Watson A.Name "Watt Sun - the Dark Remover" wrote:
Last nite (Tue, 9pm) I watched a prog on PBS that was about getting
people to use more renewable resources, hosted by Cameron Diaz (hot
blonde movie star), who drives a Prius.

Nice idea, although in her particular case I'd be willing to bet that she
could be driving a Hummer and it'd be a small drop in the amount of energy
she uses for transportation! (Due to all those jet rides...)

They talked about getting every
home to have a solar panel, and selling power back to the utility co.

I'm all for net metering (power company has to pay you the same for a
kilowatt-hour as what you would have had to pay to buy it from them), and
happily it is becoming more common in the U.S. Panels and controllers are
continuing to get cheaper as well. Additional government support could
really help improve how many people would seriously consider sticking
photovolataic panels on their roofs -- I imagine right now it's well under
1% of the population.

She also said that if everyone in the U.S. drove a hybrid vehicle, we
could completely eliminate oil shipments from the middle east.

We could do that as-is... there's plenty of oil in Alaska, after all, we've
just made the choice that protecting the environment up there is more
important right now than not importing oil from the middle east. (This is a
very involved topic -- if anything, the choice of where we get our oil from
is far more political than technical in nature anyway.)

---Joel Kolstad

Anthony Matonak wrote:
That said, there are many things you can do that are quite affordable.

Yes, such as building better-insulated dwellings. I find it appaling that
here in Oregon where I live, the building codes don't require some apartment
complexes to have any insulation whatsoever in their attics. These places
additionally inevitably end up with electric heat, so the end result is that
a small savings to the guy who builds the apartment complex ends up being a
huge cost in additional energy to the renter as well as the corresponding
impact on the environment.

There are also many alternatives to a Prius.

Although I understand the reasoning behind it, it's quite ironic how many
people out there who live within an arguably quite reasonable bikable
distance to their place of employment instead drive to work and then drive
to a fitness club afterwards to work out. :-) Although I am all for people
using their cars as much as they want so long as fuel taxes or whatever more
or less make up for the impact to the environment, but unfortunately it's
hard to translate that impact into monetary terms.

---Joel

Anthony Matonak wrote:
That said, there are many things you can do that are quite affordable.

Yes, such as building better-insulated dwellings. I find it appaling that
here in Oregon where I live, the building codes don't require some apartment
complexes to have any insulation whatsoever in their attics. These places
additionally inevitably end up with electric heat, so the end result is that
a small savings to the guy who builds the apartment complex ends up being a
huge cost in additional energy to the renter as well as the corresponding
impact on the environment.

There are also many alternatives to a Prius.

Although I understand the reasoning behind it, it's quite ironic how many
people out there who live within an arguably quite reasonable bikable
distance to their place of employment instead drive to work and then drive
to a fitness club afterwards to work out. :-) Although I am all for people
using their cars as much as they want so long as fuel taxes or whatever more
or less make up for the impact to the environment, but unfortunately it's
hard to translate that impact into monetary terms.

---Joel

Anthony Matonak wrote:
Watson A.Name \"Watt Sun - the Dark Remover\" wrote:

Last nite (Tue, 9pm) I watched a prog on PBS that was about getting
people to use more renewable resources, hosted by Cameron Diaz (hot
blonde movie star), who drives a Prius. They talked about getting
every home to have a solar panel, and selling power back to the
utility co. She also said that if everyone in the U.S. drove a hybrid
vehicle, we could completely eliminate oil shipments from the middle
east. Well, I'd go out and buy a Prius, but one of the guys at work
has had his new Prius since xmas and it took him 4 months or so to get
it after submitting a $500 earnest check to several dealerships to get
on their waiting list. They say they're trying to make more of them,
but I think they really don't want the prices to fall, since they're
expensive to make. In any case I'd like more solar power, but the
initial outlay is _not_ cheap.


While I'm all for using more renewable resources, and especially
ones that are environmentally friendly, it doesn't make sense to
cause yourself financial pain doing so. It makes sense to buy the
must fuel efficient vehicle that fits your needs but not to overspend
simply because it's a little better on the gas mileage.

