Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover" wrote:
My attitude is that rather than try to do this (and in the process lose
reliability), it's better to go supersize on the cells, add more area
and overall capacity to get you thru the cloudy days, and have a higher
capacity overall.

The argument usually goes that getting, say, 10-20% more power from a better
charge controller (one of these so-called 'maximum power point controllers')
can be cheaper (in additional expenditures) than getting 10-20% larger
panels. It's sometimes difficult to show, though, particularly on small
systems -- but MPPT controllers have been getting cheaper for awhile, now,
and I expect that eventually all but the cheapest/smallest will have this
functionality.


---Joel Kolstad

That is exactly the point, Joel. Upsizing 20% is several times more expensive
compared to providing an intelligent switcher to match to the illumination or to
adapt a panel voltage that isn't matching the storage devices. That situation
won't change unless there is a tremendous breakthrough in technology or serious
new government subsidies.

As to reliability, a switcher that is designed correctly and conservatively
should easily outlasts the cells. Even for small installations it is easy,
especially in view of the large variety of micro controllers that retail for a
few Dollars. One of these plus a few discretes and an inductor can do the trick.

Regards, Joerg.

That is exactly the point, Joel. Upsizing 20% is several times more expensive
compared to providing an intelligent switcher to match to the illumination or to
adapt a panel voltage that isn't matching the storage devices. That situation
won't change unless there is a tremendous breakthrough in technology or serious
new government subsidies.

As to reliability, a switcher that is designed correctly and conservatively
should easily outlasts the cells. Even for small installations it is easy,
especially in view of the large variety of micro controllers that retail for a
few Dollars. One of these plus a few discretes and an inductor can do the trick.

Regards, Joerg.

Joel Kolstad wrote:
Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover" wrote:

My attitude is that rather than try to do this (and in the process lose
reliability), it's better to go supersize on the cells, add more area
and overall capacity to get you thru the cloudy days, and have a higher
capacity overall.


The argument usually goes that getting, say, 10-20% more power from a better
charge controller (one of these so-called 'maximum power point controllers')
can be cheaper (in additional expenditures) than getting 10-20% larger
panels. It's sometimes difficult to show, though, particularly on small
systems -- but MPPT controllers have been getting cheaper for awhile, now,
and I expect that eventually all but the cheapest/smallest will have this
functionality.

Last nite (Tue, 9pm) I watched a prog on PBS that was about getting
people to use more renewable resources, hosted by Cameron Diaz (hot
blonde movie star), who drives a Prius. They talked about getting every
home to have a solar panel, and selling power back to the utility co.
She also said that if everyone in the U.S. drove a hybrid vehicle, we
could completely eliminate oil shipments from the middle east. Well,
I'd go out and buy a Prius, but one of the guys at work has had his new
Prius since xmas and it took him 4 months or so to get it after
submitting a $500 earnest check to several dealerships to get on their
waiting list. They say they're trying to make more of them, but I think
they really don't want the prices to fall, since they're expensive to
make. In any case I'd like more solar power, but the initial outlay is
_not_ cheap.


---Joel Kolstad

Watson A.Name \"Watt Sun - the Dark Remover\" wrote:
Last nite (Tue, 9pm) I watched a prog on PBS that was about getting
people to use more renewable resources, hosted by Cameron Diaz (hot
blonde movie star), who drives a Prius. They talked about getting every
home to have a solar panel, and selling power back to the utility co.
She also said that if everyone in the U.S. drove a hybrid vehicle, we
could completely eliminate oil shipments from the middle east. Well,
I'd go out and buy a Prius, but one of the guys at work has had his new
Prius since xmas and it took him 4 months or so to get it after
submitting a $500 earnest check to several dealerships to get on their
waiting list. They say they're trying to make more of them, but I think
they really don't want the prices to fall, since they're expensive to
make. In any case I'd like more solar power, but the initial outlay is
_not_ cheap.

While I'm all for using more renewable resources, and especially
ones that are environmentally friendly, it doesn't make sense to
cause yourself financial pain doing so. It makes sense to buy the
must fuel efficient vehicle that fits your needs but not to overspend
simply because it's a little better on the gas mileage.

That said, there are many things you can do that are quite affordable.
First, you could conserve energy. Replace old appliances with more
efficient ones, insulate your home better, weather-strip, storm windows,
compact fluorescent lights, activate the power saving on your computer,
use xeriscaping and all that lot. If you are a typical homeowners then
conservation alone could be as effective as putting up a $30,000 solar
panel setup.

Then you could buy more affordable renewable energy equipment such as
solar water heaters, air heaters, ovens, stoves and the like. You could
also change your diet to include less animal products. Raising animals
to produce food takes many times more resources (which often means
energy) as plants alone require.

There are also many alternatives to a Prius. One option would be to
get a diesel powered car and use biodiesel or get it converted to
run on straight vegetable oil. Another option is to buy an electric
car. Currently the only ones available are "city cars" which turn
out to be glorified golf carts but they are suitable for very local
driving and can sometimes work as a second car. Some folks have even
had great success with bicycles of various flavors. If you simply
must have a hybrid vehicle then a much wider selection of them should
be available within the next 10 to 15 years.

