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Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
All,
I have a situation, and would like some opinions rather than flames on how to handle it. My wife teaches at a public school just off the Easter Arizona Navajo reservation. Lately, a junior school science teacher is starting up a science club and has asked me to provide for the amateur radio side of the club and be its control operator. She believes that the kids would be fascinated by the Morse code - Dxing - Construction end of the hobby, even though Morse is no longer a required test element. The kids are mostly Navajo and thusly have a very limited technological background (hence the reason for the club to stir the interest), so I need something concrete with immediate payoff to keep their interest hooked while getting them as ready as I can to write their Technician exam. The nearest VEC is 4 hours away and I'd rather have as few fail as possible. I had thought to start an unlicensed micro-power code practice net whose range would be limited to about a 30 mile radius, which is about the size of the local reservation right next to the school. What I want to do is provide each kid with a popcorn CW transceiver for the colorburst frequency (3579 khz), a key, a short random wire, and a battery. That way they could practice amongst themselves with myself as occasional net control. My question is this: so long as final output to the antenna is within the requirement of part 15 unlicensed operation, is part 15 unlicensed operation allowed within a band normally governed under part 97? Part 15 operation would easily cover a 30 mile radius on 80M. If no, I'll run the net under part 15 on the edge of the AM band near 160M. Thanks in advance, The Eternal Squire |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
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Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
I'm a bit more worried about having them memorize the Clapp, Colpitts,
and Pierce Oscillators. Isn't that stuff still on Tech exam? The Eternal Squire On Jan 25, 8:01 pm, Lawrence Statton XE2/N1GAK wrote: writes: All, I have a situation, and would like some opinions rather than flames on how to handle it. My wife teaches at a public school just off the Easter Arizona Navajo reservation. Lately, a junior school science teacher is starting up a science club and has asked me to provide for the amateur radio side of the club and be its control operator.[much snippage]... I won't flame you at all -- I admire your elmering, and think it's a great idea. I'd be exteremely careful to make sure you meet the field-strength requirements of Part-15 with whatever project you do -- it can be remarkably easy to get foul of it and reliable measurements require skill. Besides 80m and the top of the AM ex-band you might also consider the lowfer 1750m stuff ... Lots of kits out there for it, and an active user community. Of course getting them all licensed would be the best solutiuon ... Junior high is probably just at the edge of where passing the novice or tech written would be a cake-walk. As I used to joke to my classes, "there's three parts to the written -- three engineering formulae: E=IR ; c = f lambda ; 40inches in a meter., a handful of common sense questions, and a few memorizable factoids" (band edges, etc.) I had a sixth grader of average intelligence in one class - it was a little harder for her, but she passed it on her second try. -- Lawrence Statton - s/aba/c/g Computer software consists of only two components: ones and zeros, in roughly equal proportions. All that is required is to place them into the correct order. |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
On 25 Jan 2007 19:29:27 -0800, wrote in .com:
I'm a bit more worried about having them memorize the Clapp, Colpitts, and Pierce Oscillators. Isn't that stuff still on Tech exam? The Eternal Squire OhHellNo! Techs need to memorize band edges and remember the 2 basic rules: E = I * R, c = lambda * f, and a meter is really close to 40". I doubt it's even on the _commercial_ exams any more, though it sure was when I got my Second Phone, back in 1962. -- Mike Andrews, W5EGO Tired old sysadmin |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
On 25 Jan 2007 19:29:27 -0800, wrote in .com:
I'm a bit more worried about having them memorize the Clapp, Colpitts, and Pierce Oscillators. Isn't that stuff still on Tech exam? The Eternal Squire OhHellNo! Techs need to memorize band edges and remember the 3 basic rules: E = I * R, c = lambda * f, and a meter is really close to 40". I doubt it's even on the _commercial_ exams any more, though it sure was when I got my Second Phone, back in 1962. -- Mike Andrews, W5EGO Tired old sysadmin |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
wrote in message ups.com... My question is this: so long as final output to the antenna is within the requirement of part 15 unlicensed operation, is part 15 unlicensed operation allowed within a band normally governed under part 97? Part 15 operation would easily cover a 30 mile radius on 80M. http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/w...7cfr15_06.html Part 15.223 says in part... "Subpart C_Intentional Radiators Sec. 15.223 Operation in the band 1.705-10 MHz. (a) The field strength of any emission within the band 1.705-10.0 MHz shall not exceed 100 microvolts/meter at a distance of 30 meters. However, if the bandwidth of the emission is less than 10% of the center frequency, the field strength shall not exceed 15 microvolts/meter or (the bandwidth of the device in kHz) divided by (the center frequency of the device in MHz) microvolts/meter at a distance of 30 meters, whichever is the higher level." For CW operation, your bandwidth is zero for all practical purposes. You will therefore be allowed 15 uV/m at 30 meters. From this I made a very crude estimate of your allowed transmitter output power. Assuming your transmitter antenna is 100% efficient and radiates hemispherically, your transmitter output power is allowed to be no more than about 1.7 nanowatts (1.7e-9 watts). For ideal circumstances (0 dB receiver antenna gain, 100% efficient receiver antenna), you would get less than 5 uV at a receiver 400 meters away. I stress that this is for ideal circumstances. If your transmitting antenna is less efficient, you can run more power, but less of your power gets launched. How efficient is that antenna, anyway? On the other hand, your antenna may have some directivity which would further limit your power. This is making my head hurt. All that can really be said about this estimate is that, to be safe, you should not have much more than about 2 nanowatts output power unless you have the ability to measure the field strength according to regulations. Good luck with your project. 73, John |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
