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#1
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Hmmm, I thought it "right in line."
If such equip. was adopted, then just as with computers, you could buy/cut/etch a "card" with the expectation it could be inserted right into the bus of that radio and function, taking on responsibilities--for say an audio amp (just as that EXACT capability exists with a computer bus).... Indeed, this idea does NOT bypass homebrewers, it encourages them and provides them MUCH more opportunity to participate in constructing their own equip.... I see it as EMPOWERING homebrewers--far from the opposite!!! Indeed, if some were as gifted as all that, they need only buy the case and some foil boards/components--when they emerged from the basement--I'd expect to see a radio of their OWN design in their hands!!! Warmest regards, John -- When Viagra fails to work--you are DOOMED!!! "Michael Black" wrote in message ... | | Roy Lewallen ) writes: | Mike Coslo wrote: | | Yoiks, Roy! That was a little caustic wasn't it? | | - Mike KB3EIA - | | I do tend to be that way. And because of the couple of negative comments | about my posting I've thought it over a fair amount to see if, on | reflection, I think it was out of line. | | But I don't think so, unless I mininterpreted what "John Smith" said. | What he seemed to be saying is that he has this great idea, and the only | reason it's not being impelemented is that *the other people* are too | lazy to do it. | | As one of the "other people", I find it kind of insulting. Do you really | think his is a valid point of view, that everyone else should jump up | and implement his great idea, while this anonymous person's job is to | tell us what we should do? | | I really do think that a caustic comment was appropriate. | | Roy Lewallen, W7EL | | He gave the impression of being someone who'd been here before, | though at least it wasn't cross-posted to the UK newsgroup. | | It just struck me as "well what's it doing here?". This newsgroup | isn't about commercial equipment, though we seem to have a slow | slide to where such things do appear here. Yet the poster seemed | to be talking about commercial equipment, and whether or not | that was the point, making your own equipment shouldn't be quite | about building a copy of something someone else built. | | Had he posted in rec.radio.amateur.equipment I think perhaps | the tone of the response should be different. But here, at | the very least it should be a discussion of modularization rather | than subject header that is bound to alienate, and an expectation | of how things should be. | | The talk of modularization, which seems better fitted to radio | than "plug in boards", has been discussed quite a bit over the years. | But of course, rather than some universal system (which has had | some articles in the ham magazines) the focus has been on breaking | things down to smaller portions so you can experiment, or you | can change things without having to change everything. And yes, | solid state devices, because of their small size, low price and | even function allows a better implementation. When you can | switch with DC it is much easier to do modularization than if | you have to have everything hanging off a bandswitch. | | Michael VE2BVW | | |
#2
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In article ,
John Smith wrote: Hmmm, I thought it "right in line." If such equip. was adopted, then just as with computers, you could buy/cut/etch a "card" with the expectation it could be inserted right into the bus of that radio and function, taking on responsibilities--for say an audio amp (just as that EXACT capability exists with a computer bus).... Indeed, this idea does NOT bypass homebrewers, it encourages them and provides them MUCH more opportunity to participate in constructing their own equip.... I see it as EMPOWERING homebrewers--far from the opposite!!! As others have (I think) pointed out, there are some very valid technical and regulatory problems which might make this approach less than popular. Here in the U.S., at least, transmitters in most of the radio services have to be "certificated" (previously "type accepted") by their manufacturer, demonstrating that they comply with the operational and emissions rules for that service. In these services, almost any physical modification of the radio will invalidate the certification, and make it