"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
...
On 6/20/2014 1:32 PM, Brian Reay wrote:
The quality achievable is far higher that you can
get with manual assembly- once the process is right.

Robotic soldering irons are NOT "manual assembly".


Stuckle v Reay, or Reay v Stuckle?

We're used to Reay over here picking a fight with anybody
over some trivial point of pedantry, so is Stuckle the same over there?

Has Tweedledum met his match in Tweedledumber?

On 6/20/2014 1:51 PM, gareth wrote:
"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
...
On 6/20/2014 1:32 PM, Brian Reay wrote:
The quality achievable is far higher that you can
get with manual assembly- once the process is right.

Robotic soldering irons are NOT "manual assembly".


Stuckle v Reay, or Reay v Stuckle?

We're used to Reay over here picking a fight with anybody
over some trivial point of pedantry, so is Stuckle the same over there?

Has Tweedledum met his match in Tweedledumber?



Troll...

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle

==================

On 6/20/2014 3:12 PM, Brian Reay wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 6/20/2014 1:32 PM, Brian Reay wrote:
Percy Picacity wrote:
On 2014-06-20 11:02:44 +0000, Jerry Stuckle said:

On 6/20/2014 3:54 AM, Brian Reay wrote:
Michael Black wrote:
I seem to recall from early articles about surface mount the suggestion
of using a dab of flux to hold the component in place. It was only to
hold it until you actually had something soldered.
That said, I really think a good magnifiying glass or microscope makes
sense. I was trying to figure out something, and got out the jeweller's
loupe, and it's amazing how much bigger everything is. That's not going
to work for soldering, but getting good magnification that will stand on
its own is bound to help a lot. And good lighting. Looking at that board
with the loupe almost makes the idea of soldering surface mount within
my capability.
Michael,
For SMD projects, rather than repairs, you can use a domestic oven to
solder the boards. Ideally, get a small table top model (the type of thing
student or caravaners use) but I did a test run in a full sized kitchen
one. The key thing is to be able to get to 230C or so at least.
You need to plot a graph of the way the oven temp rises using a
thermocouple (I borrowed one but they are cheap enough to buy). Basically
you put the board it with all the components held in place by solder paste.
Set the temp to about 200C and watch as it rises. When it gets to 100, turn
oven off for 3 min, this is known as drying time and is to drive the
solvent from the solder paste, them set temp to 250 or as high as you can
if lower. Now watch carefully, as soon as the solder paste melts and flows
to make the joints, turn off the oven and open the door.
I've tried this a couple of times and the results are surprisingly good. No
dry joints, no moved components.
The graph will help you predict when things are about to 'happen' and the
thermocouple is essential if your oven temp. gauge isn't accurate.
Brian,
I hadn't heard of using a domestic oven like this. It sounds like an
interesting idea. But wouldn't it be a bit hard on the components? I
wouldn't think many would like being heated his hot.
The commercial assembly lines I've seen use robot soldering irons
instead of heating the entire board.

I believe stencilling on solder paste, robot placement of components, and
melting the whole board in a reflow-like process with an accurately
controlled temperature vs. time profile is pretty standard for
complicated multilayer boards nowadays.


It is, and has been for some years, in fact decades, even in relatively
small batch production. The quality achievable is far higher that you can
get with manual assembly- once the process is right. Sometimes things like
edge connectors are pressed into holes which have been left solder free on
purpose. The plated through holes are designed to 'cold weld' (like a
crimp) when the connector is pressed home. It isn't soldered. This is
common on COTS boards used in military kit and custom boards in the same
LRUs. It is a very reliable technique.


Robotic soldering irons are NOT "manual assembly".


I wasn't suggesting they were.


Then I apologize. I completely misunderstood your post.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...

No problem, it is easy to go of track in a thread. Please ignore the abuse
from our resident troll, he has nothing better to do.

What was that, that you said over the past week, about your enjoying
winding people up?

Aah, here it is

-----ooooo-----
From: Brian Reay
Subject: Conducive to gentlemanly conduct?
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2014 07:00:06 +0000 (UTC)
Message-ID:


It is bad manners to land someone else's fish.