) writes:
What I want to do is provide each kid with a popcorn CW transceiver for the colorburst frequency (3579 khz), a key, a short random wire, and a battery. That way they could practice amongst themselves with myself as occasional net control. The last thing in the world you want to do is give them the ability to send and receive. Because then you'll get a bunch of senders and nobody who can receive. I made the same mistake when I was ten and got a morse code set. Two units connected by wires, and you could switch between a morse sounder, a light bulb or a buzzer. It was great for sending away, but the problem was there was nobody to receive. And sending didn't mean a thing in learning to receive. I think it's correct to believe that youngsters would be interested in morse code, a "secret language" at an age when "secret language" means something. But I don't see this helping. You need to send to them, something they don't need licenses for or a worry about whether the transmitter needs a license or not. But then, they do need receivers. Only later will they have the ability to communicate with morse code. They don't need license-free transmitters to get a feel for ham radio. They can talk (and if they know morse code, send) as third parties over your station. You can build up simple receivers for them, or better yet get them interested in building their own simple receivers, and then listen to a ham band or your code practice transmissions. Building the receivers is a way to get them enthused about the hobby, if done right. Again, getting the thing to work is a sense of accomplishment, and it doesn't matter how simple the receiver might be. Charles Kitchin has had some simple regen receivers in QST in recent years, using easy to get parts. I looked at one and everything could come out of a good junk box. He had one that used a color subcarrier crystal, again an easy to get part and which made it easy to tune. At least one of the articles is at the ARRL website for all to access. Do a websearch on his name, and you'll find that various clubs have done it as a group project. But also, when amateur radio is taught in schools, it always looks good, because so many pass the test. I'm not so sure so many stick with the hobby. Some of what's appealing about the hobby is that it's not for everyone. I passed the test when I was 12, and it was something to boast about at school, if school hadn't ended just before I got the test results. I'm not convinced it would have had the same appeal if it had been a regular school thing. So often amateur radio benefits those school kids as a catalyst for other things. And thus it's important that in this case getting the ham license isn't the end goal. Getting them interested in learning, getting them interested in building, even getting them interested in communicating should be the goal. If they get something out of building a simple radio receiver, then that's more important than passing a test but getting nothing. So letting them be third parties on your radio, and talking to distant places, or even other reserves, is beneficial, whether or not it leads them to getting a license. Getting them interested in building, be it a radio receiver or some other gadget that can be made with junk parts, is beneficial in itself. (And maybe a reservation isn't the home of much electronic trash, but it's generally so easy to get that they could learn from the act of taking things apart.) Build up various means of sending morse code, and use that as demonstration of things, rather than seeing morse code as the goal. You can send morse by radio, and light, but you can also modulate a light so you get a tone with morse code out of the speaker at the receiving end. During WWII there was various activity using the earth to send and receiver (since ham licenses were in suspension), and that's another neat thing. You need to show them that there are neat things, before they can pursue those things. These things are the lure to get them interested in amateur radio. They help to make going after the license appealing. But if it's done right, they will benefit long before they make a decision about getting a ham license. Michael VE2BVW |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
In fourth grade (1952) a camp counselor had built a voice radio transmitter
that put out a signal on the broadcast band that we could hear all over the campground. Was it illegal? HELL yes, it put out almost a watt into a random wire antenna. Could it be heard a couple of miles away? HELL no. It was a watt into a junk antenna. That illegal transmitter put this kid into a 50 year career as an electronics engineer with a lot of stops along the way. My advice ... build a VOICE transmitter that has a couple of miles range and let the kids have fun with it. Licenses, we don't need no steenking licenses... Jim wrote in message ups.com... All, I have a situation, and would like some opinions rather than flames on how to handle it. My wife teaches at a public school just off the Easter Arizona Navajo reservation. Lately, a junior school science teacher is starting up a science club and has asked me to provide for the amateur radio side of the club and be its control operator. |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
On Jan 25, 9:23 pm, wrote:
I have a situation, and would like some opinions rather than flames on how to handle it. My wife teaches at a public school just off the Easter Arizona Navajo reservation. Lately, a junior school science teacher is starting up a science club and has asked me to provide for the amateur radio side of the club and be its control operator. She believes that the kids would be fascinated by the Morse code - Dxing - Construction end of the hobby, even though Morse is no longer a required test element. The kids are mostly Navajo and thusly have a very limited technological background (hence the reason for the club to stir the interest), so I need something concrete with immediate payoff to keep their interest hooked while getting them as ready as I can to write their Technician exam. The nearest VEC is 4 hours away and I'd rather have as few fail as possible. I had thought to start an unlicensed micro-power code practice net whose range would be limited to about a 30 mile radius, which is about the size of the local reservation right next to the school. What I want to do is provide each kid with a popcorn CW transceiver for the colorburst frequency (3579 khz), a key, a short random wire, and a battery. That way they could practice amongst themselves with myself as occasional net control. Ignoring your legal question, a suggestion: Radio isn't too impressive among kids these days. Especially in lesser-developed parts of the world (I honestly don't know how much that overlaps with these