) writes:

While I am more than willing to test this setup out for my brother on a
pair of CB radios, I told him I might need an STA from the FCC to
communicate data on CB channel 40. He tells me that in an emergency,
anyone can use any frequencies they want, any power, any mode.

I think this is a misreading of the rules.

Yes, if someone's ship is sinking, or someone is lost in the mountains,
it is far better to use what's available than die. But, I seem to
recall some cases in the US where someone just blasted away, and it
was deemed later that the emergency was not serious enough.

But, the scenario you are talking about is not the same thing. You
aren't talking about someone trying anything to save themselves, you
are talking about organized emergency work. And once that starts happening,
you can't have anything goes, for the same reasons that there are
rules to regulate radio under non-emergency conditions.

If you blast away at any frequency or any power, then you could
so easily interfere with some other legitimate emergency communication.
Your communication may not be more important than someone else's, and
hence frequency coordination is just as important.

It has been long argued that one reason to keep amateur radio around
is that in the case of a big emergency, it's relatively easy to put
amateur radio to rest, and then you get some big chunks of spectrum
that won't be used for necessary or emergency communication. IN other
words, using amateur radio frequencies is one scenario that is already
planned if the emergency is important enough (aside from it being
used as auxiliary communication with hams using their existing
equipment.

But, life goes on, and you can't superimpose a lot of communication
onto frequencies that are needed for existing communication needs
which won't go away when an emergency comes along.

And on a completely other note, as others have pointed out, even
if an existing communication band is the only choice, there are far
better choices than the 27MHz band. A big problem of that band
is that when the skip is in, it's made fairly useless because
distant stations come in nice and strong. And likewise, you
want a band that's good for local communication, and the fact
that you can get great range under good conditions on 10meters
is not the same as getting good reliable local communication.


Michael VE2BVW

wrote:
All,

I've got a brother who works for a consulting firm whose main customer
is Homeland Secrity.

What the feds want to do is to be able to communicate mil-spec digital
packets over low power links in the middle of a disaster-hit area
between squads of Guards deployed across a destroyed city.



Wow, looks like consultants are the same the world over - come up with
lunatic schemes, and get paid lots of money for them.

Tell him to get a real job - it will pay less, but he wont be held
responsible after the next major stuff up.

And tell him to buy a text book on - well, just about anything except
self-promotion - he doesnt seem to know very much. Probably why hes a
consultant. Is he an accountant?

And dont the National Guard units already have radios - they have been
issued to military units since, lets say, 1918 or therabouts.....

What a wonderful scenario - due to basic functional stupidity, the
disaster plan is contingent on being able to commandeer radios from
stores, and , with a swiss army knife, modify them for data
communications. There is, of course, a team of trained technicians
with the advancing relief workers who can do this.The data comms gear
is already with the people trying to get it to work on the commandeered
radios.......

Get real people - this is either a post from someone taking the mickey
out of you guys, or, if it is a real, serous idea - make sure you dont
need any external help if a disaster does happen in your area.....
sounds like organising a frozen chicken raffle would be straining their
ability..

Andrew VK3BFA.

And tell him to buy a text book on - well, just about anything except
self-promotion - he doesnt seem to know very much. Probably why hes a
consultant. Is he an accountant?

Nope, a geoscientist.

Andrew VK3BFA wrote:


And tell him to buy a text book on - well, just about anything except
self-promotion - he doesnt seem to know very much. Probably why hes a
consultant. Is he an accountant?

Nope, my brother is a geophysicist. I'm the electronics person.

The Eternal Squire

wrote:
Andrew VK3BFA wrote:


And tell him to buy a text book on - well, just about anything except
self-promotion - he doesnt seem to know very much. Probably why hes a
consultant. Is he an accountant?

Nope, my brother is a geophysicist. I'm the electronics person.

The Eternal Squire

Then what is he doing consulting? - has his academic discipline got
ANYTHING to do with the subject?

And you, sir, have been told, repeatedly, by ex military comms people
(amongst others) thats its just a plain downright, stupid, time
wasting, idiotic, non feasible "idea".

Does it need to be spelt out any clearer than that?

What dont you understand?

Andrew VK3BFA.

Andrew VK3BFA wrote:
And you, sir, have been told, repeatedly, by ex military comms people
(amongst others) thats its just a plain downright, stupid, time
wasting, idiotic, non feasible "idea".

Does it need to be spelt out any clearer than that?

What dont you understand?

Seriously, hams have long been responsible for taking time wasting
idiotic non feasible "ideas" and VERY occasionally turning them into
serious modes of communications.

I agree that in this particular case the original idea has several
enormous flaws. But with some of the modifications suggested here I
think there may be something of some value in some emergency
circumstances.

Certainly the professionals who set up digitally trunked comm systems
have a less than stellar track record at actual success ( do NOT
confuse with "contractual success") and I have a large chip on my
shoulder regarding ALL the billions of dollars that they've wasted at
taxpayer expense. Not to mention the distortions they've caused to
frequency allocations that actually WERE previously useful.

And you would be SERIOUSLY surprised at some of the far stupider flawed
ideas that are being funded by government agencies.

Tim.

On 18 Jun 2006 10:41:25 -0700,
wrote:
What the feds want to do is to be able to communicate mil-spec digital
packets over low power links in the middle of a disaster-hit area
between squads of Guards deployed across a destroyed city.
[...]
Suggestions?

