On a sunny day (Sat, 17 Apr 2004 04:14:24 GMT) it happened
wrote in :



Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Fri, 16 Apr 2004 06:40:16 GMT) it happened
wrote in :

ou also have to take into account
the degradation of the system capacity over time.
That would be 80% of capacity I think.
And yes, you could take the kWh price of 25 years ago,
that of today, and draw a line, it will point up,
extrapolate to + 25 years from now ,and you have a value.
The other thing that will help is the inflation, you
can roughly say that money halves in value every 10 years.
This has 2 effects, now, if you did have a loan for the solar
cells, and you pay 2% of your income, in 10 years this will be
only .5 % and in 25 years the amount you have to pay will look
ridiculously low.
From this we can see that borrowing is not a bad idea perhaps.
Also that still leaves you with all the cash you can spend on
other things now.
JP

Your figures are off,
Of cause they are, it was late...

and are unrealistic.
Not so sure about that, having lives to much more then 50
You said money
halves in value in ten years, yet you mention 2% today
and .5% ten years from now, a factor of 4, not 2.
And using the numbers: 2% of one's salary to pay off a $17K
mortgage over 25 years works out to an annual salary of
$72,000. Most people making that kind of money are at
the high end already, and won't see the same kind of
percentage increases that people starting out will see.
Well, the director of ING bank gave himself a 40% raise
form 100000 to 140000 Euro (multyiply a bit for dolars)
this year, IN ONE YEAR, because he said he really deserved it.


It is unrealistic to think that, on average, people making
$72,000 today will be making $144,000 ten years from now.
True, more like 310000


If they are already making $72,000, they are also likely
older, (maybe 60 as a guess) and won't live to see the
payback, if it does come.
And usually they have option too.....

What is needed to make solar economically viable for the
masses is a drastic reduction in the cost of solar - or
a huge price increase in the cost of utility provided
power.
That last thing will never happen.
I agree the solar cells need to be mass-produced and then
will become cheaper.
Recent research now found a way to double the efficiency to
35 % or more, but these are not in production.

That does not mean that there are no individual
cases today where solar is attractive economically, nor
does it encompass those who can't connect to the grid.
Here in teh Netherlands where i am, you could get the
solar installation almost for free, because of government grants,
so many people did it that the gov ran out of the allocated budget,
and is now drastically reducing subsidizing solar power.

But it's a non-starter for better than 99 percent of the
people who can connect to the grid. The number of
people who are grid connected and are economically ahead
with solar is exceedingly small. Even Solar Guppy, who
clearly has expertise in this area, posts a 16+ year
payback period - and that's without considering mortgage,
degradation, maintenance etc. over time.
If you get it 4 free, payback starts immediatly.
Problem is that in teh old electricity meters the meter
would run backards, and you got a lot for a kWh into the grid.
Now the power companies fixed that by using electronic meters that
will not run backwars.. clever!, but you can become a 'certified
electricity supplier' or something (I am not, just what I did read),
for 250 Euro or so a year, and then ge t7 Eurocent for a kWh so no
good deal, only costs money.
The solution is IMO to ge tsome large lead acid batteries, keep thse
warm somehow (does not work if -10 C), and use those to cover night
and non-sunny times.
And disconnect from the grid altogether.
For sci.electronics.design, 25 old car batteries gives 300 V DC at
100 A/h, big H bridge and make a nice 50 Hz sine at 240 V..
Maybe I am dreaming.
Unfortunatly there is not a lot of sun here...



Investing in solar today, with the concept of breaking
even 34 years down the road, is an asinine financial
move. Betting on an earlier computed break-even point due
Perhaps not.

to rising energy cost is damn near a sure thing - but
still an asinine financial move, unless you have some
idea of when the break-even point will be. In most
cases, when you run the numbers, you'd be better off
playing black jack at the casino. At least there you have
a close to 50% chance of winning. For most people who run
the numbers, solar is clearly a no win situation.
I was for getting some RTGs... but the radiation....
These could both serve for heating and electricity generation
for 25 years.