It's not a "little" better, it more than double - 50+ MPG compared to 25!

[snip]
You could
also change your diet to include less animal products. Raising animals
to produce food takes many times more resources (which often means
energy) as plants alone require.

Right, but it's **you** (see above) that said to not cause yourself
financial pain. Well, I _try_ to do my part to eat little or no beef,
instead eat chicken. But I _have_ to pay a premium to do so, even tho
it's cheaper to bring chicken to the table, just because of supply and
demand issue. People consume less beef so the price drops below
chicken, not because it's cheaper. So I and everyone else hasto pay
extra for, helping save resources. Just what you said _didn't_make_ sense_.

There are also many alternatives to a Prius. One option would be to
get a diesel powered car and use biodiesel or get it converted to
run on straight vegetable oil. Another option is to buy an electric
car.

Again, you're asking for people to make a financial sacrifice when
buying an electric vehicle. The last I checked, it cost $46,000 to
purchase a RAV4 EV, with a good chunk of that going to the installation
of an electric charger in the owner's garage. According to you, that
financial pain 'doesn't make sense'.

If you simply
must have a hybrid vehicle then a much wider selection of them should
be available within the next 10 to 15 years.

In the next 10 to 15 years, the situation may be much, much worse. The
big worry in the near term seems to be China, with 1/5th of the world's
population, which may have a growing economy that will gobble up an ever
growing part of the world's non-renewable energy resources. In 10-15
years, it may be too late! The price of fuel in europe is already over
$5 a gallon, and we Americans are currently bitching about having to pay
over $2! Well, wait until it goes up to $3, or more! All those SUV
owners in the U.S. will be taking tbe bus to work. Time will tell!

Anthony

Anthony Matonak wrote:
Watson A.Name \"Watt Sun - the Dark Remover\" wrote:

Last nite (Tue, 9pm) I watched a prog on PBS that was about getting
people to use more renewable resources, hosted by Cameron Diaz (hot
blonde movie star), who drives a Prius. They talked about getting
every home to have a solar panel, and selling power back to the
utility co. She also said that if everyone in the U.S. drove a hybrid
vehicle, we could completely eliminate oil shipments from the middle
east. Well, I'd go out and buy a Prius, but one of the guys at work
has had his new Prius since xmas and it took him 4 months or so to get
it after submitting a $500 earnest check to several dealerships to get
on their waiting list. They say they're trying to make more of them,
but I think they really don't want the prices to fall, since they're
expensive to make. In any case I'd like more solar power, but the
initial outlay is _not_ cheap.


While I'm all for using more renewable resources, and especially
ones that are environmentally friendly, it doesn't make sense to
cause yourself financial pain doing so. It makes sense to buy the
must fuel efficient vehicle that fits your needs but not to overspend
simply because it's a little better on the gas mileage.

It's not a "little" better, it more than double - 50+ MPG compared to 25!

[snip]
You could
also change your diet to include less animal products. Raising animals
to produce food takes many times more resources (which often means
energy) as plants alone require.

Right, but it's **you** (see above) that said to not cause yourself
financial pain. Well, I _try_ to do my part to eat little or no beef,
instead eat chicken. But I _have_ to pay a premium to do so, even tho
it's cheaper to bring chicken to the table, just because of supply and
demand issue. People consume less beef so the price drops below
chicken, not because it's cheaper. So I and everyone else hasto pay
extra for, helping save resources. Just what you said _didn't_make_ sense_.

There are also many alternatives to a Prius. One option would be to
get a diesel powered car and use biodiesel or get it converted to
run on straight vegetable oil. Another option is to buy an electric
car.

Again, you're asking for people to make a financial sacrifice when
buying an electric vehicle. The last I checked, it cost $46,000 to
purchase a RAV4 EV, with a good chunk of that going to the installation
of an electric charger in the owner's garage. According to you, that
financial pain 'doesn't make sense'.

