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#11
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Jesus knew about ham radio guys!
Michael Coslo wrote:
Here are some ideas: The old vertical as a flagpole. [ Etc. ] Mind if I play devils advocate here for a minute? Where is it written that as Licensed Amateur Radio Operators we have a fair pass to ignore the rules? What part of "no antennas" in the CC&R you signed do you not understand? "But but but, I'm a Ham radio operator!" I'm sorry, I just keep seeing this same thing over and over and over and I don't buy it. (Along with, since I have a license, I don't need a permit to put up a tower.) Jeff-1.0 wa6vfi |
#12
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Jesus knew about ham radio guys!
On Jul 16, 3:30 pm, Michael Coslo wrote:
wrote: (insert standard "I Am Not A Lawyer" disclaimer HERE) I'm still not a lawyer... On Jul 14, 4:18 pm, KC4UAI wrote: On Jul 11, 8:45 pm, "KØHB" wrote: There was big money at stake because the satellite TV folks saw a huge and expanding part of the TV market being off-limits to them because of no-satellite-dish CC&Rs. Sure, and considering that the antenna restrictions serve d to monopolize access to the cable industry. It is hard to argue that allowing satellite dishes wasn't a fair and equitable thing to do. There was also the issue that watching TV in one's home, be it a tiny studio apartment or a giant estate or anything in between, was a right of any resident, rental, owner, condo, etc. Nobody wanted to deny *that* right! Amateur radio doesn't have the same protections. The problem is, who determines what's reasonable? In some places a clothesline in the back yard is considered an eyesore! A mile or so from us, there is one of those places. No clotheslines, no kids stuff in yards, all landscaping must be approved. Almost everything about your home life is tightly regulated. People who live in a place that restrictive deserve it. Agreed. As I peruse through the real estate guides, I'm struck by the number of homes that are available that do not have restrictive covenants. Even the village that I live in does not have ban antennas. So I have a nice woodsey atmosphere, and can do most of the things I want. I wasn't allowed to set up my still to make corn squeezins! hehe But my point is that if people are looking for a house, there are options. It's also very important to read all that boring stuff. I wonder how many Hams who live in a place that prohibits antennas read the fineprint. There are plenty of unrestricted places on the market *now*, because of the RE market slump and the mortgage crisis. But not so long ago, it was a different game. At least around here, houses would often be sold the afternoon they went on the market. It was not unusual for a house to have multiple offers above the asking price with a preapproved mortgage and no conditions on the offer. In such a market, simply finding out if a place was antenna-restricted is a real problem. There are deed restrictions on my 1950-built house (none address antennas) but to find them out my RE lawyer had to go to the county courthouse and ask the right person for them. You can only buy a house that is for sale at the time you are looking to buy. If you happen to need to move at a time when the market is hot, you're at a distinct disadvantage. Another tactic is to ask if you can put up an antenna, and if the answer is no, then politely say, "Too bad-see you later!". If the real estate agent loses a few sales for something silly like that, then they will start looking into it. Yes and no. For one thing, *NEVER* take a verbal response as binding in such a situation. Just because the seller or the agent says "yes" or "we can get that changed" does NOT mean there are no restrictions! You and your RE attorney need to see the actual documents themselves and go over every word to make sure there are no restrictions. For example, the word "antenna" may not appear anywhere. But there may be a restriction that says "No structure may exceed a height of 35 feet" (or whatever). A tower may be considered a structure in that situation, so if you want a 50 foot tower, you're out of luck. Deed covenants and restrictions are usually designed so that they cannot easily be removed even if all parties want to remove them. The usual way it works is that each buyer agrees, when buying the property, to pass them on to the next buyer. So the seller, and the seller's agent, may not have the right to remove them even if s/he wants to! Once the sale is done and you've moved in, it's too late. IMHO, one of the biggest mistakes many people make is assuming that because they've read the Constitution, they don't need a lawyer for things like buying a house. In many situations that's a sure-fire path to problems. Some other problems: 1) A considerable number of hams today were not hams when they moved into their current homes. Antennas weren't an issue when the moved - now they are. 2) Considerations such as cost and location are not the same everywhere. "Move to the country" isn't always an option if doing so means one or both spouses' jobs are going to be at the end of a long and expensive commute. School district and access to various services (like health care) are considerations too. 3) In my limited experience, antenna-restricted properties tend to be less expensive than unrestricted ones. This flies in the face of the old "property values" argument, but it makes sense when you consider that many restricted places have HOA fees and such, and that the restrictions often make doing even simple things expensive (you have to use a certain paint, buy exact replacements for fixtures like doors