I wish proponents of solar would be more like Solar Guppy,
or the guy in california at the site I posted. They lay
it out, based on actual measurements. The guy in California
is WAY ahead of the game, because it would have cost him
about $90,000 to connect to the grid. He itemizes his
entire system - solar, wind, hydro - with the price of
everything. Solar told us his system cost, capability
and price per utility generated kWh, and provides good
info on his site. If you haven't been to their sites,
I recommend taking a look.
I have been to the Guppy site...
I like real data.
Good stuff.
JP

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 23:12:09 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

[snip]
That does not mean that there are no individual
cases today where solar is attractive economically, nor
does it encompass those who can't connect to the grid.
Here in teh Netherlands where i am, you could get the
solar installation almost for free, because of government grants,
so many people did it that the gov ran out of the allocated budget,
and is now drastically reducing subsidizing solar power.

Arizona is presently *increasing* their tax credits for solar.


But it's a non-starter for better than 99 percent of the
people who can connect to the grid. The number of
people who are grid connected and are economically ahead
with solar is exceedingly small. Even Solar Guppy, who
clearly has expertise in this area, posts a 16+ year
payback period - and that's without considering mortgage,
degradation, maintenance etc. over time.
If you get it 4 free, payback starts immediatly.
Problem is that in teh old electricity meters the meter
would run backards, and you got a lot for a kWh into the grid.
Now the power companies fixed that by using electronic meters that
will not run backwars.. clever!, but you can become a 'certified
electricity supplier' or something (I am not, just what I did read),
for 250 Euro or so a year, and then ge t7 Eurocent for a kWh so no
good deal, only costs money.

[snip]

Sourcing INTO the power grid is also supported in Arizona. Apparently
there are a few customers here who produce more than their own
consumption and get PAID every month. (Not difficult at all if you
own at least an acre of property.)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 23:12:09 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

[snip]
That does not mean that there are no individual
cases today where solar is attractive economically, nor
does it encompass those who can't connect to the grid.
Here in teh Netherlands where i am, you could get the
solar installation almost for free, because of government grants,
so many people did it that the gov ran out of the allocated budget,
and is now drastically reducing subsidizing solar power.

Arizona is presently *increasing* their tax credits for solar.


But it's a non-starter for better than 99 percent of the
people who can connect to the grid. The number of
people who are grid connected and are economically ahead
with solar is exceedingly small. Even Solar Guppy, who
clearly has expertise in this area, posts a 16+ year
payback period - and that's without considering mortgage,
degradation, maintenance etc. over time.
If you get it 4 free, payback starts immediatly.
Problem is that in teh old electricity meters the meter
would run backards, and you got a lot for a kWh into the grid.
Now the power companies fixed that by using electronic meters that
will not run backwars.. clever!, but you can become a 'certified
electricity supplier' or something (I am not, just what I did read),
for 250 Euro or so a year, and then ge t7 Eurocent for a kWh so no
good deal, only costs money.

[snip]

Sourcing INTO the power grid is also supported in Arizona. Apparently
there are a few customers here who produce more than their own
consumption and get PAID every month. (Not difficult at all if you
own at least an acre of property.)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

You've asked for a module that puts out 6-9 volts @ 100 mA. A more
accurate description of a solar panel would be that it puts out 100 mA
at 6-9 volts.

Also the currewnt outputdepends somewhat on the latitude you're at. You
won't get all that current at the arctic circle.
=============================
As a rule of thumb , a starting angle (from horizontal) for setting up a
solar panel is Degrees Latitude plus 10 degrees.
My QTH is at 57 degrees north ,so I have initially set up the 2 panels
(each fitted at ground level on an adjustable hinged wooden frame) at
approx 67 degrees. , pointing due south ,which is about optimal (not having
a tracking system)
I use 2 make: Unisolar ,64Wp panels which have a non or low reflecting
surface made of a polymer ( no glass).
Rated output per panel 3.88 Amperes at 16.5 volts ; short circuit current
6.3 Amperes.
Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V , voltage limited by a home
made shunt controller .
System includes a 150 Watts wind generator , to support system during windy
(and usually sunless) periods
Purpose : Amateur Radio station with peripherals including 12 V halogen
bulbs desk lighting.