If you simply
must have a hybrid vehicle then a much wider selection of them should
be available within the next 10 to 15 years.

In the next 10 to 15 years, the situation may be much, much worse. The
big worry in the near term seems to be China, with 1/5th of the world's
population, which may have a growing economy that will gobble up an ever
growing part of the world's non-renewable energy resources. In 10-15
years, it may be too late! The price of fuel in europe is already over
$5 a gallon, and we Americans are currently bitching about having to pay
over $2! Well, wait until it goes up to $3, or more! All those SUV
owners in the U.S. will be taking tbe bus to work. Time will tell!

Anthony

"Watson A.Name "Watt Sun - the Dark Remover"" wrote
in message ...
Anthony Matonak wrote:
Watson A.Name \"Watt Sun - the Dark Remover\" wrote:

Last nite (Tue, 9pm) I watched a prog on PBS that was about getting
people to use more renewable resources, hosted by Cameron Diaz (hot
blonde movie star), who drives a Prius. They talked about getting
every home to have a solar panel, and selling power back to the
utility co. She also said that if everyone in the U.S. drove a hybrid
vehicle, we could completely eliminate oil shipments from the middle
east. Well, I'd go out and buy a Prius, but one of the guys at work
has had his new Prius since xmas and it took him 4 months or so to get
it after submitting a $500 earnest check to several dealerships to get
on their waiting list. They say they're trying to make more of them,
but I think they really don't want the prices to fall, since they're
expensive to make. In any case I'd like more solar power, but the
initial outlay is _not_ cheap.


While I'm all for using more renewable resources, and especially
ones that are environmentally friendly, it doesn't make sense to
cause yourself financial pain doing so. It makes sense to buy the
must fuel efficient vehicle that fits your needs but not to overspend
simply because it's a little better on the gas mileage.

It's not a "little" better, it more than double - 50+ MPG compared to 25!

[snip]
You could
also change your diet to include less animal products. Raising animals
to produce food takes many times more resources (which often means
energy) as plants alone require.

Right, but it's **you** (see above) that said to not cause yourself
financial pain. Well, I _try_ to do my part to eat little or no beef,
instead eat chicken. But I _have_ to pay a premium to do so, even tho
it's cheaper to bring chicken to the table, just because of supply and
demand issue. People consume less beef so the price drops below
chicken, not because it's cheaper. So I and everyone else hasto pay
extra for, helping save resources. Just what you said _didn't_make_
sense_.

There are also many alternatives to a Prius. One option would be to
get a diesel powered car and use biodiesel or get it converted to
run on straight vegetable oil. Another option is to buy an electric
car.

Again, you're asking for people to make a financial sacrifice when
buying an electric vehicle. The last I checked, it cost $46,000 to
purchase a RAV4 EV, with a good chunk of that going to the installation
of an electric charger in the owner's garage. According to you, that
financial pain 'doesn't make sense'.

If you simply
must have a hybrid vehicle then a much wider selection of them should
be available within the next 10 to 15 years.

In the next 10 to 15 years, the situation may be much, much worse. The
big worry in the near term seems to be China, with 1/5th of the world's
population, which may have a growing economy that will gobble up an ever
growing part of the world's non-renewable energy resources. In 10-15
years, it may be too late! The price of fuel in europe is already over
$5 a gallon, and we Americans are currently bitching about having to pay
over $2! Well, wait until it goes up to $3, or more! All those SUV
owners in the U.S. will be taking tbe bus to work. Time will tell!

Anthony

Surprisingly enough some SUV owners actually need the SUV at the time of
purchase, I personally drove through snow 70cm deep on a regular basis prior
to my recent job change. Just because the people in southern California
don't need it doesn't mean no one does.

