From: "KH6HZ" on Mon, Jan 1 2007 8:40 am

Here's a direct, unedited, verbatim quote from
Michael P. Deignan made on Monday, January 1, 2006
showing a typical example of "courteous, logical
'debate'" from a code-tested amateur extra:

That's pretty much my mental image of Lennie. A senile old fart, rocking
in his corner rocking chair, who occasionally wipes the drool of his face,
plugs in his telephone to his 300 baud acoustic-coupler modem, and uses
his VT100 green-screen to spread hate and discontent.

Oh, my, Mikey forgot to include "wearing pampers" and
"dribbling pablum" as another morse maven from New
Jersey wrote... :-)

Tsk, "senility" hasn't yet set in, I have NO "rocking
chair" and only "drool" mentally seeing certain women
of great natural beauty. I can't remember ever using
a "VT100", only one of the early Tektronix smart
terminals and the last time I used an acoustic coupler
for a computer connection was in 1977 at Teledyne
Electronics in Newbury Park, CA. The first mainframe
CRT terminal I used was an RCA-manufactured model
(made in Van Nuys, CA) back in 1973. [the RCA
"Spectra 70" mainframe was made there although
I've never been a part of that work] I am rather
familiar with "green screens" since that CRT phosphor
has been common since I've been working in electronics
(since 1952). My wife has a rocking chair (antique)
but it is up at the northern house and was used by
our grandniece during nursing of her new baby boy.

My PC is a standard Hewlett-Packard box purchased almost
three years ago at Fry's Electronics in Burbank, CA, one
with modest clock rate (1.2 GHz) but with a 56K modem on
a plug-in. 40 GB HD, only 128 MB of RAM, with USB ports
as well as standard serial and parallel interface. The
monitor is a Samsung 712N LCD 17" flat screen that is
almost two years old (also purchased at Fry's). A recent
addition is an HP wireless keyboard and mouse (also from
Fry's, a giant supermarket of consumer electronics in
nearby Burbank). Note: The wireless mouse needs a new
set of batteries almost every month...supplied by a set
of NiMH batteries charged by an battery chargers
formerly used only for household tasks. :-(

The office in our dwelling (the southern house) has
"his and her" computer desks which I made in 1999 (six
foot long glued wooden countertops sold for kitchens,
with extra-wide keyboard shelves also made by me)
including AC power outlets and modular telephone jacks
at each "desk." Ample workspace. I've been a user of
WordPerfect since release 5.1 and now have release 8.
I have the full version of Adobe Acrobat and know how
to use all softwares in my computer. That includes
SPICE (a free download from Linear Technology) and my
own-written packages...and am beginning to write
programs directly for Windows using PowerBasic (MS
quit supporting FORTRAN years ago and their version 9
and up Windows don't support all DOS-level programs).
I've gotten a copy of (free) "JustBasic" and am trying
that out...looks easier to use.

While I don't have the stamina or agility of a twenty-
year-old now, my wife and I have not been pursuing (as
we once did) an active lifestyle. That is due to my
wife having undergone a successful hip joint
replacement procedure in August. While there were
(thankfully) no problems with that, the recovery
period is about a year according to her surgeon. The
scheduling of the surgery caused us to put off a trip
to the midwest for our 55th High School Class Reunion
(we went to the 50th in 2001, both of us being in
the same class). We did go to my wife's 50th Reunion
at Beloit College, Beloit, Wisconsin in 2005, driving
the whole way. Car is a modest 2005 Chevrolet Malibu
MAXX and I do most of the driving...still passing all
required written tests with no physical problems
preventing my holding a driving license.

MD

Tsk, you are neither licensed Medical Doctor nor live
in Maryland. :-)

So, as you see Alun, nothing has changed over the past 7 years, except the
email address he uses when he posts.

MUCH has changed! See FCC 06-178 announced on 15th
December! The USA has been attacked by kamikazi
muslim extremists (not just pro-coder olde fahrts),
Shrub sent the US off to war in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Amateur radio "restructuring" happened (R&O FCC
99-412 released 30 December 1999) and the amateur
radio licensee numbers have been slowly dropping.
Now, I admit to not taking advantage of the free
IEEE e-mail forwarding alias until a couple years
ago somewhat long after I became a Life Member.
My wife and I became "great grands" and joined
the HDTV generation, getting excellent digital TV
through Time-Warner cable service (subscriber box
has a Tivo-like recorder capable of recording two
programs at the same time for 20 hours maximum).
Two of the ardent morse mavens in this newsgroup
passed away and the ARRL staffers seem to avoid the
newsgroup now. You've missed a LOT!

