wrote:

It seems to me that a lot of amateurs insist on a new house, or at
least a newer house, meaning something no older than 10-20 years.
Older homes are simply off the radar, for some reason. Is it just me,
or is this a real trend? What's behind it?

A lot of it might be in heating and cooling costs. Most newer homes are
super insulated--built with 2x6 walls, wrapped with Tyvek and have
joints sealed with expanding foam. Many of them offer geothermal
heating/cooling systems as well. One of my pals lives in Indiana. His
total energy bills this past year have averaged $125 per month with his
geothermal system. That is for a five year old, all electric home with
a geothermal system. That isn't bad for lights, cooking, heating water,
watching TV, ham radio, computers, etc.

I've owned only two homes in my life. My Cincinnati home was a full
masonry brick house (plaster inside directly attached to two courses of
brick). That place was costing me $200-$250 per month during the winter
for natural gas in the late seventies/early eighties. I don't like to
think about what the gas bill might be these days. That's the only
place I ever lived where I could find frost on a closet wall on a cold day.

Dave K8MN

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 15:01:45 EDT, Dave Heil
wrote:

Here in Marshall County, *no permit of any kind* is required to put up a
tower.

When Beaverton decided to rewrite its Wireless Communications Facility
ordinance about 6 years ago, I made sure that I got on the committee
that was doing it (my bona fides were that as an attorney I had
drafted several in California). When it came to Ham Radio issues, it
was like shooting fish in a barrel - besides myself, the ATT Wireless
rep was a ham, and best of all, the Assistant City Attorney handling
it was the son of an active ham. As a result, no use or zoning permit
is required for towers under 70 feet, and only notification is
required for towers above that height. Building permits are something
else, though. The main problem here are CC&Rs and HOA issues.
--

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
ARRL Volunteer Counsel

email: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net

Dave Heil wrote:
wrote:

It seems to me that a lot of amateurs insist on a new house, or at
least a newer house, meaning something no older than 10-20 years.
Older homes are simply off the radar, for some reason. Is it just me,
or is this a real trend? What's behind it?

A lot of it might be in heating and cooling costs. Most newer homes are
super insulated--built with 2x6 walls, wrapped with Tyvek and have
joints sealed with expanding foam.

I wish I could say the same for my area. Many of the largest, most
expensive houses have very little insulation. There is a dead giveaway -
after a snowstorm, they are the first houses to lose the snow on the
roof. A good bit of my wife's work comes from designing remodels on 2 or
3 year old McMansions.

I think maybe that during the 80's and early 90's home construction
related to insulation was pretty good, but as the housing market took
off, and people seemed to be willing to buy anything for any amount of
money, the quality dropped.


Many of them offer geothermal
heating/cooling systems as well. One of my pals lives in Indiana. His
total energy bills this past year have averaged $125 per month with his
geothermal system. That is for a five year old, all electric home with
a geothermal system. That isn't bad for lights, cooking, heating water,
watching TV, ham radio, computers, etc.

It is truly impressive what can be done with a little work. The caveat
it that when you have a tightly sealed house, you have to be very
careful about chemical exposure. My sister has something fairly similar.
She lives in a large modified A frame with one side all glass. Has a
wind generator, Geothermal heat system, and uses a wood pellet stove for
the comfy glow you get from radiant heat. She lives on the first hill
south of Lake Erie shore near Erie, so there is always some wind.


I would love to be able to put up a tower in the back yard



I've owned only two homes in my life. My Cincinnati home was a full
masonry brick house (plaster inside directly attached to two courses of
brick). That place was costing me $200-$250 per month during the winter
for natural gas in the late seventies/early eighties. I don't like to
think about what the gas bill might be these days. That's the only
place I ever lived where I could find frost on a closet wall on a cold day.

brrrr.. Was that the averaged out bill per month?

