Frank Gilliland ) writes:

... as I write this it occured to me that it might be
easier for Harry to mix the VCO signal down to a frequency where
the average logic IC can work. You don't have to find a prescaler,
and the design's frequency steps won't be limited by the division of
that prescaler. There are various mixer schemes that will result
in the needed frequency. There may be reasons for not doing it this
way, but it may not even be explored because Harry hasn't given this
alternative any thought.

Michael VE2BVW

Hello Michael. Down-conversion has been considered, but quickly dismissed.
The sysnthesiser I need is a tool to be used for a wide variety of projects:
projects that include modulation.

Down conversion of frequency preserves any applied modulation. The prescaler
and subsequent dividers filter out modulation so that a true phase lock may
be achieved. This is especially true with WBFM where the total divide rate
must be greater than 10000 to achieve a phase lock. NBFM, with a minimum
modulating freq of, say, 250Hz, still needs a divider to divide by more than
60.

Down conversion could make a simple synth if modulation were never to be
used. I intend the project area to be both TX + RX, and to become a
"building block" for a variety of circuits.

Anyway, I have received a lot of response. My original question was "is
there a good cheap source of prescalers" (but in a long-winded way) and this
I have received. Many thanks to you and all who have given me positive
suggestions. Unfortunately I will not be melting down horses hooves to make
the glue to bond the home-beaten copper to a board to make the PCB. The only
thin board available would be ready-made plywood, and that would not be
"homebrew" ;-)

BR Harry

Frank Gilliland wrote:

The lower level is trying to force someone to do it your way.

I can think of a lower level -- saying that I'm trying to "force" anybody to do
anything simply by expressing my opinions.

You are deeply mistaken if you believe that "simply expressing my
opinions" exerts no force on other people.

Earlier, you mentioned someone who was proud of having repainted the
front panel of an old communications receiver. That person may not yet
have the knowledge or the confidence to tinker much inside the case...
but with help and encouragement, they will.

Now what kind of encouragement is it, if someone more experienced comes
along and dismisses their beginning efforts as "not homebrew"? Certainly
you will have a private opinion - but will opening your mouth make them
more likely to stay with electronics and learn something... or less?

More than 40 years ago, I actually *was* that beginner who started
"electronics" with a paintbrush. I've only just realised how lucky I was
to have escaped a put-down, right when it could have done the most
damage.


--
73 from Ian G3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB)
Editor, 'The VHF/UHF DX Book'
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek

Frank Gilliland wrote:

The lower level is trying to force someone to do it your way.

I can think of a lower level -- saying that I'm trying to "force" anybody to do
anything simply by expressing my opinions.

You are deeply mistaken if you believe that "simply expressing my
opinions" exerts no force on other people.

Earlier, you mentioned someone who was proud of having repainted the
front panel of an old communications receiver. That person may not yet
have the knowledge or the confidence to tinker much inside the case...
but with help and encouragement, they will.

Now what kind of encouragement is it, if someone more experienced comes
along and dismisses their beginning efforts as "not homebrew"? Certainly
you will have a private opinion - but will opening your mouth make them
more likely to stay with electronics and learn something... or less?

More than 40 years ago, I actually *was* that beginner who started
"electronics" with a paintbrush. I've only just realised how lucky I was
to have escaped a put-down, right when it could have done the most
damage.


--
73 from Ian G3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB)
Editor, 'The VHF/UHF DX Book'
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek

Well you've managed to hit my kill file. Good riddance
to your anti-social pap.

Bruce Raymond



"Frank Gilliland" wrote in message
...
In , "Harry - SM0VPO"
wrote:

Frank Gilliland ) writes:

... as I write this it occured to me that it might be
easier for Harry to mix the VCO signal down to a frequency where
the average logic IC can work. You don't have to find a prescaler,
and the design's frequency steps won't be limited by the division of
that prescaler. There are various mixer schemes that will result
in the needed frequency. There may be reasons for not doing it this
way, but it may not even be explored because Harry hasn't given this
alternative any thought.

Michael VE2BVW

Hello Michael. Down-conversion has been considered, but quickly
dismissed.
The sysnthesiser I need is a tool to be used for a wide variety of
projects:
projects that include modulation.

Down conversion of frequency preserves any applied modulation. The
prescaler
and subsequent dividers filter out modulation so that a true phase lock
may
be achieved.

WHAT? Even -with- modulation all you need is a low-pass filter on the
output of
the phase detector, which is what you have to do anyway. The phase lock is
"true" whether you have modulation or not, it just takes a couple extra
milliseconds to lock. If the VCO drifts faster than that then you have
some
other problems that have a higher priority than a prescaler.

BTW, if you don't have any transistors in Sweden that will work at 100
MHz, what
are you using for your VCO?

This is especially true with WBFM where the total divide rate
must be greater than 10000 to achieve a phase lock. NBFM, with a minimum
modulating freq of, say, 250Hz, still needs a divider to divide by more
than
60.

Down conversion could make a simple synth if modulation were never to be
used.

It makes a simple synth even -with- modulation.