Charles

"Watson A.Name "Watt Sun - the Dark Remover"" wrote
in message ...
Anthony Matonak wrote:
Watson A.Name \"Watt Sun - the Dark Remover\" wrote:

Last nite (Tue, 9pm) I watched a prog on PBS that was about getting
people to use more renewable resources, hosted by Cameron Diaz (hot
blonde movie star), who drives a Prius. They talked about getting
every home to have a solar panel, and selling power back to the
utility co. She also said that if everyone in the U.S. drove a hybrid
vehicle, we could completely eliminate oil shipments from the middle
east. Well, I'd go out and buy a Prius, but one of the guys at work
has had his new Prius since xmas and it took him 4 months or so to get
it after submitting a $500 earnest check to several dealerships to get
on their waiting list. They say they're trying to make more of them,
but I think they really don't want the prices to fall, since they're
expensive to make. In any case I'd like more solar power, but the
initial outlay is _not_ cheap.


While I'm all for using more renewable resources, and especially
ones that are environmentally friendly, it doesn't make sense to
cause yourself financial pain doing so. It makes sense to buy the
must fuel efficient vehicle that fits your needs but not to overspend
simply because it's a little better on the gas mileage.

It's not a "little" better, it more than double - 50+ MPG compared to 25!

[snip]
You could
also change your diet to include less animal products. Raising animals
to produce food takes many times more resources (which often means
energy) as plants alone require.

Right, but it's **you** (see above) that said to not cause yourself
financial pain. Well, I _try_ to do my part to eat little or no beef,
instead eat chicken. But I _have_ to pay a premium to do so, even tho
it's cheaper to bring chicken to the table, just because of supply and
demand issue. People consume less beef so the price drops below
chicken, not because it's cheaper. So I and everyone else hasto pay
extra for, helping save resources. Just what you said _didn't_make_
sense_.

There are also many alternatives to a Prius. One option would be to
get a diesel powered car and use biodiesel or get it converted to
run on straight vegetable oil. Another option is to buy an electric
car.

Again, you're asking for people to make a financial sacrifice when
buying an electric vehicle. The last I checked, it cost $46,000 to
purchase a RAV4 EV, with a good chunk of that going to the installation
of an electric charger in the owner's garage. According to you, that
financial pain 'doesn't make sense'.

If you simply
must have a hybrid vehicle then a much wider selection of them should
be available within the next 10 to 15 years.

In the next 10 to 15 years, the situation may be much, much worse. The
big worry in the near term seems to be China, with 1/5th of the world's
population, which may have a growing economy that will gobble up an ever
growing part of the world's non-renewable energy resources. In 10-15
years, it may be too late! The price of fuel in europe is already over
$5 a gallon, and we Americans are currently bitching about having to pay
over $2! Well, wait until it goes up to $3, or more! All those SUV
owners in the U.S. will be taking tbe bus to work. Time will tell!

Anthony

Surprisingly enough some SUV owners actually need the SUV at the time of
purchase, I personally drove through snow 70cm deep on a regular basis prior
to my recent job change. Just because the people in southern California
don't need it doesn't mean no one does.

Charles

Watson A.Name \"Watt Sun - the Dark Remover\" wrote:
Anthony Matonak wrote:
While I'm all for using more renewable resources, and especially
ones that are environmentally friendly, it doesn't make sense to
cause yourself financial pain doing so. It makes sense to buy the
must fuel efficient vehicle that fits your needs but not to overspend
simply because it's a little better on the gas mileage.

It's not a "little" better, it more than double - 50+ MPG compared to 25!

The definition of "little" can vary.
Would you consider 5 MPG a "little" ?

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bestworst.shtml
Shows the Prius at 60/51 mpg with a couple of VW's in the 38/46 range.
This is only 1.6/1.1 times and not double, especially when considering
highway driving instead of city driving. This means you can purchase
a vehicle with good fuel efficiency without buying a Prius or even
a hybrid.

You could
also change your diet to include less animal products. Raising animals
to produce food takes many times more resources (which often means
energy) as plants alone require.

Right, but it's **you** (see above) that said to not cause yourself
financial pain. Well, I _try_ to do my part to eat little or no beef,
instead eat chicken. But I _have_ to pay a premium to do so, even tho
it's cheaper to bring chicken to the table, just because of supply and
demand issue. People consume less beef so the price drops below
chicken, not because it's cheaper. So I and everyone else hasto pay
extra for, helping save resources. Just what you said _didn't_make_
sense_.