Michael Coslo wrote:
Dave Heil wrote:
wrote:

It seems to me that a lot of amateurs insist on a new house, or at
least a newer house, meaning something no older than 10-20 years.
Older homes are simply off the radar, for some reason. Is it just me,
or is this a real trend? What's behind it?

A lot of it might be in heating and cooling costs. Most newer homes
are super insulated--built with 2x6 walls, wrapped with Tyvek and have
joints sealed with expanding foam.

I wish I could say the same for my area. Many of the largest, most
expensive houses have very little insulation. There is a dead giveaway -
after a snowstorm, they are the first houses to lose the snow on the
roof. A good bit of my wife's work comes from designing remodels on 2 or
3 year old McMansions.

Wow, Mike, I don't know of many houses anywhere which are being built
with other than 2x6 walls. Ceiling insulation is, of course, one of the
cheapest and easiest things to fix. You can always add more. It is
tougher to do much about wall insulation if the wall is already full of
the stuff.


I think maybe that during the 80's and early 90's home construction
related to insulation was pretty good, but as the housing market took
off, and people seemed to be willing to buy anything for any amount of
money, the quality dropped.

Maybe folks in some areas aren't paying enough attention to the plans
they see from their contractor.


Many of them offer geothermal
heating/cooling systems as well. One of my pals lives in Indiana.
His total energy bills this past year have averaged $125 per month
with his geothermal system. That is for a five year old, all electric
home with a geothermal system. That isn't bad for lights, cooking,
heating water, watching TV, ham radio, computers, etc.

It is truly impressive what can be done with a little work. The caveat
it that when you have a tightly sealed house, you have to be very
careful about chemical exposure.

It can be an issue, especially for the first couple of years with the
new flooring, carpeting and the like.

My sister has something fairly similar.
She lives in a large modified A frame with one side all glass. Has a
wind generator, Geothermal heat system, and uses a wood pellet stove for
the comfy glow you get from radiant heat. She lives on the first hill
south of Lake Erie shore near Erie, so there is always some wind.

She's a good bit straight north of us. I wouldn't want to do an Erie
winter.

In talking to those who know, those geothermal systems can easily be
retrofitted to existing homes. They cost a couple of thousand more than
if installed at the time the home is built. For small yards, the drill
vertical holes rather than horizontal trenching.


I would love to be able to put up a tower in the back yard

And there's simply no way to do it? Did I miss something? I thought
you had no antenna restrictions. The Indiana fellow I wrote about is
W8RHM. He's in farming country near Milan and is populating the first
of his two heavy duty crank up towers. Roger will have hard line runs
from the tower bases to the house. He has metal bulkheads fitted with
antenna and rotor cable disconnects.



I've owned only two homes in my life. My Cincinnati home was a full
masonry brick house (plaster inside directly attached to two courses
of brick). That place was costing me $200-$250 per month during the
winter for natural gas in the late seventies/early eighties. I don't
like to think about what the gas bill might be these days. That's the
only place I ever lived where I could find frost on a closet wall on a
cold day.

brrrr.. Was that the averaged out bill per month?

No, that was the typical monthly bill in winter. I never got on the
even billing plan. I liked having lower rates in summer for a few months.

I eventually installed a wood stove system but that was messy coming
into the basement and messay hauling the ashes out. The upstairs never
got warm enough at night though the first floor and the basement shack
were toasty. Almost all of the basement except for a 10x10 storage area
and the laundry room was ham shack. Collecting boat anchor rigs takes
lots of ROOM.

Dave K8MN

David G. Nagel wrote:
Dave Heil wrote:
Phil Kane wrote:

We had a builder put up a MaxiMansion near here for his own residence.
They had to put in a new gas line up the street to provide enough gas
to heat the place. He has his own pole-pig too. The price was
several mills three years ago.

Out here on Signal Hill, I have to share a pole pig with the neighbor
across the road.

The house across the road from that is
35 rooms occupied by a couple in their 90s - the largest car dealer in
the Portland area. I would suspect that both of those places have
live-in help.

See! I could live in one of those places--as live-in help.