I suggest that you consider using the unlicensed MURS band for this.
Unfortunately you cannot just walk in to a walmart or radioshack and
grab a MURS radio. Rather visit rkleef.com and look at the MURS22
units, or google for the "dakota alert" MURS radios.

Good luck,
--John

wrote in message
oups.com...
All,

I've got a brother who works for a consulting firm whose main customer
is Homeland Secrity.

What the feds want to do is to be able to communicate mil-spec digital
packets over low power links in the middle of a disaster-hit area
between squads of Guards deployed across a destroyed city.

They cannot assume that hams and ham equipment will be available, and
they do not want to carry heavy equipment into a city. They want to be
able to use equipment that they can readily commandeer from stores such
as Radio Shack.

That pretty much means CB radios. I have heard of hams working DX
using 5 watts of PSK on 10 meters using poor antennas, so that gives me
the idea that Guard units could form medium range mobile networks using
5 watts of PSK on 11 meters using wires dropped off bridges.

Eventually the hams that do get on the scene could set up a CB to HF
gateway so that the packets could make it out from the Guards to the
NGOs.

While I am more than willing to test this setup out for my brother on a
pair of CB radios, I told him I might need an STA from the FCC to
communicate data on CB channel 40. He tells me that in an emergency,
anyone can use any frequencies they want, any power, any mode. I told
him true, but that does not help me as an OEM getting fined for testing
out an emergency scenario in a nonemergency situation.

Suggestions?

The Eternal Squire

IMHO The feds have plenty of radio equipment with comms operators that could
be shipped to disaster hit area faster than your average guards unit could
adapt/setup a purloined unit.

Brian 2W0BDW wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
All,

I've got a brother who works for a consulting firm whose main customer
is Homeland Secrity.

What the feds want to do is to be able to communicate mil-spec digital
packets over low power links in the middle of a disaster-hit area
between squads of Guards deployed across a destroyed city.

They cannot assume that hams and ham equipment will be available, and
they do not want to carry heavy equipment into a city. They want to be
able to use equipment that they can readily commandeer from stores such
as Radio Shack.

That pretty much means CB radios. I have heard of hams working DX
using 5 watts of PSK on 10 meters using poor antennas, so that gives me
the idea that Guard units could form medium range mobile networks using
5 watts of PSK on 11 meters using wires dropped off bridges.

Eventually the hams that do get on the scene could set up a CB to HF
gateway so that the packets could make it out from the Guards to the
NGOs.

While I am more than willing to test this setup out for my brother on a
pair of CB radios, I told him I might need an STA from the FCC to
communicate data on CB channel 40. He tells me that in an emergency,
anyone can use any frequencies they want, any power, any mode. I told
him true, but that does not help me as an OEM getting fined for testing
out an emergency scenario in a nonemergency situation.

Suggestions?

The Eternal Squire

IMHO The feds have plenty of radio equipment with comms operators that could
be shipped to disaster hit area faster than your average guards unit could
adapt/setup a purloined unit.


Thank you all for your suggestions.

This is not a hoax. But I too find the need sufficiently implausible
that I feel a little bit queasy taking R&D fees for a cause like this
at $50 per hour. The only reason that I'm not mentioning the
consulting firm is that I could stand to get paid... and any money is
better than no money. And if I'm the king's coin then I ought to make
it work.

I agree, Truck stops are a very good idea for commandeering CB's, but
you only find those in the exurbs.. Yes, other commercial radio
services could and maybe even should be drafted into this. The squad
lead could then determine the tradeoffs based on the availability of
foraged equipment.

Allison, your idea of using the dummy loads to simulate fading over
distance is OUTSTANDING. I'll do it!

Using dummy loads as a demo, I could then get the consulting firm to
ask the FCC for an STA for field tests.

For my test rigs, I'm intending to plug in a laptop sound card I/O into
the SSB mic and headphone jacks. Therefore no type acceptance needed
because no mods.

My brother says ideally in the scenario, each squad leader should only
need to carry a mini-CDROM in his or her pocket. The squad lead could
then commandeer a laptop, an SSB CB radio, and then use an abandoned
automobile as an electric generator for the laptop and radio. Antenna
would be flung over a 3 story office building.

One of the reasons for this scenario is to lighten the overall squad
load and thereby increase the speed of response. That way each squad
could break into an abandoned store and then set up a first responder
posts.

wrote:

snip

My brother says ideally in the scenario, each squad leader should only
need to carry a mini-CDROM in his or her pocket. The squad lead could
then commandeer a laptop, an SSB CB radio, and then use an abandoned
automobile as an electric generator for the laptop and radio. Antenna
would be flung over a 3 story office building.

Let's see, all you have to do is find a bunch of laptops with 12V
adapters, a bunch of CB radios with documentation on the mic input,
a soldering iron to make up a mic/laptop interface cable (assuming
you can use the existing mic cable connector).

The only problem left is how to get the abandoned automobile to the
top of the 3 story office building (if any are left standing in this
disaster).

You know, sometimes as a consultant you just have to find a way to
tell the customer he is crazy but you have an altenate idea that
they might like in acceptable language.

One of the reasons for this scenario is to lighten the overall squad
load and thereby increase the speed of response. That way each squad
could break into an abandoned store and then set up a first responder
posts.

Seems to me it would be easier to come up with a plan to stockpile
and distribute standard squad radios the troops already know how to use.

But I'm just a retired Army signal guy, so what would I know?

--
Jim Pennino

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