technically illegal to use it to transmit. Modifications which don't violate the certification can only be made by technicians or organizations with a specific license, and (I believe) may require a significant amount of re-testing to demonstrate that the radio still meets the requirements. The FCC rules don't provide for the arbitrary swapping around of radio cards in such transmitters. Also, there's a tradeoff between modularity, and cost/performance. The more modular a radio (or computer) is, the greater the number of gozintas and comesoutas (i.e. signal connectors, busses, etc.). These add cost, they decrease reliability (compared to a soldered connection), and they limit the degree to which one can take advantage of increasing degrees of device integration at the chip level. The highly-modular PC infrastructure has gotten to where it is, in terms of price and flexibility, because of the extremely large number of units produced - there's a lot of "economy of scale". This is due in large part to the fact that consumer, business, and industrial applications can all use the same architectures. People have also been extremely eager to take advantage of higher-performance components and have been willing to accept relatively short product lifetimes as a result... and this increases the demand for a "change out part of the system and keep the rest" solution which demands modularity. I don't think that the same environment exists for radios. Commercial and public-safety radios have a long lifetime, they have the need for physical ruggedness which may discourage the use of a "plug-in" architecture with lots of connectors that can shake loose, they're rather cost-sensitive, and for regulatory reasons they probably cannot adopt a "Users may change out components" architecture. In these radio services, a "You buy it, and it never changes" shrink-wrapped monolithic radio design simply makes more business and economic sense. Things may become a bit more friendly in this regard, at least for base stations, with the newer "software defined radio" architectures. However, in commercial and business services, the FCC insists that the systems be designed and built in a way which prevents users from making arbitrary changes to the configuration which could violate regulations. One example of this is the Atheros 802.11a/b/c wireless radio cards... their behavior is very strongly defined by their firmware, and the vendor says that they *cannot* release the firmware or low-level drivers in source-code form for fear of violating the FCC's software-radio rules. Frankly, I think that the amateur radio service is probably one of the few services (and perhaps the only one) in which a general-purpose "radio card plug-in" architecture or system could be generally useful, and the resulting radios would probably be significantly more expensive than monolithic-board or proprietary-bus radios of similar capabilities. Due to the limited size of this market (compared to business and public safety) I doubt that you'll see the big manufacturers invest the time and money required to develop and promote and market such an architecture. No sense in their doing so. Without the leverage of being able to use the same technology in other radio services, it's be a big investment for no return. Indeed, if some were as gifted as all that, they need only buy the case and some foil boards/components--when they emerged from the basement--I'd expect to see a radio of their OWN design in their hands!!! And there, I think, you've defined the only market to which such an architecture would be strongly attractive - hobbyists. There might be enough of a community there to support the development of such an architecture, just as there are communities supporting the GNU software radio, the RockMite, and other specialized radios. Feel free to propose a design, John Smith! If it's as overwhelmingly good an idea as you seem to think, maybe it'll take over the world by storm! In short, John, I don't think it's fair to say that there has been "no progress". Rather, I'd say that things haven't gone in the direction you suggest, because your solution is one which solves a problem which most people don't feel is worth solving, and comes with a cost that most people don't care to pay. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
#3
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Well, things have not gone as one would expect...