kids?) everybody has a cellphone anyways. So if Morse code is to be an attractor (and it is, being an arcane art with secret-code aspects, going to be somewhat attractive to at least some kids), start with wired operation. Yeah, it's really super-basic: battery, key, beeper, wires, maybe a blinking light bulb. But if you skip the basics (and it sounds like these kids may have already missed the basics) then they'll get nothing out of it anyway. I've worked with similar school-age kids in a vastly more developed/educated part of the U.S. and they generally don't know how to wire a light bulb to a battery even though they all know how to use a USB keychain to exchange MP3's via myspace accounts. If you're lucky, you'll find a one or two techie kids who take after the detailed radio interests not too different than your own. Otherwise, aim low, very very low in terms of complexity, in an effort to bring up the low end rather than cater to the one or two kids who would really benefit from your more advanced plans. Tim. |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
RST Engineering wrote: That illegal transmitter put this kid into a 50 year career as an electronics engineer with a lot of stops along the way. My advice ... build a VOICE transmitter that has a couple of miles range and let the kids have fun with it. Licenses, we don't need no steenking licenses... Jim Andy writes: And remember, it is much easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission.... Do what you gotta do, but don't advertise. There is always someone around who will try to make a big thing about it. And for goodness sakes, don't tell anyone involved that what they are doing is illegal. (Also, I would advise against posting this on newsgroups :))) ) Andy |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
RST Engineering wrote:
That illegal transmitter put this kid into a 50 year career as an electronics engineer with a lot of stops along the way. My advice ... build a VOICE transmitter that has a couple of miles range and let the kids have fun with it. Licenses, we don't need no steenking licenses... Jim And they say the American spirit is dead? They say the men have all been "feminized" in America? They say the pointy-head attorneys have brain washed everyone with threats of litigation? They say the multi-dollar corporations now run the people like a heard of sheep under thought control? Hmmm, I wonder ... grin Warmest regards, JS |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
AndyS wrote:
... And remember, it is much easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission.... Do what you gotta do, but don't advertise. There is always someone around who will try to make a big thing about it. And for goodness sakes, don't tell anyone involved that what they are doing is illegal. (Also, I would advise against posting this on newsgroups :))) ) Andy AndyS: To sum that up? "If all else fails play dumb?" Hey, it has worked for me in the past! chuckle Regards, JS |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
Tim Shoppa wrote:
... Ignoring your legal question, a suggestion: Radio isn't too impressive among kids these days. Especially in lesser-developed parts of the world (I honestly don't know how much that overlaps with these kids?) everybody has a cellphone anyways. Tim: I really find there is a LOT of interest in radio these days. Example: The wife and I got a pair of maxon 49.??? Mhz communicators, vox, etc. At first, we got them for the motorcycle we had, the head gear can be jammed under a helmet and the transceiver clipped on a belt, great for talking while going down the road. Lately, with the super walmart and all, we have been using them while shopping, it is always easy to locate her in the store and we can shop together even though we shop apart. Or, I can wait outside and just meet here when she is checking out. Point is, I can't get through the store without someone striking up a conversation over these things. If I mention other areas of radio I am involved in, it can easily turn into an hour conversation ... Point being, an interest in radio is actually easy to begin in others. Biggest problem I have noted is that people just don't talk anymore, with these "conversation starters" on, they do! Regards, JS |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
John,
So, say I had a CW oscillator on the colorburst frequency. I'll shunt the output with a 50 ohm resistor to ground. I'll put a random wire at the top of the resistor. Basic equations yield P = (EE) / R If R is 50 Ohms and maximum output power is 1.7e-9 watts, then E is 4.1e-5 volts. So, would a measurement of 40 microvolts or less across the resistor be satisfactory? Thanks, The Eternal Squire On Jan 25, 9:44 pm, "John" wrote: wrote in oglegroups.com... My question is this: so long as final output to the antenna is within the requirement of part 15 unlicensed operation, is part 15 unlicensed operation allowed within a band normally governed under part 97? Part 15 operation would easily cover a 30 mile radius on 80M. http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/w...7cfr15_06.html Part 15.223 says in part... "Subpart C_Intentional Radiators Sec. 15.223 Operation in the band 1.705-10 MHz. (a) The field strength of any emission within the band 1.705-10.0 MHz shall not exceed 100 microvolts/meter at a distance of 30 meters. However, if the bandwidth of the emission is less than 10% of the center frequency, the field strength shall not exceed 15 microvolts/meter or (the bandwidth of the device in kHz) divided by (the center frequency of the device in MHz) microvolts/meter at a distance of 30 meters, whichever is the higher level." For CW operation, your bandwidth is zero for all practical purposes. You will therefore be allowed 15 uV/m at 30 meters. From this I made a very crude estimate of your allowed transmitter output power. Assuming your transmitter antenna is 100% efficient and radiates hemispherically, your transmitter output power is allowed to be no more than about 1.7 nanowatts (1.7e-9 watts). For ideal circumstances (0 dB receiver antenna gain, 100% efficient receiver antenna), you would get less than 5 uV at a receiver 400 meters away. I stress that this is for ideal circumstances. If your transmitting antenna is less efficient, you can run more power, but less of your power gets launched. How efficient is that antenna, anyway? On the other hand, your antenna may have some directivity which would further limit your power. This is making my head hurt. All that can really be said about this estimate is that, to be safe, you should not have much more than about 2 nanowatts output power unless you have the ability to measure the field strength according to regulations. Good luck with your project. 73, John |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
|