and windows, and get approval for *everything*. So if you are on a limited budget (who isn't?), the restricted properties may appear to be a better deal for your money. There are bigger, newer and more modern houses near me that are priced the same as the little boxes made of ticky-tacky I and my neighbors live in. But those houses are restricted in ways that ours aren't. Besides pushing Congress, one of the things I think we hams could do to help the process is to never refer to amateur radio as "a hobby" or even worse, "just a hobby". While most hams do radio simply as an avocation, IMHO the word "hobby" carries with it a sort of meaning that it's not a serious thing worthy of protection. You'll never hear folks who do sports or art nonprofessionally refer to those activities as "just a hobby". Nor will the term be used by volunteers who donate their time and efforts to a variety of causes. IOW, "hobbies" don't get the kind of respect we want amateur radio to have. If we hams describe amateur radio as "just a hobby", the folks who want to restrict us may think "well, if they say it's just a hobby, what's the problem with a few restrictions?" and "there are all sorts of hobbies that these homes don't accomodate, like raising horses, target shooting, or pleasure boating with a boat that won't fit in the garage. What's different about your radio hobby?" You can be sure the satellite TV people pushing for the OTARD ruling never, ever referred to watching TV as "a hobby", even though their viewers don't get paid to watch TV. I agree! Here are some ideas: The old vertical as a flagpole. Its a sorry bunch who wouldn't approve a flagpole. A few years back, a WW2 veteran in his '80s put up a flagpole in his yard. Every morning he'd raise Old Glory, every night he'd take it down. He had two grandkids on active duty in Iraq. The HOA went after him because freestanding flagpoles were specifically prohibited in the rules. Being in the paper and on TV did not faze them; the rules said no flagpoles and they were going to enforce those rules. I think the WW2 vet moved. Most multiband verticals can be tilted over with kits sold for that purpose. Maybe that can be hid though the day. This is a very good idea. While it may not be fun to go outside and install the antenna before each operating session, it's a solution. One homebrew way would be to bury a pipe vertically in the ground and cut it off at the surface. A cap would keep debris out when not in use. The antenna assembly consists of the vertical and a piece of pipe that will just fit in the buried pipe. Quick connections to the coax and radial system (both buried) complete it. To go on the air, the cap is removed, the antenna assembly raised and the bottom end put in the hole, and the connections made. If the house has plastic gutters, run a wire around them. I'm sure that is part of a defrosting system - Really, it could be! The trick is to make the setup so that it is easy to set up in the dark. And take down. However even such solutions may not work in some areas. The Gladys Kravitz factor looms large in them. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
#13
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Jesus knew about ham radio guys!
On Jul 15, 8:16 pm, Dick Grady AC7EL wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:32:00 EDT, wrote: one of the things I think we hams could do to help the process is to never refer to amateur radio as "a hobby" or even worse, "just a hobby". While most hams do radio simply as an avocation, IMHO the word "hobby" carries with it a sort of meaning that it's not a serious thing worthy of protection. You'll never hear folks who do sports or art nonprofessionally refer to those activities as "just a hobby". Nor will the term be used by volunteers who donate their time and efforts to a variety of causes. IOW, "hobbies" don't get the kind of respect we want amateur radio to have. If we hams describe amateur radio as "just a hobby", the folks who want to restrict us may think "well, if they say it's just a hobby, what's the problem with a few restrictions?" and "there are all sorts of hobbies that these homes don't accomodate, like raising horses, target shooting, or pleasure boating with a boat that won't fit in the garage. What's different about your radio hobby?" Then what do we call it? Avocation? Pasttime? no, none of these ter ms seem appropriate, either. We don't need to call it anything other than "Amateur Radio". The person who gardens/landscapes doesn't use the word "hobby", s/he says "I'm a gardener" and that's it. The amateur artist who paints, sculpts, does pottery, photography, woodwork or any of a range of other activities does not use the word "hobby" either. I know! It's emergency preparation and training. Now that's sounds impressive.. We don't need to sound impressive. All we need to do is not sound apologetic. "Just a hobby" sounds self-denigrating to me. Part 97 does not use the word "hobby". Neither should we. Consider the following conversations: Conversation 1 "What's that wire up there?" "It's my ham radio antenna" "What's ham radio?" "It's just a hobby where I talk to other ham radio operators." "Why would you want to do that? Don't you have a telephone and the internet?" Conversation 2 "What's that wire up there?" "It's the antenna for my Amateur Radio station" "What's Amateur Radio?" "It's a form of noncommercial radio by which licensed radio operators all over the world communicate with each other using a wide variety of methods and technologies." Which do you think sounds better to a non-ham? 73 de Jim, N2EY |
#14
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Jesus knew about ham radio guys!