There was a lot of potential in this one ;-)


-----ooooo-----

And just to show you haven't changed your defective personality, here
is another from 10 years ago...

-----ooooo-----
From: "Brian Reay"
Subject: What's wrong with M3s?
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 17:30:51 -0000
Message-ID:

The last one rather proves you are paranoid- did I say I was referring to
you?

Like shooting rats in a barrel.

I'm not going to be convinced I haven't seen what I have seen.

You really need to get out more. Try visiting some assembly plants in
person, for instance - instead of relying on hearsay.


Of course the converse is also true, I have been to many assembly lines
and have never seen robotic soldering used. Pick and place machines by
the dozen but never robotic soldering. Hand soldering yes, wire bonding
yes, wave soldering yes, reflow soldering yes, but never robotic
soldering machines.

So I can only go on what I have seen and not on hearsay!!

Jeff

At Fri, 20 Jun 2014 07:02:44 -0400, Jerry Stuckle rearranged some
electrons to write:

On 6/20/2014 3:54 AM, Brian Reay wrote:
Michael Black wrote:


I seem to recall from early articles about surface mount the
suggestion of using a dab of flux to hold the component in place. It
was only to hold it until you actually had something soldered.

That said, I really think a good magnifiying glass or microscope makes
sense. I was trying to figure out something, and got out the
jeweller's loupe, and it's amazing how much bigger everything is.
That's not going to work for soldering, but getting good magnification
that will stand on its own is bound to help a lot. And good lighting.
Looking at that board with the loupe almost makes the idea of
soldering surface mount within my capability.

Michael,

For SMD projects, rather than repairs, you can use a domestic oven to
solder the boards. Ideally, get a small table top model (the type of
thing student or caravaners use) but I did a test run in a full sized
kitchen one. The key thing is to be able to get to 230C or so at least.

You need to plot a graph of the way the oven temp rises using a
thermocouple (I borrowed one but they are cheap enough to buy).
Basically you put the board it with all the components held in place by
solder paste.
Set the temp to about 200C and watch as it rises. When it gets to 100,
turn oven off for 3 min, this is known as drying time and is to drive
the solvent from the solder paste, them set temp to 250 or as high as
you can if lower. Now watch carefully, as soon as the solder paste
melts and flows to make the joints, turn off the oven and open the
door.

I've tried this a couple of times and the results are surprisingly
good. No dry joints, no moved components.

The graph will help you predict when things are about to 'happen' and
the thermocouple is essential if your oven temp. gauge isn't accurate.


Brian,

I hadn't heard of using a domestic oven like this. It sounds like an
interesting idea. But wouldn't it be a bit hard on the components? I
wouldn't think many would like being heated his hot.

The commercial assembly lines I've seen use robot soldering irons
instead of heating the entire board.

I guess you haven't seen many commercial assembly lines then.

SMD assembly lines use reflow ovens. The temperature profile is designed
to preheat the boards as they move through and get the solder above the
liquidus temperature for a few seconds.

SMD components are designed to withstand a reflow cycle.

On 6/21/2014 5:03 AM, Jeff wrote:

I'm not going to be convinced I haven't seen what I have seen.

You really need to get out more. Try visiting some assembly plants in
person, for instance - instead of relying on hearsay.


Of course the converse is also true, I have been to many assembly lines
and have never seen robotic soldering used. Pick and place machines by
the dozen but never robotic soldering. Hand soldering yes, wire bonding
yes, wave soldering yes, reflow soldering yes, but never robotic
soldering machines.

So I can only go on what I have seen and not on hearsay!!

Jeff

Actually, you have just shown you've never seen ANY assembly line.

But we all know you're a lying troll anyway, so that's no surprise.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

On 6/21/2014 6:09 AM, David wrote:
At Fri, 20 Jun 2014 07:02:44 -0400, Jerry Stuckle rearranged some
electrons to write:

On 6/20/2014 3:54 AM, Brian Reay wrote:
Michael Black wrote:


I seem to recall from early articles about surface mount the
suggestion of using a dab of flux to hold the component in place. It
was only to hold it until you actually had something soldered.