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
John Smith I wrote:
But .0000000017 watts? I thought we were talking a full watt! (more of a pirate in me than some grin) JS |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
John Smith I wrote:
Anyway, I would pursue this much differently. Indian reservations are exempt from MANY of the rules, regulations and laws the rest of us non-indigenous peoples are subject too. I'd see if the above were not a factor in all this. JS |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
Okay, suppose I make a colorburst CW oscillator and shunt it with a 50
ohm resistor. I'd put a random wire at the top of the resistor. So from basic equations P = (EE)/R, with a power limit of 1.7 nanovolt this gives a voltage limit of 0.6 microvolt. I'm afraid I don't have a voltmeter or scope that goes that low. The Eternal Squire On Jan 25, 9:44 pm, "John" wrote: wrote in oglegroups.com... My question is this: so long as final output to the antenna is within the requirement of part 15 unlicensed operation, is part 15 unlicensed operation allowed within a band normally governed under part 97? Part 15 operation would easily cover a 30 mile radius on 80M. http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/w...7cfr15_06.html Part 15.223 says in part... "Subpart C_Intentional Radiators Sec. 15.223 Operation in the band 1.705-10 MHz. (a) The field strength of any emission within the band 1.705-10.0 MHz shall not exceed 100 microvolts/meter at a distance of 30 meters. However, if the bandwidth of the emission is less than 10% of the center frequency, the field strength shall not exceed 15 microvolts/meter or (the bandwidth of the device in kHz) divided by (the center frequency of the device in MHz) microvolts/meter at a distance of 30 meters, whichever is the higher level." For CW operation, your bandwidth is zero for all practical purposes. You will therefore be allowed 15 uV/m at 30 meters. From this I made a very crude estimate of your allowed transmitter output power. Assuming your transmitter antenna is 100% efficient and radiates hemispherically, your transmitter output power is allowed to be no more than about 1.7 nanowatts (1.7e-9 watts). For ideal circumstances (0 dB receiver antenna gain, 100% efficient receiver antenna), you would get less than 5 uV at a receiver 400 meters away. I stress that this is for ideal circumstances. If your transmitting antenna is less efficient, you can run more power, but less of your power gets launched. How efficient is that antenna, anyway? On the other hand, your antenna may have some directivity which would further limit your power. This is making my head hurt. All that can really be said about this estimate is that, to be safe, you should not have much more than about 2 nanowatts output power unless you have the ability to measure the field strength according to regulations. Good luck with your project. 73, John |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
John Smith I wrote:
John Smith I wrote: Anyway, I would pursue this much differently. Indian reservations are exempt from MANY of the rules, regulations and laws the rest of us non-indigenous peoples are subject too. I'd see if the above were not a factor in all this. JS Just think! Instead of the Indians having a monopoly on all gambling in California (yes, I know, it is really vegas using the Indians), they could now go ahead and get a monopoly on all broadcasting! JS |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
John Smith I wrote:
John Smith I wrote: John Smith I wrote: Anyway, I would pursue this much differently. Indian reservations are exempt from MANY of the rules, regulations and laws the rest of us non-indigenous peoples are subject too. I'd see if the above were not a factor in all this. JS Just think! Instead of the Indians having a monopoly on all gambling in California (yes, I know, it is really vegas using the Indians), they could now go ahead and get a monopoly on all broadcasting! JS Myself and a colleague discussed the number of permits and variances needed to launch real, orbital-type rockets and wondered how much would be required if you launched from a Native reservation. |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
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Hash: SHA1 In . com writes: All, I have a situation, and would like some opinions rather than flames on how to handle it. My wife teaches at a public school just off the Easter Arizona Navajo reservation. Lately, a junior school science teacher is starting up a science club and has asked me to provide for the amateur radio side of the club and be its control operator. [...] What I want to do is provide each kid with a popcorn CW transceiver for the colorburst frequency (3579 khz), a key, a short random wire, and a battery. That way they could practice amongst themselves with myself as occasional net control. [...] My question is this: so long as final output to the antenna is within the requirement of part 15 unlicensed operation, is part 15 unlicensed operation allowed within a band normally governed under part 97? Part 15 operation would easily cover a 30 mile radius on 80M. If no, I'll run the net under part 15 on the edge of the AM band near 160M. Thanks in advance, The Eternal Squire I think this is an excellent, and well-intentioned, idea in principle. Others here have given good advice about being careful about power levels. The Technical Information Service (TIS) at the American Radio Relay League (ARRL) has put together a very comprehensive and informative web page relating to Part 15. It's particularly helpful in explaining about how Part 15 fits in with Part 97. It can be found at: http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/part15.html Especially note the "Myths" and "Scope" links at the above site. - -- 73, Paul W. Schleck, K3FU http://www.novia.net/~pschleck/ Finger for PGP Public Key -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (SunOS) iD8DBQFFujAz6Pj0az779o4RAsCLAJ9XlNAFNW+QlZ0VDDK6UE B/V6E/mgCfV9xq w9Pir5leWIFOmGTRZfj/vGM= =cIeL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
Paul W. Schleck wrote:
... I certainly hope Paul is an attorney, as if he speaks about the reservation, I hope he speaks with knowledge. Here is a paper which will demonstrate there is "quite a bit of controversy" over legality of 97 and 15 on reservations: http://www.fcc.gov/sptf/files/0801fcc.pdf Course, with some, an amateur license immediately makes them an authority in all areas ... Warmest regards, JS |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
wrote in message