Isn't it nice to have money?

I'd love to have the opportunity to find out if wealth could mess up
my life. Though indoor plumbing came to this area long ago, there's
still a WPA-built privy on our property. When I can afford to do it
up in gold leaf, I will know that I've arrived.

Dave K8MN

Your name isn't Al Gore and you haven't purchased 10,000 acres of carbon
credits in West Ubanga Banga.....

You may write those things on my grave stone!

I saw Al's daddy once when he flew into the Palm Beach County airport in
late 1957 or early 1958.

I plan to create some massive carbon footprints when the Consol Coal
Company buys me out (that could be anywhere from now until eight years
away). Those carbon diggin' rascals are buying people out right and
left at rather handsome prices. When my carbon ship comes in, I plan to
live out my days in showy ostentation. I'd planned on two of those
heavy duty crank up towers with the tilt feature but if Consol's price
is right, I may opt for three. Of course you always have to plan for
the event that the coal company changes its mind. If that happens, I'll
be a little less ostentatious and will just retain my two Rohn 25 towers
and will continue to burn free natural gas like it was goin' out of style.

73,

Dave K8MN

Dave Heil wrote:
Michael Coslo wrote:
Dave Heil wrote:
wrote:

It seems to me that a lot of amateurs insist on a new house, or at
least a newer house, meaning something no older than 10-20 years.
Older homes are simply off the radar, for some reason. Is it just me,
or is this a real trend? What's behind it?

A lot of it might be in heating and cooling costs. Most newer homes
are super insulated--built with 2x6 walls, wrapped with Tyvek and
have joints sealed with expanding foam.

I wish I could say the same for my area. Many of the largest, most
expensive houses have very little insulation. There is a dead giveaway
- after a snowstorm, they are the first houses to lose the snow on the
roof. A good bit of my wife's work comes from designing remodels on 2
or 3 year old McMansions.

Wow, Mike, I don't know of many houses anywhere which are being built
with other than 2x6 walls. Ceiling insulation is, of course, one of the
cheapest and easiest things to fix. You can always add more. It is
tougher to do much about wall insulation if the wall is already full of
the stuff.

It's the poor construction, not the specific size of the walls.



I think maybe that during the 80's and early 90's home construction
related to insulation was pretty good, but as the housing market took
off, and people seemed to be willing to buy anything for any amount of
money, the quality dropped.

Maybe folks in some areas aren't paying enough attention to the plans
they see from their contractor.

And how! Here we have had people "build" a house and move to th earea
after it was finished. Did you ever see those commercials where someone
says "Just tell me what to do!" That was them. In boom times, some not
very good contractors show up, and when coupled with those inattentive
buyers, a lot of really poorly constructed houses have been put up.



Many of them offer geothermal
heating/cooling systems as well. One of my pals lives in Indiana.
His total energy bills this past year have averaged $125 per month
with his geothermal system. That is for a five year old, all
electric home with a geothermal system. That isn't bad for lights,
cooking, heating water, watching TV, ham radio, computers, etc.

It is truly impressive what can be done with a little work. The caveat
it that when you have a tightly sealed house, you have to be very
careful about chemical exposure.

It can be an issue, especially for the first couple of years with the
new flooring, carpeting and the like.

My sister has something fairly similar. She lives in a large modified
A frame with one side all glass. Has a wind generator, Geothermal heat
system, and uses a wood pellet stove for the comfy glow you get from
radiant heat. She lives on the first hill south of Lake Erie shore
near Erie, so there is always some wind.

She's a good bit straight north of us. I wouldn't want to do an Erie
winter.

She agrees! The odd thing about Erie is that the part right next to the
shore isn't too bad, but within a mile of the shore, it gets brutal. The
odd thing is that they hope for cold winters, so that the lake freezes
over and stops putting so much moisture in the air.

In the summer it is gorgeous though, so they get a little compensation.