And, they may well be due to rules, regulations, and mindsets... and, specifically, ones generated from an "American mindset." Now, there is the "rest of the world" as we move to "globalization" these ideas here will hardly set the course--I have afraid our part will be more of passenger, as opposed to a captain... the best I can see is, using our "paddle" we are able to affect a slight course change in our favor... If one of your arguments is, don't propose any ideas until you have a complete working design--I see that as more an answer to my original observation... progress remains slow-to-halted, that simply being one of the contributing factors... If you seek to give a list of "why it can't work", that is helpful, but, bear in mind, I was looking more for a list of "why it can." Warmest regards, John -- When Viagra fails to work--you are DOOMED!!! "Dave Platt" wrote in message ... | In article , | John Smith wrote: | | Hmmm, I thought it "right in line." | | If such equip. was adopted, then just as with computers, you could | buy/cut/etch a "card" with the expectation it could be inserted right into | the bus of that radio and function, taking on responsibilities--for say an | audio amp (just as that EXACT capability exists with a computer bus).... | | Indeed, this idea does NOT bypass homebrewers, it encourages them and | provides them MUCH more opportunity to participate in constructing their own | equip.... I see it as EMPOWERING homebrewers--far from the opposite!!! | | As others have (I think) pointed out, there are some very valid | technical and regulatory problems which might make this approach less | than popular. | | Here in the U.S., at least, transmitters in most of the radio services | have to be "certificated" (previously "type accepted") by their | manufacturer, demonstrating that they comply with the operational and | emissions rules for that service. In these services, almost any | physical modification of the radio will invalidate the certification, | and make it technically illegal to use it to transmit. Modifications | which don't violate the certification can only be made by technicians | or organizations with a specific license, and (I believe) may require | a significant amount of re-testing to demonstrate that the radio still | meets the requirements. | | The FCC rules don't provide for the arbitrary swapping around of radio | cards in such transmitters. | | Also, there's a tradeoff between modularity, and cost/performance. | The more modular a radio (or computer) is, the greater the number of | gozintas and comesoutas (i.e. signal connectors, busses, etc.). These | add cost, they decrease reliability (compared to a soldered | connection), and they limit the degree to which one can take advantage | of increasing degrees of device integration at the chip level. | | The highly-modular PC infrastructure has gotten to where it is, in | terms of price and flexibility, because of the extremely large number | of units produced - there's a lot of "economy of scale". This is due | in large part to the fact that consumer, business, and industrial | applications can all use the same architectures. People have also | been extremely eager to take advantage of higher-performance | components and have been willing to accept relatively short product | lifetimes as a result... and this increases the demand for a "change | out part of the system and keep the rest" solution which demands | modularity. | | I don't think that the same environment exists for radios. Commercial | and public-safety radios have a long lifetime, they have the need for | physical ruggedness which may discourage the use of a "plug-in" | architecture with lots of connectors that can shake loose, they're | rather cost-sensitive, and for regulatory reasons they probably cannot | adopt a "Users may change out components" architecture. | | In these radio services, a "You buy it, and it never changes" | shrink-wrapped monolithic radio design simply makes more business and | economic sense. | | Things may become a bit more friendly in this regard, at least for | base stations, with the newer "software defined radio" architectures. | However, in commercial and business services, the FCC insists that the | systems be designed and built in a way which prevents users from | making arbitrary changes to the configuration which could violate | regulations. One example of this is the Atheros 802.11a/b/c wireless | radio cards... their behavior is very strongly defined by their | firmware, and the vendor says that they *cannot* release the firmware | or low-level drivers in source-code form for fear of violating the | FCC's software-radio rules. | | Frankly, I think that the amateur radio service is probably one of the | few services (and perhaps the only one) in which a general-purpose | "radio card plug-in" architecture or system could be generally useful, | and the resulting radios would probably be significantly more | expensive than monolithic-board or proprietary-bus radios of similar | capabilities. | | Due to the limited size of this market (compared to business and | public safety) I doubt that you'll see the big manufacturers invest | the time and money required to develop and promote and market such an | architecture. No sense in their doing so. Without the leverage of | being able to use the same technology in other radio services, it's be | a big investment for no return. | | Indeed, if some were as gifted as all that, they need only buy the case and | some foil boards/components--when they emerged from the basement--I'd expect | to see a radio of their OWN design in their hands!!! | | And