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH

You've asked for a module that puts out 6-9 volts @ 100 mA. A more
accurate description of a solar panel would be that it puts out 100 mA
at 6-9 volts.

Also the currewnt outputdepends somewhat on the latitude you're at. You
won't get all that current at the arctic circle.
=============================
As a rule of thumb , a starting angle (from horizontal) for setting up a
solar panel is Degrees Latitude plus 10 degrees.
My QTH is at 57 degrees north ,so I have initially set up the 2 panels
(each fitted at ground level on an adjustable hinged wooden frame) at
approx 67 degrees. , pointing due south ,which is about optimal (not having
a tracking system)
I use 2 make: Unisolar ,64Wp panels which have a non or low reflecting
surface made of a polymer ( no glass).
Rated output per panel 3.88 Amperes at 16.5 volts ; short circuit current
6.3 Amperes.
Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V , voltage limited by a home
made shunt controller .
System includes a 150 Watts wind generator , to support system during windy
(and usually sunless) periods
Purpose : Amateur Radio station with peripherals including 12 V halogen
bulbs desk lighting.

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:08:04 +0100) it happened "Newsgroups"
wrote in hQjgc.160$Jc5.69@newsfe1-win:

Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V , voltage limited by a home
made shunt controller .
System includes a 150 Watts wind generator , to support system during windy
(and usually sunless) periods
Now a wind generator would be cool, there are many windmils of huge size here,
one next to my house (100m or so), a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller ones...
It is on the coast, and it is always windy here...
How big is that thing?
JP

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:08:04 +0100) it happened "Newsgroups"
wrote in hQjgc.160$Jc5.69@newsfe1-win:

Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V , voltage limited by a home
made shunt controller .
System includes a 150 Watts wind generator , to support system during windy
(and usually sunless) periods
Now a wind generator would be cool, there are many windmils of huge size here,
one next to my house (100m or so), a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller ones...
It is on the coast, and it is always windy here...
How big is that thing?
JP

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 00:35:15 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:08:04 +0100) it happened "Newsgroups"
wrote in hQjgc.160$Jc5.69@newsfe1-win:

Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V , voltage limited by a home
made shunt controller .
System includes a 150 Watts wind generator , to support system during windy
(and usually sunless) periods
Now a wind generator would be cool, there are many windmils of huge size here,
one next to my house (100m or so), a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller ones...
It is on the coast, and it is always windy here...
How big is that thing?
JP

Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio, California (on I10) ?

HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 00:35:15 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:08:04 +0100) it happened "Newsgroups"
wrote in hQjgc.160$Jc5.69@newsfe1-win:

Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V , voltage limited by a home
made shunt controller .
System includes a 150 Watts wind generator , to support system during windy
(and usually sunless) periods
Now a wind generator would be cool, there are many windmils of huge size here,
one next to my house (100m or so), a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller ones...
It is on the coast, and it is always windy here...
How big is that thing?
JP

Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio, California (on I10) ?

HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

"Jan Panteltje" wrote in message
...
On a sunny day (Thu, 15 Apr 2004 05:57:18 GMT) it happened
wrote in :
A guy in Florida quoted 48 years pay back time. I ran
the numbers for my home - over 40 years, and I pay 13
cents per kwh. A 2 kW system costs $15000. Assuming
an average of 8 hours per day of 2kW per hour, that
solar system would give me 16 kWh. I pay 16*.13 or
$2.08 for 16 kWh. Works out to 19+ years for payback,
if you don't count on mortgage payments for the system.
Add that in, and the cost of a $15000 system is
much worse - over 30,000 in a 25 year, 7% mortgage.
You have to take into account that the cost of a kWh from
the grid in 25 years will be a LOT higher too, if there
still is a grid during and after WW3 that is.
JP

I don't blame you for being paranoid about WW3, if you're from Holland.
History has treated those countries poorly during the last WWs. But
then, who cares if there's a WW3? I'm more concerned about the next big
earthquake. Some scientists are predicting a big 6.something earthquake
in the Southern Calif. desert before Sept. I hope so, 'cause some of
these immigrants might consider going back to their point of
origination.