Anthony

Anthony Matonak wrote:
Watson A.Name \"Watt Sun - the Dark Remover\" wrote:

Last nite (Tue, 9pm) I watched a prog on PBS that was about getting
people to use more renewable resources, hosted by Cameron Diaz (hot
blonde movie star), who drives a Prius. They talked about getting
every home to have a solar panel, and selling power back to the
utility co. She also said that if everyone in the U.S. drove a hybrid
vehicle, we could completely eliminate oil shipments from the middle
east. Well, I'd go out and buy a Prius, but one of the guys at work
has had his new Prius since xmas and it took him 4 months or so to get
it after submitting a $500 earnest check to several dealerships to get
on their waiting list. They say they're trying to make more of them,
but I think they really don't want the prices to fall, since they're
expensive to make. In any case I'd like more solar power, but the
initial outlay is _not_ cheap.


While I'm all for using more renewable resources, and especially
ones that are environmentally friendly, it doesn't make sense to
cause yourself financial pain doing so. It makes sense to buy the
must fuel efficient vehicle that fits your needs but not to overspend
simply because it's a little better on the gas mileage.

It's not a "little" better, it more than double - 50+ MPG compared to 25!

[snip]
You could
also change your diet to include less animal products. Raising animals
to produce food takes many times more resources (which often means
energy) as plants alone require.

Right, but it's **you** (see above) that said to not cause yourself
financial pain. Well, I _try_ to do my part to eat little or no beef,
instead eat chicken. But I _have_ to pay a premium to do so, even tho
it's cheaper to bring chicken to the table, just because of supply and
demand issue. People consume less beef so the price drops below
chicken, not because it's cheaper. So I and everyone else hasto pay
extra for, helping save resources. Just what you said _didn't_make_ sense_.

There are also many alternatives to a Prius. One option would be to
get a diesel powered car and use biodiesel or get it converted to
run on straight vegetable oil. Another option is to buy an electric
car.

Again, you're asking for people to make a financial sacrifice when
buying an electric vehicle. The last I checked, it cost $46,000 to
purchase a RAV4 EV, with a good chunk of that going to the installation
of an electric charger in the owner's garage. According to you, that
financial pain 'doesn't make sense'.

If you simply
must have a hybrid vehicle then a much wider selection of them should
be available within the next 10 to 15 years.

In the next 10 to 15 years, the situation may be much, much worse. The
big worry in the near term seems to be China, with 1/5th of the world's
population, which may have a growing economy that will gobble up an ever
growing part of the world's non-renewable energy resources. In 10-15
years, it may be too late! The price of fuel in europe is already over
$5 a gallon, and we Americans are currently bitching about having to pay
over $2! Well, wait until it goes up to $3, or more! All those SUV
owners in the U.S. will be taking tbe bus to work. Time will tell!

Anthony

"Watson A.Name "Watt Sun - the Dark Remover"" wrote
in message ...
Anthony Matonak wrote:
Watson A.Name \"Watt Sun - the Dark Remover\" wrote:

Last nite (Tue, 9pm) I watched a prog on PBS that was about getting
people to use more renewable resources, hosted by Cameron Diaz (hot
blonde movie star), who drives a Prius. They talked about getting
every home to have a solar panel, and selling power back to the
utility co. She also said that if everyone in the U.S. drove a hybrid
vehicle, we could completely eliminate oil shipments from the middle
east. Well, I'd go out and buy a Prius, but one of the guys at work
has had his new Prius since xmas and it took him 4 months or so to get
it after submitting a $500 earnest check to several dealerships to get
on their waiting list. They say they're trying to make more of them,
but I think they really don't want the prices to fall, since they're
expensive to make. In any case I'd like more solar power, but the
initial outlay is _not_ cheap.


While I'm all for using more renewable resources, and especially
ones that are environmentally friendly, it doesn't make sense to
cause yourself financial pain doing so. It makes sense to buy the
must fuel efficient vehicle that fits your needs but not to overspend
simply because it's a little better on the gas mileage.

It's not a "little" better, it more than double - 50+ MPG compared to 25!

[snip]
You could
also change your diet to include less animal products. Raising animals
to produce food takes many times more resources (which often means
energy) as plants alone require.

Right, but it's **you** (see above) that said to not cause yourself
financial pain. Well, I _try_ to do my part to eat little or no beef,
instead eat chicken. But I _have_ to pay a premium to do so, even tho
it's cheaper to bring chicken to the table, just because of supply and
demand issue. People consume less beef so the price drops below
chicken, not because it's cheaper. So I and everyone else hasto pay
extra for, helping save resources. Just what you said _didn't_make_
sense_.

There are also many alternatives to a Prius. One option would be to
get a diesel powered car and use biodiesel or get it converted to
run on straight vegetable oil. Another option is to buy an electric
car.

Again, you're asking for people to make a financial sacrifice when
buying an electric vehicle. The last I checked, it cost $46,000 to
purchase a RAV4 EV, with a good chunk of that going to the installation
of an electric charger in the owner's garage. According to you, that
financial pain 'doesn't make sense'.