That said, I really think a good magnifiying glass or microscope makes
sense. I was trying to figure out something, and got out the
jeweller's loupe, and it's amazing how much bigger everything is.
That's not going to work for soldering, but getting good magnification
that will stand on its own is bound to help a lot. And good lighting.
Looking at that board with the loupe almost makes the idea of
soldering surface mount within my capability.

Michael,

For SMD projects, rather than repairs, you can use a domestic oven to
solder the boards. Ideally, get a small table top model (the type of
thing student or caravaners use) but I did a test run in a full sized
kitchen one. The key thing is to be able to get to 230C or so at least.

You need to plot a graph of the way the oven temp rises using a
thermocouple (I borrowed one but they are cheap enough to buy).
Basically you put the board it with all the components held in place by
solder paste.
Set the temp to about 200C and watch as it rises. When it gets to 100,
turn oven off for 3 min, this is known as drying time and is to drive
the solvent from the solder paste, them set temp to 250 or as high as
you can if lower. Now watch carefully, as soon as the solder paste
melts and flows to make the joints, turn off the oven and open the
door.

I've tried this a couple of times and the results are surprisingly
good. No dry joints, no moved components.

The graph will help you predict when things are about to 'happen' and
the thermocouple is essential if your oven temp. gauge isn't accurate.


Brian,

I hadn't heard of using a domestic oven like this. It sounds like an
interesting idea. But wouldn't it be a bit hard on the components? I
wouldn't think many would like being heated his hot.

The commercial assembly lines I've seen use robot soldering irons
instead of heating the entire board.

I guess you haven't seen many commercial assembly lines then.


You can't read, can you?

SMD assembly lines use reflow ovens. The temperature profile is designed
to preheat the boards as they move through and get the solder above the
liquidus temperature for a few seconds.

SMD components are designed to withstand a reflow cycle.


See, that's the difference between you and me. You think there's only
one way things are done. I know there are many ways, and acknowledge that.

So just stop your trolling.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle

==================

On 21/06/2014 13:18, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 6/21/2014 5:03 AM, Jeff wrote:

I'm not going to be convinced I haven't seen what I have seen.

You really need to get out more. Try visiting some assembly plants in
person, for instance - instead of relying on hearsay.


Of course the converse is also true, I have been to many assembly lines
and have never seen robotic soldering used. Pick and place machines by
the dozen but never robotic soldering. Hand soldering yes, wire bonding
yes, wave soldering yes, reflow soldering yes, but never robotic
soldering machines.

So I can only go on what I have seen and not on hearsay!!

Jeff

Actually, you have just shown you've never seen ANY assembly line.

But we all know you're a lying troll anyway, so that's no surprise.


And that response show you to be nothing more than an arrogant
loud-mouthed self-opinionated bully who can't stand being corrected; but
that is par for the course looking at your posting record; which
consists mainly of calling anyone who dares to disagree with you a troll.

Jeff

On 6/22/2014 4:36 AM, Jeff wrote:
On 21/06/2014 13:18, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 6/21/2014 5:03 AM, Jeff wrote:

I'm not going to be convinced I haven't seen what I have seen.

You really need to get out more. Try visiting some assembly plants in
person, for instance - instead of relying on hearsay.


Of course the converse is also true, I have been to many assembly lines
and have never seen robotic soldering used. Pick and place machines by
the dozen but never robotic soldering. Hand soldering yes, wire bonding
yes, wave soldering yes, reflow soldering yes, but never robotic
soldering machines.

So I can only go on what I have seen and not on hearsay!!

Jeff

Actually, you have just shown you've never seen ANY assembly line.

But we all know you're a lying troll anyway, so that's no surprise.


And that response show you to be nothing more than an arrogant
loud-mouthed self-opinionated bully who can't stand being corrected; but
that is par for the course looking at your posting record; which
consists mainly of calling anyone who dares to disagree with you a troll.

Jeff

A typical response from the lying troll when he's identified. You are
well known as one in such and other newsgroups.


--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle

==================