You could chose to eliminate chicken as well as beef, eggs and dairy.
I'm no expert in either nutrition or food prices but I think you could
quite affordably manage a diet that does not include meat of any kind.
Perhaps you should look at a group such as misc.consumers.frugal-living
and ask for recipes. You could also look up many of the resources on
the web for vegetarians and vegans.

There are also many alternatives to a Prius. One option would be to
get a diesel powered car and use biodiesel or get it converted to
run on straight vegetable oil. Another option is to buy an electric
car.

Again, you're asking for people to make a financial sacrifice when
buying an electric vehicle. The last I checked, it cost $46,000 to
purchase a RAV4 EV, with a good chunk of that going to the installation
of an electric charger in the owner's garage. According to you, that
financial pain 'doesn't make sense'.

I agree, a RAV4 EV might not make sense on a financial basis. The last I
heard they don't make them anymore. Any you do find are collectors
items and will be priced accordingly. In fact, it might actually be
rather difficult to find a brand new EV, even the golf cart style like
the Chrysler GEM, as they keep getting discontinued. That said, a small
neighborhood electric vehicle only costs in the neighborhood of $5,000
to $6,000 when they can be found.

If you simply
must have a hybrid vehicle then a much wider selection of them should
be available within the next 10 to 15 years.

In the next 10 to 15 years, the situation may be much, much worse. The
big worry in the near term seems to be China, with 1/5th of the world's
population, which may have a growing economy that will gobble up an ever
growing part of the world's non-renewable energy resources. In 10-15
years, it may be too late! The price of fuel in europe is already over
$5 a gallon, and we Americans are currently bitching about having to pay
over $2! Well, wait until it goes up to $3, or more! All those SUV
owners in the U.S. will be taking tbe bus to work. Time will tell!

There are many worries in the world and it's always too late for
some things. Time will certainly tell but there ARE some things
that folks can do now if they like and without putting themselves
in debt for the rest of their lives.

Anthony

Watson A.Name \"Watt Sun - the Dark Remover\" wrote:
Anthony Matonak wrote:
While I'm all for using more renewable resources, and especially
ones that are environmentally friendly, it doesn't make sense to
cause yourself financial pain doing so. It makes sense to buy the
must fuel efficient vehicle that fits your needs but not to overspend
simply because it's a little better on the gas mileage.

It's not a "little" better, it more than double - 50+ MPG compared to 25!

The definition of "little" can vary.
Would you consider 5 MPG a "little" ?

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bestworst.shtml
Shows the Prius at 60/51 mpg with a couple of VW's in the 38/46 range.
This is only 1.6/1.1 times and not double, especially when considering
highway driving instead of city driving. This means you can purchase
a vehicle with good fuel efficiency without buying a Prius or even
a hybrid.

You could
also change your diet to include less animal products. Raising animals
to produce food takes many times more resources (which often means
energy) as plants alone require.

Right, but it's **you** (see above) that said to not cause yourself
financial pain. Well, I _try_ to do my part to eat little or no beef,
instead eat chicken. But I _have_ to pay a premium to do so, even tho
it's cheaper to bring chicken to the table, just because of supply and
demand issue. People consume less beef so the price drops below
chicken, not because it's cheaper. So I and everyone else hasto pay
extra for, helping save resources. Just what you said _didn't_make_
sense_.

You could chose to eliminate chicken as well as beef, eggs and dairy.
I'm no expert in either nutrition or food prices but I think you could
quite affordably manage a diet that does not include meat of any kind.
Perhaps you should look at a group such as misc.consumers.frugal-living
and ask for recipes. You could also look up many of the resources on
the web for vegetarians and vegans.

There are also many alternatives to a Prius. One option would be to
get a diesel powered car and use biodiesel or get it converted to
run on straight vegetable oil. Another option is to buy an electric
car.