If you simply
must have a hybrid vehicle then a much wider selection of them should
be available within the next 10 to 15 years.

In the next 10 to 15 years, the situation may be much, much worse. The
big worry in the near term seems to be China, with 1/5th of the world's
population, which may have a growing economy that will gobble up an ever
growing part of the world's non-renewable energy resources. In 10-15
years, it may be too late! The price of fuel in europe is already over
$5 a gallon, and we Americans are currently bitching about having to pay
over $2! Well, wait until it goes up to $3, or more! All those SUV
owners in the U.S. will be taking tbe bus to work. Time will tell!

Anthony

Surprisingly enough some SUV owners actually need the SUV at the time of
purchase, I personally drove through snow 70cm deep on a regular basis prior
to my recent job change. Just because the people in southern California
don't need it doesn't mean no one does.

Charles

Charles W. Johnson Jr. wrote:

[snip]

While I'm all for using more renewable resources, and especially
ones that are environmentally friendly, it doesn't make sense to
cause yourself financial pain doing so. It makes sense to buy the
must fuel efficient vehicle that fits your needs but not to overspend
simply because it's a little better on the gas mileage.

It's not a "little" better, it more than double - 50+ MPG compared to 25!

[snip]

Surprisingly enough some SUV owners actually need the SUV at the time of
purchase, I personally drove through snow 70cm deep on a regular basis prior
to my recent job change. Just because the people in southern California
don't need it doesn't mean no one does.

Charles

Surprisingly enough, many of those people who bought a big Ford
Expedition or GM Yukon could have got by with a lot smaller, and hence a
lot more economical SUV. ALso, there are vans, too, with a much better
gas mileage. Surprisingly enough, it's not about whether or not it's a
SUV or a truck or whatever, it's whether or not it's a gas guzzler.

"Watson A.Name "Watt Sun - the Dark Remover"" wrote
in message ...
Charles W. Johnson Jr. wrote:

[snip]

While I'm all for using more renewable resources, and especially
ones that are environmentally friendly, it doesn't make sense to
cause yourself financial pain doing so. It makes sense to buy the
must fuel efficient vehicle that fits your needs but not to overspend
simply because it's a little better on the gas mileage.

It's not a "little" better, it more than double - 50+ MPG compared to
25!

[snip]

Surprisingly enough some SUV owners actually need the SUV at the time of
purchase, I personally drove through snow 70cm deep on a regular basis
prior
to my recent job change. Just because the people in southern California
don't need it doesn't mean no one does.

Charles

Surprisingly enough, many of those people who bought a big Ford
Expedition or GM Yukon could have got by with a lot smaller, and hence a
lot more economical SUV. ALso, there are vans, too, with a much better
gas mileage. Surprisingly enough, it's not about whether or not it's a
SUV or a truck or whatever, it's whether or not it's a gas guzzler.

A van with 4X4 or allwheel drive and ground clearance is an SUV.
Gas mileage becomes secondary if every time you try to move you get stuck.
The small SUV hold a family of 5 uncomfortably the larger hold a family of
seven, mom, dad, grandma and grandpa + 2 or more kids comfortably plus will
pull that 30'+ mobile home they camp in. Again not everyone lives in
Southern California where you can't do anything fun least you violate some
environmentalists dream.

Personally I bought the smallest vehicle I felt could do the job I needed it
to. That turned out to be a V6 that get about 25mpg highway.

Charles

"Watson A.Name "Watt Sun - the Dark Remover"" wrote
in message ...
Charles W. Johnson Jr. wrote:

[snip]

While I'm all for using more renewable resources, and especially
ones that are environmentally friendly, it doesn't make sense to
cause yourself financial pain doing so. It makes sense to buy the
must fuel efficient vehicle that fits your needs but not to overspend
simply because it's a little better on the gas mileage.

It's not a "little" better, it more than double - 50+ MPG compared to
25!

[snip]

Surprisingly enough some SUV owners actually need the SUV at the time of
purchase, I personally drove through snow 70cm deep on a regular basis
prior
to my recent job change. Just because the people in southern California
don't need it doesn't mean no one does.

Charles

Surprisingly enough, many of those people who bought a big Ford
Expedition or GM Yukon could have got by with a lot smaller, and hence a
lot more economical SUV. ALso, there are vans, too, with a much better
gas mileage. Surprisingly enough, it's not about whether or not it's a
SUV or a truck or whatever, it's whether or not it's a gas guzzler.

A van with 4X4 or allwheel drive and ground clearance is an SUV.
Gas mileage becomes secondary if every time you try to move you get stuck.
The small SUV hold a family of 5 uncomfortably the larger hold a family of
seven, mom, dad, grandma and grandpa + 2 or more kids comfortably plus will
pull that 30'+ mobile home they camp in. Again not everyone lives in
Southern California where you can't do anything fun least you violate some
environmentalists dream.

Personally I bought the smallest vehicle I felt could do the job I needed it
to. That turned out to be a V6 that get about 25mpg highway.

Charles