In talking to those who know, those geothermal systems can easily be
retrofitted to existing homes. They cost a couple of thousand more than
if installed at the time the home is built. For small yards, the drill
vertical holes rather than horizontal trenching.


I would love to be able to put up a tower in the back yard

And there's simply no way to do it? Did I miss something? I thought
you had no antenna restrictions.

Oops, wrong context. I'd love to put up a tower in *her* back yard. It's
just about the highest place in that neck of the woods. Of course I'd
have to travel to Erie to do it.

I can still do it in our yard if I wanted to.


The Indiana fellow I wrote about is
W8RHM. He's in farming country near Milan and is populating the first
of his two heavy duty crank up towers. Roger will have hard line runs
from the tower bases to the house. He has metal bulkheads fitted with
antenna and rotor cable disconnects.

This sounds like an excellent setup all the way around - he should look
into giving tours! hi


I've owned only two homes in my life. My Cincinnati home was a full
masonry brick house (plaster inside directly attached to two courses
of brick). That place was costing me $200-$250 per month during the
winter for natural gas in the late seventies/early eighties. I don't
like to think about what the gas bill might be these days. That's
the only place I ever lived where I could find frost on a closet wall
on a cold day.

brrrr.. Was that the averaged out bill per month?

No, that was the typical monthly bill in winter. I never got on the
even billing plan. I liked having lower rates in summer for a few months.

Okay, that is still quite the bill for the time.

Don't you have access to Natural gas now from the gas company? Sounds
like Karma compensating for the earlier expense.


I eventually installed a wood stove system but that was messy coming
into the basement and messay hauling the ashes out. The upstairs never
got warm enough at night though the first floor and the basement shack
were toasty. Almost all of the basement except for a 10x10 storage area
and the laundry room was ham shack. Collecting boat anchor rigs takes
lots of ROOM.

Wood does indeed heat you several times - cutting it, splitting it,
stacking it, burning it, and hauling it out at the end. Yet still, I
like our fireplace.


- 73 de Mike N3LI -

"Michael Coslo" wrote

Wow, Mike, I don't know of many houses anywhere which are being built
with other than 2x6 walls. Ceiling insulation is, of course, one of the
cheapest and easiest things to fix. You can always add more. It is
tougher to do much about wall insulation if the wall is already full of
the stuff.

It's the poor construction, not the specific size of the walls.

Right. Apparently, regardless how much insulation is installed between the
studs, if the house isn't very well sealed, that insulation's effectiveness
is going to be reduced. I asked a builder in NY what their typical R-value
is. He said it's not about R-value, but how well the house is sealed, inside
and out. If I do have a new house built when I move to 1-land, it'll have
expanding foam insulation to make sure the exterior shell is all
well-sealed. That'll be done after the coax and ladder-line feed throughs
are installed, of course. :-)

Howard N7SO

KC4UAI wrote in
:

On Jul 22, 12:57 pm, Michael Coslo wrote:

Contrast that to demanding your right to put up whatever you
darn well
please, and if the neighbors don't like it, they can can it. We all
know which one works better.


Well I don't know about you but my wife has a LOT more to say about my
antenna aspirations than the neighbors ever will. She's not going to
allow anything she considers an eyesore to go up. She sees me gawking
at some of the antenna farms around and makes it clear I won't have
one that looks like that!

My XYL alsp takes a dim view of some of the more gaudy antennas. I've
bounced ideas off her, and over time have come up with what is
acceptable. I've ended up with wire dipoles, a J-pole for 2 meter
repeater work, and a Butternut vertical.

The Butternut was bought at a Hamfest for a paltry 35.00 It needed one
of the tube insulators and a HV cap. Simple stuff. I took a chance and we
made a deal if she didn't like it, I'd take it down. Oddly enough, it
didin't bother her as much as I thoght it would - it only got the "rolled
eyes" treatment. So we kept it.


Of course this puts me in a difficult situation. When I retire to the
country and get the 20 acres on the hill side. She's going to want
the house on the top of the hill and the antenna farm someplace else.