ups.com... All, I have a situation, and would like some opinions rather than flames on how to handle it. My wife teaches at a public school just off the Eastern Arizona Navajo reservation. Lately, a junior school science teacher is starting up a science club and has asked me to provide for the amateur radio side of the club and be its control operator. She believes that the kids would be fascinated by the Morse code - DXing - Construction end of the hobby, even though Morse is no longer a required test element. The kids are mostly Navajo and thusly have a very limited technological background (hence the reason for the club to stir the interest), so I need something concrete with immediate payoff to keep their interest hooked while getting them as ready as I can to write their Technician exam. The nearest VEC is 4 hours away and I'd rather have as few fail as possible. The Navajo people have a proud heritage for their WW2 participation in usage of their language for communication in the Pacific (Japanese could not break it). See movie - Windtalkers (and a couple of others). CW may be of interest to some - in that it is also a human translated code -- that was a foreign to 19th century US citizens -- as Arabic is to many 21st century Americans today. You should contact the VEC to see what accommodations they could make -- to assist you for testing. Good luck with it. w9gb |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
wrote in message oups.com... I'm a bit more worried about having them memorize the Clapp, Colpitts, and Pierce Oscillators. Isn't that stuff still on Tech exam? The Eternal Squire Nope. It's not on either the Tech or General exams. It does show up on the Extra exam. Even at that a person might or might not get that question on their particular exam. Take a look at the Tech test pool on the ARRL set. You will see that it just covers basic stuff. Dee, N8UZE |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
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Hash: SHA1 In John Smith I writes: Paul W. Schleck wrote: ... I certainly hope Paul is an attorney, as if he speaks about the reservation, I hope he speaks with knowledge. I am not a lawyer. When faced with legal questions about my own operation, or when trying to help keep apparently honest and sincere people like "Eternal Squire" stay out of trouble, I defer to the true experts. Existing, compiled, and expert advice like that provided at the ARRL TIS site I previously mentioned would seem to be a good place to start. I also value the insight provided here by Usenet participants who are attorneys with experience in communications law. I would certainly defer to their input on this matter, if offered (*). I also ask myself if I am obeying the spirit as well as the letter of any law or regulation. I don't feel it's within the scope of good amateur practice, personal ethical conduct, or even just overall "good neighbor" guidelines to be focusing on alleged loopholes such as being on a Native American Reservation, in international waters, or an "educational project." Often such excuses are transparent, self-serving, and not borne out in actual legal practice, regulations, treaties, enforcement, etc. Unless I had a lot of legal resources at my disposal (pro bono counsel, etc.), I would probably not seek to try and make myself a legal test case, as some on the newsgroups seem bent on doing. I would hope that "Eternal Squire", whose post implies that he is a licensed radio amateur, is thinking along these same lines, also. I offered my layperson's advice in that context. Here is a paper which will demonstrate there is "quite a bit of controversy" over legality of 97 and 15 on reservations: http://www.fcc.gov/sptf/files/0801fcc.pdf I read the above transcript you provided. I note with interest that my friend, fellow ham, and Usenet peer Carl Stevenson (WK3C) was a member of this workshop. I'd certainly defer to his technical expertise. However, the gist I got from the transcript, and from asking legal experts, is that case law is mixed on the subject of whether what happens on a reservation is strictly an internal, tribal matter. That no one present at the workshop wanted to venture an authoritative answer doesn't meant that there aren't those involved in enforcement who could give one. Radio transmitters and casinos are given as principal examples where case law, practice, and jurisdictional agreements go against the assertion that on a reservation, U.S. law does not apply. Course, with some, an amateur license immediately makes them an authority in all areas ... It was a question about amateur radio, asked in an amateur radio newsgroup. I suggested that he seek expert advice, such as that summarized at the ARRL TIS web site I linked previously. No more, and no less. Warmest regards, JS (*) I did ask one of the experts in communications law that I know personally. He offered the following observations: "I would add something to the extent that you have been advised by a communications attorney with over 50 years' experience in FCC regulatory matters that unless there is a specific treaty granting a tribe authority to regulate amateur radio transmissions on a reservation, and there isn't, FCC law and jurisdiction prevail. There are agreements giving tribes authority to determine who may operate a broadcast station from a reservation, but the FCC must regulate the technical parameters (frequency, power, location) to be observed and grant the callsign and make all necessary international notifications. Similarly, in international waters or airspace, the country of registration of the vessel or aircraft retains jurisdiction, and any country may lodge a complaint of violation of the International Radio Regulations with the country of registration if that is the case. If the vessel or aircraft is 'unregistered', any country has the authority to blast it out of the water or the air, although that is a drastic measure. The International Radio Regulations do, however. oblige all countries to not condone or support any radio (or TV) broadcasting from international waters or airspace." As this seems to be drifting into a *.policy area, and not *.homebrew, I've set followups as appropriate. Feel free to override my default if you must. - -- Paul W. Schleck, K3FU http://www.novia.net/~pschleck/ Finger for PGP Public Key -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (SunOS) iD8DBQFFuuMd6Pj0az779o4RAidgAJ4tmvrsIgefuGREQz/Eqw20LljowACfRg1f glmhM6RbiJJcbgT3quj9GmM= =Dai7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
Paul W. Schleck wrote:
... Well, I must admit, anyone affiliated with the ARRL turns me off, as it does many. Although they cannot, possibly, be held directly and solely responsible for bringing amateur radio to the brink of disaster it now hangs at, they certainly have never helped much, well, other than themselves. However, I would strongly suggest anyone to investigate all of the options open to an Indian reservation, the laws which govern them are much different than those governing all other areas of the USA. If I read that paper correctly (mentioned in my earlier post), the FCC would seem to be mostly interested in the rf which left the borders of the reservation. I know ripples of shock went through the population of California when they were allowed to operate gambling casinos. Something most did not expect. I would not be surprised if further surprises along those same line do not await us ... Now, as to the rest, I am simply not impressed nor interested ... Regards, JS |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