I intend the project area to be both TX + RX, and to become a
"building block" for a variety of circuits.

Anyway, I have received a lot of response. My original question was "is
there a good cheap source of prescalers" (but in a long-winded way) and
this
I have received. Many thanks to you and all who have given me positive
suggestions. Unfortunately I will not be melting down horses hooves to
make
the glue to bond the home-beaten copper to a board to make the PCB. The
only
thin board available would be ready-made plywood, and that would not be
"homebrew" ;-)

From what you say about the availability of materials in Sweden, do you
need any
help finding some quality plywood (not obsolete, of course), and maybe an
inexpensive source? You might try posting in alt.plywood.pirate.....





-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

Well you've managed to hit my kill file. Good riddance
to your anti-social pap.

Bruce Raymond



"Frank Gilliland" wrote in message
...
In , "Harry - SM0VPO"
wrote:

Frank Gilliland ) writes:

... as I write this it occured to me that it might be
easier for Harry to mix the VCO signal down to a frequency where
the average logic IC can work. You don't have to find a prescaler,
and the design's frequency steps won't be limited by the division of
that prescaler. There are various mixer schemes that will result
in the needed frequency. There may be reasons for not doing it this
way, but it may not even be explored because Harry hasn't given this
alternative any thought.

Michael VE2BVW

Hello Michael. Down-conversion has been considered, but quickly
dismissed.
The sysnthesiser I need is a tool to be used for a wide variety of
projects:
projects that include modulation.

Down conversion of frequency preserves any applied modulation. The
prescaler
and subsequent dividers filter out modulation so that a true phase lock
may
be achieved.

WHAT? Even -with- modulation all you need is a low-pass filter on the
output of
the phase detector, which is what you have to do anyway. The phase lock is
"true" whether you have modulation or not, it just takes a couple extra
milliseconds to lock. If the VCO drifts faster than that then you have
some
other problems that have a higher priority than a prescaler.

BTW, if you don't have any transistors in Sweden that will work at 100
MHz, what
are you using for your VCO?

This is especially true with WBFM where the total divide rate
must be greater than 10000 to achieve a phase lock. NBFM, with a minimum
modulating freq of, say, 250Hz, still needs a divider to divide by more
than
60.

Down conversion could make a simple synth if modulation were never to be
used.

It makes a simple synth even -with- modulation.

I intend the project area to be both TX + RX, and to become a
"building block" for a variety of circuits.

Anyway, I have received a lot of response. My original question was "is
there a good cheap source of prescalers" (but in a long-winded way) and
this
I have received. Many thanks to you and all who have given me positive
suggestions. Unfortunately I will not be melting down horses hooves to
make
the glue to bond the home-beaten copper to a board to make the PCB. The
only
thin board available would be ready-made plywood, and that would not be
"homebrew" ;-)

From what you say about the availability of materials in Sweden, do you
need any
help finding some quality plywood (not obsolete, of course), and maybe an
inexpensive source? You might try posting in alt.plywood.pirate.....





-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

In , "Ian White, G3SEK"
wrote:

Frank Gilliland wrote:

The lower level is trying to force someone to do it your way.

I can think of a lower level -- saying that I'm trying to "force" anybody to do
anything simply by expressing my opinions.

You are deeply mistaken if you believe that "simply expressing my
opinions" exerts no force on other people.

Let me clue you in he I can't force you to read my posts. I can't prevent you
from tossing me in your killfile. And while I -can- write a post that offers a
different perspective on an issue, I -can't- make up your mind for you. And in
case you didn't notice, a newsgroup is a temporal medium -- i.e, if anyone feels
that I am forcing them to do anything it's because they have a very weak mind.

Earlier, you mentioned someone who was proud of having repainted the
front panel of an old communications receiver. That person may not yet
have the knowledge or the confidence to tinker much inside the case...
but with help and encouragement, they will.

Now what kind of encouragement is it, if someone more experienced comes
along and dismisses their beginning efforts as "not homebrew"? Certainly
you will have a private opinion - but will opening your mouth make them
more likely to stay with electronics and learn something... or less?

More than 40 years ago, I actually *was* that beginner who started
"electronics" with a paintbrush. I've only just realised how lucky I was
to have escaped a put-down, right when it could have done the most
damage.

I'm glad to hear that your fragile ego has not been disturbed by people like me
who are not afraid to tell it like it is. I may take an in-your-face approach,
but that happens to be my personality -- I don't walk on eggshells, I don't play
pop-psychology, and I don't coddle someone for doing mediocre work when I know
they can do better. If painting was all you could accomplish 40 years ago,
consider yourself proud to have learned something more about electronics since
then. But now that you have more knowledge and experience, do you still think
that homebrew electronics includes doing nothing more than painting the front
panel of a radio built by someone else? If so, then we have widely different
perspectives on the subject.