Oh, and not to forget: Michael P. Deignan got his
MANY "club calls" taken away from him by the FCC!
Sunnuvagun! The "RF Commandos" were mustered out
of militant service? :-)

Mikey, I'll flip you something: The bird.

Byeeee...

John Smith I wrote:
wrote:
...
Incredible. But, John, "you knew that," didn't you? :-)



Len:

Well, kinda ...

But, I have a much deeper understanding now ... grin

OK, we'll award you a PhD...the one for "piled higher and deeper!"

wink, nudge

LA

John Smith I wrote:
wrote:
...
- Have there been *any* problems of that nature in amateur radio?
...

When you have seen that priests, school teachers, and gov't officials
have all had problems with child molesters in their ranks, logic demands
you attend to the fact they are here with us ...

IOW, no, you have no examples to report. Or rather more accurately: Not
yet.

Yes, they are here with us - and always have been. Look at the
decades of coverup in some cases.

The difference is that such things are getting open media attention
now,
where before they were a local scandal or covered up entirely.

The big question is this: Do we shut down everything that might turn
into a
problem? Close schools and extracurricular activities because of what a
teacher or coach might do?

Or do we use common sense in our dealings with each other, and impose
appropriate penalties on the violators?

wrote:
John Smith I wrote:
wrote:
...
The big question is why Len is so interested in changing the rules of
amateur radio,
when he's not involved with amateur radio in any other way.

Perhaps it just bothers him that someone is having fun?


Now I'd say that must be a trick question, as certainly, on the surface,
it appears only a moron would ask such a thing!

is no "moron." Brainwashed by the ARRL, yes, but
otherwise no dummy.

is clever. He makes his "charges" as "politely"
as possible yet are just another set of personal insults.
shrug

Len, you seem to regard any disagreement with your opinions as a
personal insult. You also seem to regard any correction of your
mistakes as a personal insult.

Show us where I have *really* insulted you as a person. For example,
have I ever
called you insulting nicknames rather than just "Len" or "Mr. Anderson"
or perhaps "Anderson"?

As for brainwashed - sorry, that's simply not true.

His kind have inhabited computer-modem comms since
ARPANET was created. I've seen his kind on computer-
modem comms in all varieties in the two decades plus
that I've done it.

I'd say Len would do little or nothing to hinder anyone from having
"fun." Now, for instance, say they were hogging up all the radio freqs
for a good 'ole boys club, he'd be a ****ed as hell--and rightly so!

That is all you are seeing. Len don't give a chit about children having
fun ...

On the contrary, I think children SHOULD have fun...when
they have free time to experience play.

Just as long as it's not in amateur radio.

I regard amateur radio as an ADULT activity

Why? FCC doesn't specify that in Part 97. Nor does any amateur
radio organization. Amateur radio is for all ages - as long as they
can meet the requirements and follow the rules.

that requires some
sense of responsibility, a responsibility that is not yet formed
in most children until the entrance to teen years.

Who are you to judge when a person is responsible enough?

And if young people haven't formed the responsibility, why
don't we see problems resulting from the lack of
an age requirement in the amateur radio service?

There has been mandatory licensing of amateur radio stations in the USA
since 1912 - 96 years! In all that time, and the hundreds of thousands
of
amateurs licensed, there has *never* been a minimum age requirement
for any class of amateur license. Some other countries like the UK and
Canada had age requirements but dropped them.

If licensee-responsibility problems were going to happen because
of the licensing of young radio amateurs, wouldn't we have seen them by
now?
Perhaps the 96 year experiment was flawed, somehow?

Here's a hint, Len: One of the ways responsibility is formed is by
being trusted
to meet a standard. An amateur radio license is one form of that.

Children have
a whole lifetime to experience yet and cannot possibly know
enough about adult society to be a deciding part of it.

How does being a radio amateur make a young person "a deciding part"
of "adult society"? Having an amateur license doesn't give young people
the right to vote, hold public office, or do anything special other
than
operate an amateur radio station.

Of course if someone is licensed at a young age, they may be influenced
to enter a technical or scientific career, as I was. Their amateur
radio
experience may count for something in the college admissions process,
too.
Why would we want to hinder those good things?