Doesn't she know that the best place is down the hill a bit? Warmer
in winter, and less likely to have lightning strikes? hehe

- 73 de Mike N3LI -

On Jul 24, 3:16�pm, Dave Heil wrote:
wrote:
It seems to me that a lot of amateurs insist on a new house, or at
least a newer house, meaning something no older than 10-20 years.

A lot of it might be in heating and cooling costs. �
Most newer homes are
super insulated--built with 2x6 walls, wrapped with Tyvek and have
joints sealed with expanding foam.

*Some* of them are. And the effectiveness of those things is highly
dependent on the quality of the work and the design of the house.
I've seen/heard of some pretty shoddy work in newer homes.

�Many of them offer geothermal
heating/cooling systems as well.

Geothermal is the way of the future for both A/C and heating in many
places.

�One of my pals lives in Indiana. �His
total energy bills this past year have averaged
$125 per month with his
geothermal system. �That is for a five year old,
all electric home with
a geothermal system. �That isn't bad for lights, cooking, heating
water, watching TV, ham radio, computers, etc.

But how many kWh per month?

The price of residential electricity varies all over the place in
CONUS; from almost 20 cents per kWh from ConEd to a nickle or so in
some parts of the South and Pacific Northwest. Imagine if gasoline was
$1 in some places and $4 in some other places, all in the USA.

There's also the issue of how big the place is, how many people live
there and how they live. Things such as how much laundry they generate
(kids who play certain sports tend to generate a lot of really
dirty laundry), and whether they use a clothesline can make a big
difference. Stuff like old inefficient appliances and leaving things
on/doors open can be real money-wasters.

Older homes can be refitted to improve their efficiency, too. New
double-insulate windows are not a big deal and can reduce maintenance
cost. Insulation can be blown into the walls of a frame house from the
inside or outside at low cost. Geothermal can be retrofitted too.

This all has a direct bearing on the subject, because too many folks
(IMHO) set their house-choice criteria too narrowly.

At the same time, as the price-of-electricity variation shows, what is
true in one place may not be true elsewhere. I know places where
$300,000 will buy you a big house on a big lot in an excellent
location, with all the modern stuff in excellent condition. And I know
other places, maybe an hour or two away, where $300,000 will get you a
tiny fixer-upper on a postage-stamp lot - if you're lucky.

I've owned only two homes in my life. �My Cincinnati home was
a full
masonry brick house (plaster inside directly attached to two
courses of
brick). �That place was costing me $200-$250 per month during
the winter
for natural gas in the late seventies/early eighties. �I don't li
ke to
think about what the gas bill might be these days. �That's the on
ly
place I ever lived where I could find frost on a closet wall on a
cold day.

When I moved to western New York State in the late 1970s I lived for a
time in a rented two-bedroom all-electric townhome of then-recent
construction. $300 electric bills in the winter were normal, even
though there were two party walls and the thermostat was kept low.

My first house, a wood-frame single just a few miles away in New York
State, was built in 1900 and had gas heat with radiators, gas hot
water and gas stove. $85/month for gas in the winter was a big bill.

The house on RadioTelegraph Hill was a stone-and-stucco twin built in
1923. It cost a little more to heat and cool than the New York State
house.

Present location was built in 1950, original heater replaced in 2000
and the whole house heavily modified/upgraded in 2005.

There's an easy test for how well insulated/sealed your house is: When
it's very cold or very hot outside, let the heat or A/C run long
enough to get the house to a reasonable temperature.

Then turn off the heat or A/C and see how long it takes for the house
to cool off or heat up a certain number of degrees. Use the thermostat
indication for uniformity.

I've had a setback-thermostat since the new heater was installed, but
since 2005 it doesn't do much because the house doesn't cool or heat
more than a couple of degrees in several hours with the thermostat on
the maximum "nobody home" setting.

We hams have lots of options, but as it was said in the first post of
this thread, we have to plan from the beginning.

73 de Jim, N2EY