Jeffrey D Angus wrote in
: Michael Coslo wrote: Here are some ideas: The old vertical as a flagpole. [ Etc. ] Mind if I play devils advocate here for a minute? Where is it written that as Licensed Amateur Radio Operators we have a fair pass to ignore the rules? Well, we don't really. I only offer advice to those who might have made a mistake. What part of "no antennas" in the CC&R you signed do you not understand? "But but but, I'm a Ham radio operator!" I'm sorry, I just keep seeing this same thing over and over and over and I don't buy it. I think that in most cases, the Ham didn't read the fine print, or they might not have been a Ham when they bought the house. I've been a long term advocate of knowing what you are getting into. I'm one of thos insufferable geeks that irritate the lawyers and other people present by reading over the fine print. I'm a quick reader though - it is 5 to 10 minutes well spent. I even read equipment manuals, heheh. I wouldn't buy a house in a neighborhood that wouldn't allow mw to put up an antenna. But I know that not everyone is so careful - and I don't think that they should be punished forever. I think that the fight to give them access to the airwaves is a good fight. All that being said, who would want to live in those neighborhoods anyway? All we have to do is keep the grass cut, the house in good repair, and no junk cars sitting around. And our neighborhood is a showpiece. My antennas notwithstanding. (Along with, since I have a license, I don't need a permit to put up a tower.) Well now there is a different kettle of fish. A tower can be a major liability. We can have them here, but they must be approved by an engineer. And I agree with that, even if they take the arbitrary "100 percent height fall radius circle". I don't know if any tower has fallen that way. At least I wouldn't have to fight the township just to put one up. - 73 de Mike N3LI - |
#15
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Jesus knew about ham radio guys!
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#16
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Jesus knew about ham radio guys!
On Jul 16, 7:45 pm, wrote:
On Jul 16, 3:30 pm, Michael Coslo wrote: There are plenty of unrestricted places on the market *now*, because of the RE market slump and the mortgage crisis. Maybe in your area, but where I live CC&R's are the rule and they will all pretty much restrict antennas for ham radio use. It all depends on when the average house was built in your area. The standard way this works here in the Dallas area is developer buys large tract of land, applies CC&R's to the tract, subdivides and develops the land to sell the houses he builds. He throws in a pool and play ground across from the model homes which is owned by the HOA that gets created by the CC&R's. 99-100% of the new homes available in the area I live will come with CC&R's based on these boilerplates. (Personally I know of NO new homes in my current price range for sale with 10 miles of my house that won't have CC&R's.) I've seen only ONE subdivision in my area that would have allowed antennas in their CC&R's but it was a very special case. The CC&R's didn't originate with a builder, but where adopted by the land owners AFTER the subdivision was plated. Those CC&R's where a model of simplicity and basically dealt with keeping unsightly things to a minimum. (Keep your house painted a normal color and in good repair, no junk cars, lawns mowed, fences in good repair etc.) The problem is that the big builders have boiler plate CC&R's that change very little between subdivisions. All of these boiler plates contain restrictions on antennas and are constructed to never expire. More and more land is becoming off limits to ham radio antennas and this is a bigger problem in areas that have been under active development for the last 20-30 years such as Dallas. Therefore I have to object to the "just move" response to the plight of hams in CC&R communities. It may be an option for some, but for others it may not. At some point I may choose to move, and CC&R restrictions on antennas will likely be something I look at. I can tell you that I won't be able to buy a comparable house for the same money without CC&R's in Murphy or the surrounding area. There are areas that allow them, but they do not compare with where I live in price or age. Yes, I could drive 40 more miles a day and perhaps find something that would work, but with the cost of driving these days I’d be moving into less of a house for sure to make ends meet. In addition to this, all the CC&R's I've read in my area are usually drafted to NEVER expire. The only way they will go away is if all the land owners agree to it (fat chance of that). This land will forever be of limits for antennas. Year after year as new subdivisions are built, more and more land will be CC&R's restricted unless they are limited by law. As an aside on CC&R's which are all the rage... There are fundamental problems with CC&R's and pesky HOA's under the current law. Depending on how they are drafted, they can end up causing some seemingly very unreasonable consequences for homeowners that may not be obvious by reading them. Personally, I think they should be put under some really strict legal limits and the powers of HOA's strictly limited. But all that is another issue... All in all I can only hope that this CC&R Craze comes to an end pretty soon. I don't think they are as much a benifit to landowners as they are thought to be. But until they fall out of favor to the public or get pre-empted by law they will only increase in coverage. Personally, that scares me. -= Bob =- |
#17
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Jesus knew about ham radio guys!