Perhaps the real explanation is that *you* can't deal with some things.
For
example, you probably don't like the idea of a young radio amateur
having
accomplished things you have not.

Or it may be something like this:

"I've always had trouble with integrating "youngsters"
in what is a primarily _adult_ skill/technique recreational
activity."
- Len Anderson


http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...e=source&hl=en

Whether my quotes of your postings are old or new is irrelevant. Your
reactions
show that you still think the same way as when you wrote them.

wrote:
...

No. That is not what I meant ...

I would really be surprised if they happened to mentioned some
particular child molester was a ham. Me thinks you too anxious to "blow
past" that one ...

If you notice, they usually don't mention what church a particular child
molester attends, what club or organizations they attend or are a member
of, what movies they like, if they were in the boy scouts, what their
mother maidens name was, what parks are near their homes, where they
shop, what make of car they drive, who their friends were, what party
republican/democrat, what their favorite color is, what HOBBIES they
had, etc., etc.

Priest, school teacher, sunday school teacher, public official ... now
that they mention, good reason too ...

But, you are right about it being "dealt with differently back then."
Personally I know of one ham from the small town of my birth who was
molesting his own daughters. I was real young at the time, all I
remember is he and his family were forced to leave town ... but then, it
was just something you did not talk about back then, I always found that
strange ... one other guy to, a truck driver, same thing, molesting his
daughter and her friends, don't know if he had a CB in his rig--they
never mentioned that either ...

Regards,
JS

From: "Alun L. Palmer" on Mon, Jan 1 2007 10:32
pm

" wrote in
Alun L. Palmer wrote:
John Smith I wrote in
wrote:

I think you misunderstand me, Len. All I'm saying is that there are quite a
few radio professionals who are also radio hams, and you ought to at least
give it a try.

I don't "misunderstand" much, Alun.

My good friend Allan Walston (W6MJN), friend and former
group manager Jim Hall (KD6JG), and military service
comrade Gene Rosenbaum (N2JTV) have all been professionals
involved in radio. All are against the elimination of the
morse code test in US amateur radio but I do not hold that
against them. They are good people.

"Give it a try?" I've already done that as a "third party"
on amateur radio bands. Good grief, Alun, I really have
communicated by radio many times in the past fifty
years...and over more of the EM spectrum than is allocated
to US radio amateurs. I know how it works. I've had to
"know" several different radio service protocols and have
no trouble adapting to any of them. Just what is it I am
supposed to "learn" in such "having fun?"

That's an honest question. I don't lack for human
companionship, friends or much else. Having once kept
many radio circuits operating 24/7, transmitting 'vital'
messages all day long, I don't regard "collecting brief,
momentary contacts" as "fun." If others like that, fine,
more power to them. Last I looked, 'operating' a radio
is not the end-all, be-all of amateur radio.

I have been opposed to code testing for the last 35 years, but it's all
over bar the shouting.

As Yogi Berra was quoted as saying "It ain't over till
its over!"

The "fat lady" hasn't sung yet and the Federal Register
won't be issued until Wednesday. FCC 06-178 has been
announced but it is ONLY an announcement and not yet
law.

As for the age limit thing, we used to have a lower limit of 14 in the UK,
but it was dropped completely and never missed.

I'm NOT into that "age thing." Almost 8 years ago my
particular Reply to Comment on FCC 98-143 had a
"suggestion" to that effect on the last of 14 pages
of text accepted by the FCC.

If anyone wants to see the public record, they only
need go to the FCC ECFS and bring up the 13 Jan 99
Comments. In that they will find out that my
suggestion was THEN prompted by a (referenced) ARRL
news page wherein two 6-year-olds were shown in a
picture as "the youngest hams."

According to the FCC regulations then and now, any
licensed radio amateur can operate on permitted
bands BY THEMSELVES. There's NO law saying that
6-year-olds "must" have parental supervision when
doing so. They (the sixes) could legally send RF
anywhere in the world, all by themselves.

Way back about 7 years ago, I stated that CHILDREN
(specifically pointing to the six-year-olds) don't
have the RESPONSIBILITY nor the requisite wisdom
to behave properly in a largely-adult endeavor.
That hit a terrible sore point with all the morsers
who had (or cared for) children since, having passed
a high-rate code test, they were now PhD-equivalent
pediatric "experts." :-(

I've tried to let the matter drop but Miccolis MUST
try to bring that subject up again, and again, and
again. I suspect that I set an arbitrary age limit
of 14 and Miccolis got his first license at age 14.
See the connection?