there, I think, you've defined the only market to which such an | architecture would be strongly attractive - hobbyists. | | There might be enough of a community there to support the development | of such an architecture, just as there are communities supporting the | GNU software radio, the RockMite, and other specialized radios. | | Feel free to propose a design, John Smith! If it's as overwhelmingly | good an idea as you seem to think, maybe it'll take over the world by | storm! | | In short, John, I don't think it's fair to say that there has been "no | progress". Rather, I'd say that things haven't gone in the direction | you suggest, because your solution is one which solves a problem which | most people don't feel is worth solving, and comes with a cost that | most people don't care to pay. | | -- | Dave Platt AE6EO | Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior | I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will | boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
#4
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John Smith wrote:
Well, things have not gone as one would expect... And, they may well be due to rules, regulations, and mindsets... and, specifically, ones generated from an "American mindset." Now, there is the "rest of the world" as we move to "globalization" these ideas here will hardly set the course--I have afraid our part will be more of passenger, as opposed to a captain... the best I can see is, using our "paddle" we are able to affect a slight course change in our favor... If one of your arguments is, don't propose any ideas until you have a complete working design--I see that as more an answer to my original observation... progress remains slow-to-halted, that simply being one of the contributing factors... If you seek to give a list of "why it can't work", that is helpful, but, bear in mind, I was looking more for a list of "why it can." Warmest regards, John Microdyne (L-3Com) made telemetry receivers that plugged into EISA, PCI and VME busses. They were very expensive due to the problems of shielding the modules and having a wad of miniature coax cables and connectors running between sections. The RCB-2000 (VME based) system was $80,000. You got that kind of money laying around? What happens when you have compatibility problems between third party modules, or need support for a board and the company is out of business? Who do you expect to put up the money to develop the first units? Do you think the prototype will work so well that you can ship it? How many man-years of development do you want to pay for? How many do you expect to sell? What happens when they change the buss type or speed, again? Have you ever done any PC or commercial RF design? -- Former professional electron wrangler. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
#5
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You miss the point, I expect the cards to cover the planet... our present
way of thinking enslaves us to "our beloved componet" or, "our beloved manufacturer", time for a change... I suspect, in the future problems will arise and be delt with--just recently I had to do a "kludge" and replace a 6cw4 with a fet... who knows what "fixes" will be forced on those of the future... Warmest regards, John -- When Viagra fails to work--you are DOOMED!!! "Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message ... | John Smith wrote: | | Well, things have not gone as one would expect... | And, they may well be due to rules, regulations, and mindsets... and, | specifically, ones generated from an "American mindset." | Now, there is the "rest of the world" as we move to "globalization" these | ideas here will hardly set the course--I have afraid our part will be more | of passenger, as opposed to a captain... the best I can see is, using our | "paddle" we are able to affect a slight course change in our favor... | | If one of your arguments is, don't propose any ideas until you have a | complete working design--I see that as more an answer to my original | observation... progress remains slow-to-halted, that simply being one of | the contributing factors... | | If you seek to give a list of "why it can't work", that is helpful, but, | bear in mind, I was looking more for a list of "why it can." | | Warmest regards, | John | | | Microdyne (L-3Com) made telemetry receivers that plugged into EISA, | PCI and VME busses. They were very expensive due to the problems of | shielding the modules and having a wad of miniature coax cables and | connectors running between sections. The RCB-2000 (VME based) system | was $80,000. You got that kind of money laying around? | | What happens when you have compatibility problems between third party | modules, or need support for a board and the company is out of | business? Who do you expect to put up the money to develop the first | units? Do you think the prototype will work so well that you can ship | it? How many man-years of development do you want to pay for? How many | do you expect to sell? What happens when they change the buss type or | speed, again? Have you ever done any PC or commercial RF design? | | -- | Former professional electron wrangler. | | Michael A. Terrell | Central Florida |
#6
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John Smith wrote:
You miss the point, I expect the cards to cover the planet... our present way of thinking enslaves us to "our beloved componet" or, "our beloved manufacturer", time for a change... You can't see the forest for the trees. There isn't a big enough market for what you want to EVER bring the price down to a reasonable level. You can't do anything without some initial specifications. You have to do research on available parts, cost to tool up the metalwork, and liability for your design. You mention a "PA" implying a transmitter module. You talk about "manufactures of the modules" This brings the FCC, UL, and other testing costs and problems. You have no idea what you are talking about, unless you have worked to design a modular system. It can easily triple the cost of the design. Then there is software compatibility. You have to set strict standards for each module, or one "X" module won't work with someone else's "Y" module. How about the GUI? who is going to write a new one for every combination of modules? Or do you plan on having a couple dozen separate programs on screen at a time for each function? have you ever designed a complete radio system? I suspect, in the future problems will arise and be delt with--just recently I had to do a "kludge" and replace a 6cw4 with a fet... who knows what "fixes" will be forced on those of the future... I'm all too familiar with finding replacements for obsolete parts. Both in manufacturing and repair. There is a mature product on the production line. Purchasing comes running to the production manager to tell them that the last manufacturer of a line of components has just dropped the whole line, and we missed the "Lifetime buy" option by a couple days. Do you drop the product, or do you redesign it? DO you spend days or weeks tracking down surplus parts through a broker that may or may not be good, and risk bad PR when they have a high failure rate in the field? Been there, done that. The tee shirt was NLA. Warmest regards, John -- When Viagra fails to work--you are DOOMED!!! There is your problem. You want a fast cure for every perceived problem. -- Former professional electron wrangler. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
#7
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I don't think the "apple boys" had ever designed a complete computer before
they did--indeed, don't remember anyone else (or team of engineers, techs, scientists, etc...) doing a desktop before then... You mean, China, Russia, India, USA, Canada, So. American, Mexico, etc--and every gov't, business, private individual, ham and cb'er... is not a big enough market... these things would be manufactured in China yanno!!! Kinda like Mac's and IBM's, yanno. Lets face it, it is most difficult to buy American computer boards, memory, etc--these radios would be the same... the computers are already made there, we would just be giving them one more task... Warmest regards, John -- When Viagra fails to work--you are DOOMED!!! "Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message ... | John Smith wrote: | | You miss the point, I expect the cards to cover the planet... our present | way of thinking enslaves us to "our beloved componet" or, "our beloved | manufacturer", time for a change... | | | You can't see the forest for the trees. There isn't a big enough | market for what you want to EVER bring the price down to a reasonable | level. You can't do anything without some initial specifications. You | have to do research on available parts, cost to tool up the metalwork, | and liability for your design. You mention a "PA" implying a transmitter | module. You talk about "manufactures of the modules" This brings the | FCC, UL, and other testing costs and problems. You have no idea what you | are talking about, unless you have worked to design a modular system. | It can easily triple the cost of the design. Then there is software | compatibility. You have to set strict standards for each module, or one | "X" module won't work with someone else's "Y" module. How about the | GUI? who is going to write a new one for every combination of modules? | Or do you plan on having a couple dozen separate programs on screen at a | time for each function? | | have you ever designed a complete radio system? | | I suspect, in the future problems will arise and be delt with--just recently | I had to do a "kludge" and replace a 6cw4 with a fet... who knows what | "fixes" will be forced on those of the future... | | | I'm all too familiar with finding replacements for obsolete parts. | Both in manufacturing and repair. There is a mature product on the | production line. Purchasing comes running to the production manager to | tell them that the last manufacturer of a line of components has just | dropped the whole line, and we missed the "Lifetime buy" option by a | couple days. Do you drop the product, or do you redesign it? DO you | spend days or weeks tracking down surplus parts through a broker that | may or may not be good, and risk bad PR when they have a high failure | rate in the field? Been there, done that. The tee shirt was NLA. | | Warmest regards, | John | -- | When Viagra fails to work--you are DOOMED!!! | | | There is your problem. You want a fast cure for every perceived | problem. | | -- | Former professional electron wrangler. | | Michael A. Terrell | Central Florida |
#8
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You have no idea what you are talking about, And there Michael, you have defined Johns problem. Richard fed him a question he couldn't answer and he crept off with a lame excuse of pressing work until he thought everyone had forgotten about it. I was just celebrating, when someone else fed him and he's back again in full force. If he's ignored, eventually, he'll go and bother someone else on someone elses newsgroup. You don't argue with children, don't feed the troll. W4ZCB |
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