"KC4UAI" wrote
Maybe in your area, but where I live CC&R's are the rule and they will all pretty much restrict antennas for ham radio use. It all depends on when the average house was built in your area. All of what you wrote applies to housing here in Tucson. Seems that only if you're a multi-millionaire can you buy land (if there's any left) and build your own custom home... completely outside of restrictions (other than towers, etc.) I live in one of these CC&R developments, and I'm fortunate to be able to have something of an antenna in my backyard: an MFJ Hi-Q 10-30m Loop on a 5' pole. While it's VERY visible from the street (and is quite an effective antenna), over the 10+ years I've lived here no one's said a word. The CC&R's state "no antennas without permission." I never asked. That statement was written, BTW, before the FCC demanded the allowance of tv antennas and satellite dishes. When guests ask what my [MFJ antenna] is, I tell them it's my yard sculpture. I'm fortunate to be under an HOA that's more relaxed than a lot of the others I've heard about. N7SO |
#18
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Jesus knew about ham radio guys!
"Howard Lester" wrote in
acomip: "KC4UAI" wrote Maybe in your area, but where I live CC&R's are the rule and they will all pretty much restrict antennas for ham radio use. It all depends on when the average house was built in your area. All of what you wrote applies to housing here in Tucson. Seems that only if you're a multi-millionaire can you buy land (if there's any left) and build your own custom home... completely outside of restrictions (other than towers, etc.) I can find a lot of houses in this area that don't allow much of anything too. I'd respectfully suggest that people might look a little harder based on the fact that a whole lot of people in this area believe that even my neighborhood will not allow antennas, and don't believe me when I tell them it does. If it is true that there is no land available in either Dallas or Tucson that would allow antennas, then that is indeed sad. I simply would not live there. - 73 de Mike N3LI - |
#19
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Jesus knew about ham radio guys!
Dick Grady AC7EL wrote in
: On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:32:00 EDT, wrote: Besides pushing Congress, one of the things I think we hams could do to help the process is to never refer to amateur radio as "a hobby" or even worse, "just a hobby". While most hams do radio simply as an avocation, IMHO the word "hobby" carries with it a sort of meaning that it's not a serious thing worthy of protection. Then what do we call it? Avocation? Pasttime? no, none of these terms seem appropriate, either. I know! It's emergency preparation and training. Now that's sounds impressive.. 73 de Dick, AC7EL How about "service". The Amateur Radio Service! 73 de KC1IH |
#20
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Jesus knew about ham radio guys!
"Mike Coslo" wrote
If it is true that there is no land available in either Dallas or Tucson that would allow antennas, then that is indeed sad. I simply would not live there. Mike, there is land and housing in Tucson that allows antennas, but in general, as far as I know either you have to be "out in the county," or in an older, very established neighborhood. That seems to be "in general," as I'm sure there are exceptions. But if you want a new, modest home in a typical family-oriented subdivision, it is not at all likely you'll find one that allows antennas. If you've "got money," then your options are greater. Howard N7SO |
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