Again, you're asking for people to make a financial sacrifice when
buying an electric vehicle. The last I checked, it cost $46,000 to
purchase a RAV4 EV, with a good chunk of that going to the installation
of an electric charger in the owner's garage. According to you, that
financial pain 'doesn't make sense'.

I agree, a RAV4 EV might not make sense on a financial basis. The last I
heard they don't make them anymore. Any you do find are collectors
items and will be priced accordingly. In fact, it might actually be
rather difficult to find a brand new EV, even the golf cart style like
the Chrysler GEM, as they keep getting discontinued. That said, a small
neighborhood electric vehicle only costs in the neighborhood of $5,000
to $6,000 when they can be found.

If you simply
must have a hybrid vehicle then a much wider selection of them should
be available within the next 10 to 15 years.

In the next 10 to 15 years, the situation may be much, much worse. The
big worry in the near term seems to be China, with 1/5th of the world's
population, which may have a growing economy that will gobble up an ever
growing part of the world's non-renewable energy resources. In 10-15
years, it may be too late! The price of fuel in europe is already over
$5 a gallon, and we Americans are currently bitching about having to pay
over $2! Well, wait until it goes up to $3, or more! All those SUV
owners in the U.S. will be taking tbe bus to work. Time will tell!

There are many worries in the world and it's always too late for
some things. Time will certainly tell but there ARE some things
that folks can do now if they like and without putting themselves
in debt for the rest of their lives.

Anthony

Anthony Matonak wrote:
Watson A.Name \"Watt Sun - the Dark Remover\" wrote:

Last nite (Tue, 9pm) I watched a prog on PBS that was about getting
people to use more renewable resources, hosted by Cameron Diaz (hot
blonde movie star), who drives a Prius. They talked about getting
every home to have a solar panel, and selling power back to the
utility co. She also said that if everyone in the U.S. drove a hybrid
vehicle, we could completely eliminate oil shipments from the middle
east. Well, I'd go out and buy a Prius, but one of the guys at work
has had his new Prius since xmas and it took him 4 months or so to get
it after submitting a $500 earnest check to several dealerships to get
on their waiting list. They say they're trying to make more of them,
but I think they really don't want the prices to fall, since they're
expensive to make. In any case I'd like more solar power, but the
initial outlay is _not_ cheap.


While I'm all for using more renewable resources, and especially
ones that are environmentally friendly,

I once read that it takes more energy to make, deliver, install a solar
panel than the total energy you get out of it over it's 20 year
lifetime. If that's true, (small scale PV) solar makes little sense
from an environmental standpoint.

mike



it doesn't make sense to
cause yourself financial pain doing so. It makes sense to buy the
must fuel efficient vehicle that fits your needs but not to overspend
simply because it's a little better on the gas mileage.

That said, there are many things you can do that are quite affordable.
First, you could conserve energy. Replace old appliances with more
efficient ones, insulate your home better, weather-strip, storm windows,
compact fluorescent lights, activate the power saving on your computer,
use xeriscaping and all that lot. If you are a typical homeowners then
conservation alone could be as effective as putting up a $30,000 solar
panel setup.

Then you could buy more affordable renewable energy equipment such as
solar water heaters, air heaters, ovens, stoves and the like. You could
also change your diet to include less animal products. Raising animals
to produce food takes many times more resources (which often means
energy) as plants alone require.

There are also many alternatives to a Prius. One option would be to
get a diesel powered car and use biodiesel or get it converted to
run on straight vegetable oil. Another option is to buy an electric
car. Currently the only ones available are "city cars" which turn
out to be glorified golf carts but they are suitable for very local
driving and can sometimes work as a second car. Some folks have even
had great success with bicycles of various flavors. If you simply
must have a hybrid vehicle then a much wider selection of them should
be available within the next 10 to 15 years.

Anthony




--
Return address is VALID.
Bunch of stuff For Sale and Wanted at the link below.
Toshiba & Compaq LiIon Batteries, Test Equipment
Honda CB-125S $800 in PDX
Yaesu FTV901R Transverter, 30pS pulser
Tektronix Concept Books, spot welding head...
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Monitor/4710/