I think that Harry is selling himself and his readers short by not even
considering the use of discrete transistors (claiming that he can't find any
that are fast enough but still hasn't said what he plans to use for a VCO). I
know that he is certainly capable of making a high-speed flip-flop that will
work for his application, and probably better than any prescaler chip he can
find. Whatever he chooses, it's his choice to make. But it's also MY choice to
speak up if I think that he is ignoring a better alternative. And also to point
out that for a very public ham such as him to ask for help in a pirate newsgroup
probably isn't the best way to further the legitimate radio hobbies.

Now, how am I "forcing" anyone to do anything?





-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

In , "Ian White, G3SEK"
wrote:

Frank Gilliland wrote:

The lower level is trying to force someone to do it your way.

I can think of a lower level -- saying that I'm trying to "force" anybody to do
anything simply by expressing my opinions.

You are deeply mistaken if you believe that "simply expressing my
opinions" exerts no force on other people.

Let me clue you in he I can't force you to read my posts. I can't prevent you
from tossing me in your killfile. And while I -can- write a post that offers a
different perspective on an issue, I -can't- make up your mind for you. And in
case you didn't notice, a newsgroup is a temporal medium -- i.e, if anyone feels
that I am forcing them to do anything it's because they have a very weak mind.

Earlier, you mentioned someone who was proud of having repainted the
front panel of an old communications receiver. That person may not yet
have the knowledge or the confidence to tinker much inside the case...
but with help and encouragement, they will.

Now what kind of encouragement is it, if someone more experienced comes
along and dismisses their beginning efforts as "not homebrew"? Certainly
you will have a private opinion - but will opening your mouth make them
more likely to stay with electronics and learn something... or less?

More than 40 years ago, I actually *was* that beginner who started
"electronics" with a paintbrush. I've only just realised how lucky I was
to have escaped a put-down, right when it could have done the most
damage.

I'm glad to hear that your fragile ego has not been disturbed by people like me
who are not afraid to tell it like it is. I may take an in-your-face approach,
but that happens to be my personality -- I don't walk on eggshells, I don't play
pop-psychology, and I don't coddle someone for doing mediocre work when I know
they can do better. If painting was all you could accomplish 40 years ago,
consider yourself proud to have learned something more about electronics since
then. But now that you have more knowledge and experience, do you still think
that homebrew electronics includes doing nothing more than painting the front
panel of a radio built by someone else? If so, then we have widely different
perspectives on the subject.

I think that Harry is selling himself and his readers short by not even
considering the use of discrete transistors (claiming that he can't find any
that are fast enough but still hasn't said what he plans to use for a VCO). I
know that he is certainly capable of making a high-speed flip-flop that will
work for his application, and probably better than any prescaler chip he can
find. Whatever he chooses, it's his choice to make. But it's also MY choice to
speak up if I think that he is ignoring a better alternative. And also to point
out that for a very public ham such as him to ask for help in a pirate newsgroup
probably isn't the best way to further the legitimate radio hobbies.

Now, how am I "forcing" anyone to do anything?





-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

In , (Nick
Kennedy) wrote:

Geez, brilliant response Frank. A guy needs help finding a prescaler
and you tell him he just needs a bucket full of transistors.

That's all a chip is anyway. It's just a really small bucket.

Why not
vacuum tubes or mechanical counters?

The vacuum tube flip-flop is a neat idea, and I have that on the list for this
winter. I don't think a mechanical counter will work at 100 MHz.

But maybe -you- can help Harry out in another way: He says that he can't find
any transistors that will work above 100 MHz, yet he is building a synth to work
at least that high. So what should he use for the VCO? A vacuum tube? Or a
really, really small tuning fork?

Here's some help for your next project Frank. Just get a bunch of
wire and solder and electronic parts and stuff and hook it all
together. Like freshman lab, remember? But from your communications
style, I suspect you're still in high school.

Well, when EWU handed me my diploma I assumed they had checked my high school
records.... but hey, you never know, do ya?





-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

In , (Nick
Kennedy) wrote:

Geez, brilliant response Frank. A guy needs help finding a prescaler
and you tell him he just needs a bucket full of transistors.

That's all a chip is anyway. It's just a really small bucket.

Why not
vacuum tubes or mechanical counters?

The vacuum tube flip-flop is a neat idea, and I have that on the list for this
winter. I don't think a mechanical counter will work at 100 MHz.

But maybe -you- can help Harry out in another way: He says that he can't find
any transistors that will work above 100 MHz, yet he is building a synth to work
at least that high. So what should he use for the VCO? A vacuum tube? Or a
really, really small tuning fork?

Here's some help for your next project Frank. Just get a bunch of
wire and solder and electronic parts and stuff and hook it all
together. Like freshman lab, remember? But from your communications
style, I suspect you're still in high school.

Well, when EWU handed me my diploma I assumed they had checked my high school
records.... but hey, you never know, do ya?





-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

In om, "Bruce Raymond"
wrote:

Well you've managed to hit my kill file. Good riddance
to your anti-social pap.

Gee, I'm hurt. Maybe someday in the future, when you sift through the archives
and read this thread again, you might do so with an open technical mind. Oh, and
maybe a behavioral therapist holding your hand and to provide counseling for the
trauma of learning that not everyone behaves according to the edicts of some
middle-aged newspaper columnist.





-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----