Jim Higgins wrote:
... If you read that paper correctly all you saw was a few casual remarks on a topic that was dropped as fast as it arose and was never at any time addressed seriously in that document. To infer anything from what was said is, IMHO, foolish at best. As I remember, gambling on reservations had almost that/those humble beginnings ... It is clear, in my personal opinion, the FCC would have NO interest in rf levels on the reservation, and ONLY those leaving the borders of the reservation would EVER come into question ... Regards, JS |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
John Smith I wrote:
Jim Higgins wrote: ... If you read that paper correctly all you saw was a few casual remarks on a topic that was dropped as fast as it arose and was never at any time addressed seriously in that document. To infer anything from what was said is, IMHO, foolish at best. As I remember, gambling on reservations had almost that/those humble beginnings ... It is clear, in my personal opinion, the FCC would have NO interest in rf levels on the reservation, and ONLY those leaving the borders of the reservation would EVER come into question ... People living on the reservation have all the consumer electronics that can be interfered with that people living off the reservation have. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
John Smith I wrote:
Jim Higgins wrote: ... If you read that paper correctly all you saw was a few casual remarks on a topic that was dropped as fast as it arose and was never at any time addressed seriously in that document. To infer anything from what was said is, IMHO, foolish at best. As I remember, gambling on reservations had almost that/those humble beginnings ... It is clear, in my personal opinion, the FCC would have NO interest in rf levels on the reservation, and ONLY those leaving the borders of the reservation would EVER come into question ... Regards, JS Jim: Let me go a bit further on this. I happen to have a sister who works for Child Protective Services in California (CPS.) If you are Indian (even part) and CPS pays you a visit, and you ARE Indian, they must immediately back down and defer to the Indian Council on the reservation/tribe which the person in question is a member of ... that individual is NOT subject to the same laws you or I would be. Let me go a bit further: If you are Indian, the welfare agency will provide "different" benefits to you than some others. Indeed, the Washoe Tribe of California and Nevada "chip in" and provide you with "expanded" benefits and medical assistance. The above was/were gleaned though discussions with my sister over time .... anyone interested can investigate for themselves. I am intrigued by the fact the Indians care for their own so well; I would be interested in knowing more. Regards, JS |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
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Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
wrote in message oups.com... John, So, say I had a CW oscillator on the colorburst frequency. I'll shunt the output with a 50 ohm resistor to ground. I'll put a random wire at the top of the resistor. Basic equations yield P = (EE) / R If R is 50 Ohms and maximum output power is 1.7e-9 watts, then E is 4.1e-5 volts. So, would a measurement of 40 microvolts or less across the resistor be satisfactory? Thanks, The Eternal Squire I think it would be about 300 uV across 50 ohms ( I think you are off by about an order of magnitude). Yes, I think that would be okay. A good place to understand this stuff is on the ARRL site. Look into the BPL and RFI things there. Read everything you can find about this subject. If you research this thoroughly, you will find allies in the field, I'm sure. My intent here is not to discourage you in your project, but to encourage you to think critically. Always ask yourself why this has not been done before. Most of the time there is a reason, but sometimes (a small percentage of the time) it is because nobody has had an interest in the subject. But, you didn't ask for my philosophy. I sometimes get carried away. I apologize for that. Cheers and 73, John |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
Paul,
Its my opinion, the fact that these childrens' homes are on Navajo Land is legally irrelevant. From what I understand, Native territories are jurisdictions having roughly equal standing to the states, but just like states are still subject to the Constitution and to Acts of Congress, such as the one authorizing the FCC and parts 15 and 97. As for using a pseudonym, I use that rather than my name or call for obvious reasons of personal safety for myself and my family. Cheers, The Eternal Squire On Jan 26, 10:38 pm, Paul W. Schleck wrote: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 In John Smith I writes: Paul W. Schleck wrote: ... I certainly hope Paul is an attorney, as if he speaks about the reservation, I hope he speaks with knowledge.I am not a lawyer. When faced with legal questions about my own operation, or when trying to help keep apparently honest and sincere people like "Eternal Squire" stay out of trouble, I defer to the true experts. Existing, compiled, and expert advice like that provided at the ARRL TIS site I previously mentioned would seem to be a good place to start. I also value the insight provided here by Usenet participants who are attorneys with experience in communications law. I would certainly defer to their input on this matter, if offered (*). I also ask myself if I am obeying the spirit as well as the letter of any law or regulation. I don't feel it's within the scope of good amateur practice, personal ethical conduct, or even just overall "good neighbor" guidelines to be focusing on alleged loopholes such as being on a Native American Reservation, in international waters, or an "educational project." Often such excuses are transparent, self-serving, and not borne out in actual legal practice, regulations, treaties, enforcement, etc. Unless I had a lot of legal resources at my disposal (pro bono counsel, etc.), I would probably not seek to try and make myself a legal test case, as some on the newsgroups seem bent on doing. I would hope that "Eternal Squire", whose post implies that he is a licensed radio amateur, is thinking along these same lines, also. I offered