I let this age thing drop years ago and won't pursue
it any more than I did almost 8 years ago. I am
getting annoyed that Miccolis keeps bringing it up
with supposed "motivations" that are impure or
immoral or somehow "against him." That's why he
gets the bird flipped at him...


The only RL life case I know of involving ham radio was someone in an area
where I used to live who allegedly enticed local boys into his radio shack,
If you think about it, preventing them from having their own licences could
have made his station all the more interesting to them.

I'm not going to venture into this area. I have
NEVER done such a thing, have no desire to "entice
anyone" into my electronics workshop, office,
vehicle, or home for ANY immoral purposes. I have
a lovely wife, my high school sweetheart in fact,
and we've been together for longer than that
supposed moral perfidy that Miccolis keeps
crowing about, the one done almost 8 years ago on
the last page of 14 Comments submitted on 98-143.

Got that Alun? Got that Miccolis? Got that Heil?
Good, now DROP that 8-year-old "subject" and quit
all trying to pin some kind of moral-ethical "rep" on
me. I'm starting to get a bit ****ed off here.
Anyone who wants to pin some kind of "immorality"
rap on me can save up for legal fees (the billing
ain't cheap). I can afford legal billings. I can't
afford that kind of ROI "fun" to get a ham license.
It ain't worth THAT.

Alun, if you feel you've been "misunderstood," then
I would suggest you check your own syntax on what
you say in here. There be all sorts of trolls eager
to pop up from under their bridges, ready to talk
trash and nonsensical "charges" of perfidy here.
They will take the slightest thing out of context
and manufacture (indeed custom-make) something
entirely different than what was originally written.

On 1 Jan 2007 18:03:36 -0800, wrote:

wrote:
John Smith I wrote:
wrote:


Who are you to judge when a person is responsible enough?

....says the guy who is doing the same thing, by arguing the
counterpoint!

Jeez, this group is like watching Coronation Street on TV.....you
could miss 15 consecutive years of the show, and pick right up where
you left off.....

Leo

wrote:

First, I disagree that 14 year olds generally "lack the knowledgebase"
- particularly current-day 14 year olds. Having seen the curriculum for
the local school district, the amateur radio exams aren't a problem.

Algebra and geometry isn't taught until 9th grade. Trig not until 10th or
11th. Vectors possibly in 11th or 12th.

You must have a lot of 14 year olds graduating from high school.


Second, the mere fact of attaining a particular age does not mean the
person can learn algebra, geometry, etc., or has learned it.

True. It could mean that the child simply memorized or word-associated the
correct answers.

So what's the problem?

Ultimately, I have no real problem with hams under 14. I think it is a good
idea. However, I do think there are valid points from the other side of the
equation. However, I do not see the FCC addressing them in any way, so,
things in their current form are likely to remain the way they are, which is
fine IMO.

KH6HZ wrote:
It could mean that the child simply memorized or word-associated the
correct answers.

That's what I did in the early 50's in order to pass
the Conditional exam. My lack of understanding drove
me into Electrical Engineering in college, not a bad
incentive.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

From: Leo on Tues, Jan 2 2007 3:06 pm

On 1 Jan 2007 18:03:36 -0800, wrote:

wrote:
John Smith I wrote:
wrote:

Who are you to judge when a person is responsible enough?

...says the guy who is doing the same thing, by arguing the
counterpoint!

Ain't it something, though! :-)

Happy Holiday time to you, Leo, long time no "see."

I would consider that the pro-coders in this newsgroup
consider themselves ultra-qualified for judgement. They
took the code-test here at maximum rate and are thus
supremely "qualified" to judge anything or anybody!
Those who haven't been federally tested for morse code
cognition skill are "untouchables," "always making
mistakes" and/or "always wrong." :-)

It's like Inja doncha know?

Jeez, this group is like watching Coronation Street on TV.....you
could miss 15 consecutive years of the show, and pick right up where
you left off.....

Well, "Coronation Street" isn't a big thing down here.
Don't know if PBS carries it locally. Try "Midsomer
Murders" perhaps...the inspectors busy trying to catch
the evil-doers that killed off code-testing in US
amateur radio. :-)

Cordially yours,
Poirot and his leetle gray cells