQ SETAF in Vicenza)
for the Kosovo conflict. My wife retired as DoD employee shortly before
the
trip to Italy and I retired shortly afterward (just after the trip to
Washington state).


Gee it hurts when the shoe is on the other foot.
That is what you were doing with what I said,
jumping to conclusions about what I said.
You did not ask, you assumed!
It is different when your ox is gored.

You should not be so quick to criticize others when
they do what your have been indulging in all along!

BTW: 'I' do believe you! My Step father was airforce,
we traveled all over. But rarely in Europe!
Although he used to go for several months at a time.
Usually as an interceptor pilot it was all over America.

But you didn't ask for more details, you criticized taking
immense leaps of faith at what you THOUGHT I had said!

To BAD!
Good Bye!

--
Set wards, light torches, unfurl banners, play a joyous tune.
Yes! Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow --- You know the rest!
The lot of all living things. To bide a bit, and pass!
Leaving only foot steps in the sands of time!

Happy Holidays to all! Celebrate as you will!
May the Gods be kind to you and yours!

"Roger Gt" wrote:

Gee it hurts when the shoe is on
the other foot. That is what you
were doing with what I said,
jumping to conclusions about
what I said. (snip)


I didn't jump to any conclusions. Instead, I simply questioned the exact
words you posted to this newsgroup.


You did not ask, you assumed!


See the last paragraph below.


It is different when your ox is gored.


Man, you're not at all in touch with reality. No ox of mine was gored. I
openly volunteered the information, as I have done many times in these
newsgroups over the years.


You should not be so quick to criticize
others when they do what your have
been indulging in all along!


Initially, any criticism was in your own head. I simply questioned the
story given. You grew defensive when it became obvious that I wasn't going
to accept your story as offered. At that point, you began to change and
embelish the story to make it more believable. But, in my view, those very
changes and embellishments only made the story less believable (the truth
rarely changes).


But you didn't ask for more details, you
criticized taking immense leaps of faith at
what you THOUGHT I had said!


I specificially asked you when and where the incident took place. If you
continue to deny that (as you've now done twice in this message), I'll post
an exact quote of those words too. Otherwise, I've had my say, with nothing
more needed to be said, so will therefore let this entire discussion drop at
this point. Take care, Roger.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Tom Betz" wrote in message
. 70...
Quoth "Dwight Stewart" in
k.net:

"Roger Gt" wrote:

(snip)

And why would you care?

I only related that I HAD seen a demonstration where violence erupted, and
DS wanted to pick it apart. Nether polite conversation, nor good manners
were evident!
Are there no participants in news groups with a modicum of manners?
Are you defending violent demonstrations as a "first amendment right?"
Rhetorical, your answers are of no consequence, and will have no effect!
All will be as it is now, and the sands will cover it all in time!

--
Set wards, light torches, unfurl banners, play a joyous tune.
Yes! Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow --- You know the rest!
The lot of all living things. To bide a bit, and pass!
Leaving only foot steps in the sands of time!

Happy Holidays to all! Celebrate as you will!
May the Gods be kind to you and yours!