my layperson's advice in that context. Here is a paper which will demonstrate there is "quite a bit of controversy" over legality of 97 and 15 on reservations: http://www.fcc.gov/sptf/files/0801fcc.pdfI read the above transcript you provided. I note with interest that my friend, fellow ham, and Usenet peer Carl Stevenson (WK3C) was a member of this workshop. I'd certainly defer to his technical expertise. However, the gist I got from the transcript, and from asking legal experts, is that case law is mixed on the subject of whether what happens on a reservation is strictly an internal, tribal matter. That no one present at the workshop wanted to venture an authoritative answer doesn't meant that there aren't those involved in enforcement who could give one. Radio transmitters and casinos are given as principal examples where case law, practice, and jurisdictional agreements go against the assertion that on a reservation, U.S. law does not apply. Course, with some, an amateur license immediately makes them an authority in all areas ...It was a question about amateur radio, asked in an amateur radio newsgroup. I suggested that he seek expert advice, such as that summarized at the ARRL TIS web site I linked previously. No more, and no less. Warmest regards, JS(*) I did ask one of the experts in communications law that I know personally. He offered the following observations: "I would add something to the extent that you have been advised by a communications attorney with over 50 years' experience in FCC regulatory matters that unless there is a specific treaty granting a tribe authority to regulate amateur radio transmissions on a reservation, and there isn't, FCC law and jurisdiction prevail. There are agreements giving tribes authority to determine who may operate a broadcast station from a reservation, but the FCC must regulate the technical parameters (frequency, power, location) to be observed and grant the callsign and make all necessary international notifications. Similarly, in international waters or airspace, the country of registration of the vessel or aircraft retains jurisdiction, and any country may lodge a complaint of violation of the International Radio Regulations with the country of registration if that is the case. If the vessel or aircraft is 'unregistered', any country has the authority to blast it out of the water or the air, although that is a drastic measure. The International Radio Regulations do, however. oblige all countries to not condone or support any radio (or TV) broadcasting from international waters or airspace." As this seems to be drifting into a *.policy area, and not *.homebrew, I've set followups as appropriate. Feel free to override my default if you must. - -- Paul W. Schleck, K3FU /~pschleck/ Finger for PGP Public Key -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (SunOS) iD8DBQFFuuMd6Pj0az779o4RAidgAJ4tmvrsIgefuGREQz/Eqw20LljowACfRg1f glmhM6RbiJJcbgT3quj9GmM= =Dai7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
I had thought to start an unlicensed micro-power code practice net whose range would be limited to about a 30 mile radius, which is about the size of the local reservation right next to the school. What I want to do is provide each kid with a popcorn CW transceiver for the colorburst frequency (3579 khz), a key, a short random wire, and a battery. That way they could practice amongst themselves with myself as occasional net control. My question is this: so long as final output to the antenna is within the requirement of part 15 unlicensed operation, is part 15 unlicensed operation allowed within a band normally governed under part 97? Part 15 operation would easily cover a 30 mile radius on 80M. If no, I'll run the net under part 15 on the edge of the AM band near 160M. Thanks in advance, The Eternal Squire I have been thinking about this for a while before making this reply. I would strongly suggest looking at the lowfer band. 160Kc to 190Kc The limitations are relatively straight forward. Maximum length of feed line, and antenna are 15meters. Maximum power input to the final amp stage is 1W. No other real limitations besides the fact that out of band emissions have to be below a specific point. That is about a 50 foot long antenna. There isn't much of a chance that they will try to string one up longer than that, unless they were really industrious. And they can learn about antenna loading, to get a better transmitted signal/range. The one watt input power level is easy to determine. If the input is 10V then adjust the current to a maximum of 100mA. They can use any mode of communication they want. CW, AM, SSB, FM, PSK31, BPSK, MFSK The sky is the limit as for as modes. If they have computers, most of the digital modes can be implemented with soundcard based communications software that is available as freeware Look up "MULTIPSK" They can set up beacons for propagation checks, or talk to each other in real time. 30 miles is an easy distance to reach with basic loaded antennas. Especially with PSK31 and CW. It will allow them to learn how to build receiving antennas. And if they can't reach, or hear someone on the other side of the reservation, then it will allow them to learn the basics of traffic handling by the stations in the middle relaying information from one station to another. It will also teach them the basics of the narrower bandwidth/greater range relationship. With the low bandwidth BPSK, PSK31 modes, they will easily communicate across the reservation even if they can barely hear each other on voice. You can either get kit equipment for receiving or transmitting, which is widely available on line. Or you can design and build your own. If they are lucky, they may even hear stations, and beacons from hundreds of miles away. Or even thousands. There is nothing like the thrill of DX. |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
N9WOS wrote:
I have been thinking about this for a while before making this reply. I would strongly suggest looking at the lowfer band. 160Kc to 190Kc The limitations are relatively straight forward. Maximum length of feed line, and antenna are 15meters. Maximum power input to the final amp stage is 1W. No other real limitations besides the fact that out of band emissions have to be below a specific point. That is about a 50 foot long antenna. There isn't much of a chance that they will try to string one up longer than that, unless they were really industrious. And they can learn about antenna loading, to get a better transmitted signal/range. The one watt input power level is easy to determine. If the input is 10V then adjust the current to a maximum of 100mA. They can use any mode of communication they want. CW, AM, SSB, FM, PSK31, BPSK, MFSK The sky is the limit as for as modes. If they have computers, most of the digital modes can be implemented with soundcard based communications software that is available as freeware Look up "MULTIPSK" They can set up beacons for propagation checks, or talk to each other in real time. 30 miles is an easy distance to reach with basic loaded antennas. Especially with PSK31 and CW. It will allow them to learn how to build receiving antennas. And if they can't reach, or hear someone on the other side of the reservation, then it will allow them to learn the basics of traffic handling by the stations in the middle relaying information from one station to another. It will also teach them the basics of the narrower bandwidth/greater range relationship. With the low bandwidth BPSK, PSK31 modes, they will easily communicate across the reservation even if they can barely hear each other on voice. You can either get kit equipment for receiving or transmitting, which is widely available on line. Or you can design and build your own. If they are lucky, they may even hear stations, and beacons from hundreds of miles away. Or even thousands. There is nothing like the thrill of DX. Yanno, that is damn good thinking. I haven't played in the lowfer freqs for ages. Regards, JS |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
If (mind you, IF) I was going to make a device that would bootleg a signal
over a 30 mile range, the LAST frequency I would pick is one that had a real good chance of messing up somebody's color TV set in that radius. Google on Mouser, crystal, and you will get HUNDREDS of cheap crystals that aren't going to be messing up anybody's home entertainment devices. You might also google for "emergency frequency" to keep away from the Coast Guard's "hit the red button" frequencies. If it twer me, I'd probably find a quiet spot on 80 meters for the little rugrats. Jim wrote in message oups.com... John, So, say I had a CW oscillator on the colorburst frequency. |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
You can either get kit equipment for receiving or transmitting, which is
widely available on line. Or you can design and build your own. Maybe I should clarify one of my statements before someone calls me stupid. I mean easily modifiable equipment is widely available online. It isn't sold for Lowfer operation. Most heterodyne and direct conversion based short wave, receiving kits can be modified over to the LF band from 160 to 190kc On a 455kc heterodyne receiver, push the local oscillator down to 615 to 645 kc, and put a band pass network on the input peaked to the lowfer band, and you are done. Same thing can be done for SSB transmitter kits that use a fixed transmit IF |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
N9WOS wrote:
You can either get kit equipment for receiving or transmitting, which is widely available on line. Or you can design and build your own. Maybe I should clarify one of my statements before someone calls me stupid. I mean easily modifiable equipment is widely available online. It isn't sold for Lowfer operation. Most heterodyne and direct conversion based short wave, receiving kits can be modified over to the LF band from 160 to 190kc On a 455kc heterodyne receiver, push the local oscillator down to 615 to 645 kc, and put a band pass network on the input peaked to the lowfer band, and you are done. Same thing can be done for SSB transmitter kits that use a fixed transmit IF Only thing is, such low power xmitters, if designed and tuned to a "quiet" portion of the mw band allows anyone with a standard am radio to tune into and participate in ... Rip apart any old transistor radio and you have the necessary parts for the xmitter ... VLF receivers can be a tad bit expensive ... however, most am radios would easily be modified to VLF ... the patience of the elmer would be the only resource in question. Regards, JS |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
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Hash: SHA1 In . com writes: Paul, Its my opinion, the fact that these childrens' homes are on Navajo Land is legally irrelevant. I agree. I was just rebutting the bad advice given here that you should try to focus on legal loopholes or otherwise "stretch" the law in some way. Especially when that advice is based on an incomplete or inexpert knowledge of the law, whose misunderstanding could have expensive consequences. I know that hams in general are an honorable lot, and as a whole would not attempt to think or act that way. I'm glad that we are thinking along the same lines. Which is one of the reasons that I believed that you were sincere, and a licensed amateur radio operator. From what I understand, Native territories are jurisdictions having roughly equal standing to the states, but just like states are still subject to the Constitution and to Acts of Congress, such as the one authorizing the FCC and parts 15 and 97. Treaties with Native American tribes, and resulting laws and inter-jurisdictional agreements bear out that viewpoint, according to the expert that I consulted, and quoted in my previous post. So, the one remaining question would appear to be your original one, which was where does Part 15 leave off and Part 97 begin? I think that the ARRL TIS site that I linked previously is a good place to start. I invite everyone to consider the excellent advice offered at that site, including links to FCC documents, independent of prejudicial dislike of the involved sources or personalities. As for using a pseudonym, I use that rather than my name or call for obvious reasons of personal safety for myself and my family. That's too bad that Usenet has degraded to the point that we actually fear for the safety of ourselves and our families when we participate here, and merely state our intentions to operate lawfully, and not tolerate unlawful behavior. I'm honestly surprised that these are controversial viewpoints in some quarters. Personally, in nearly 17 years of participating on-line, I've never felt the need to use a pseudonym, or feared for my safety. However, I respect the reasonable personal choices of others in this regard. - -- 73, Paul W. Schleck, K3FU http://www.novia.net/~pschleck/ Finger for PGP Public Key -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (SunOS) iD8DBQFFu8Cy6Pj0az779o4RAmvfAJ43WI9vMFjgeqA8+TOb/qWjmltMrQCgg5X1 0qp7+liEHUDgsygkj0fuRx4= =Q/nQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
Paul W. Schleck wrote:
... Personally, in nearly 17 years of participating on-line, I've never felt the need to use a pseudonym, or feared for my safety. However, I respect the reasonable personal choices of others in this regard. - -- 73, Paul W. Schleck, K3FU http://www.novia.net/~pschleck/ Finger for PGP Public Key Just goes to show ya, the world is still left with a lot of people who are of a good nature and would not wish harm on anyone ... Regards, JS |
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