On Jan 27, 8:11�pm, Mike Coslo wrote:
wrote roups.com:

* * * * a most interesting history lesson snipped for brevity

Generals. This was in the era when FCC not only had many scheduled
exams, but would also send out traveling examiners upon request if a
minimum number of examinees could be guaranteed. Ham exam sessions
were being conducted by FCC at hamfests, conventions, and club
meetings, and the perceived need for the Conditional disappeared.

---

Your recollections are correct, Cecil, with minor corrections to the
Conditional distance. Which changed right around the time you got the
license, as did the retest rules.* * * *

Although I can see a few quirks here and there, I would have to say
* * that overall the testing, requirements, and methods have improved
* * over the years, rather than regressed.

On what do you base that conclusion, Mike?

I see the accessibility of the tests as improved. But that's about it.

I had to chuckle at some of
* * the early stuff, which was awkward, and most arbitrary.

Like what?

Some of
* * those tests amounted to "open book" tests, which are surely easier
* * than Open pool tests.

How?

The old tests were definitely not open book in any sense of the word.
You weren't even allowed to bring your own pencils in some cases.

How about a question like this:

"A manufacturer guarantees his crystals to be within .01% of the
marked frequency, when used in the recommended circuit at 20 degrees
C. The crystals have a negative temperature coefficient of 50 parts
per million per degree C.

What is the lowest whole-kilocycle frequency that should be ordered
for a 40 meter crystal, if the crystal is to be used in the
recommended circuit over the temperature range of 5 to 35 degrees C?
Allow 1 additional kilocycle to allow for crystal and component
aging.

Show all work."

No open book, no cheat sheets, no formulas given - and that's just one
question on the General exam.

* * * * Certainly if there were only a few exams existing for the different
* * levels, it would be very important to be hush-hush about the
* * contents of those exams. It certainly would argue against those few
* * tests being so much superior.

How would the existence of a few tests argue against that?

73 de Jim, N2EY

Mike Coslo wrote:
wrote in
oups.com:

On Jan 25, 9:26 am, Cecil Moore wrote:
wrote:

Your recollections are correct, Cecil, with minor corrections to
the Conditional distance. Which changed right around the time you
got the license, as did the retest rules.

Thanks Jim, for the history lesson.

You're welcome, Cecil. Thanks for reading.

The old Conditional was preceded by the Class C, which was essentially
the same license with a different name. Early 1930s until the 1951
restructuring.

Some folks think that the 1964-65 rules Conditional changes really cut
into the growth of US ham radio. After those changes, a ham who wanted
a renewable license with HF privileges pretty much had to go to an FCC
exam point unless s/he lived *way* out in the boonies. Just getting to
the exam could be a major journey, depending on where you lived.

I understand what you say here Jim, but I don't agree. If a person
can go to the trouble of learning Morse code, they should be able to
go to the trouble of traveling to the FCC exam points.

It's a completely different situation. Learning Morse Code is directly
related
to getting the license and what is done with it. Traveling to a
distant city back
in the days before the Interstate Highway System isn't.

I can't
imagine that a peron who went to the trouble of learning the
material would feel otherwise.

I can. And it's not about how anyone felt - it's about the reality of
the
requirements.

It all depends on the situation, Mike. Consider the case posed by
K8MN,
which was very common in the 1950s and 1960s. How was a young 1950s
ham supposed to get to a license test session 120 miles away, and be
there before
8 AM on a weekday morning?

Remember too that the distance rule was "air line", meaning straight-
line
distance on the map, not actual distance on the road. In many places,
125 miles air-line could be twice that on the road. More than three
hours
at the common speed limit of 40 mph - if everything went according to
plan.

For me, the biggest difficulty in getting to the FCC office was the
fact that
tests in the Philly office were only given on Mondays, Tuesdays and
Wednesdays - which were all school days. Young hams like me had to
wait for summer, or a school holiday that was not a Federal holiday.
(There was no way a school kid would skip school for a day to take
a ham radio exam!) With the 30 day wait to retest, there was a real
incentive to pass on the first try.

I was lucky - all I needed was decent shoes and a couple of subway
tokens. Three quarters of a mile to the 69th Street Terminal, the
Market-Frankford Subway-Elevated to 2nd Street, and a block south to
the US Custom House.

I travelled about 120 mikes fro my Tech, about 300 for my General
written CSCE, a mere 20 for my Element 1, and aroud 70 for my Extra.

Round trip or one way? Weekday or weekend? Did you have to be there at
8 AM or be turned away?

Most of all, note the wide variation in distances. I'll bet you went
to different
VE sessions at various hamfests, some close to home, some not. You
went
when it was convenient for *you*.

My point is that in the Conditional days there was no choice. You went
to
the FCC office, on their schedule, unless you lived beyond the
Conditional
distance.

And note this most of all: FCC didn't change the distance in 1954
because
of concern for hams having to travel long distances to get to an exam
session.
FCC changed the distance to reduce their workload giving the exams!


73 de Jim, N2EY

Mike Coslo wrote:
I understand what you say here Jim, but I don't agree. If a person
can go to the trouble of learning Morse code, they should be able to
go to the trouble of traveling to the FCC exam points.

You're assuming the person has a vehicle and a driver's
license. I already knew Morse code from Boy Scouts
but I had a heck of a time talking my parents into
taking off from work and driving their '37 Chevrolet
rattletrap six hours round trip to Houston just so I
could take the Novice exam when I was 14 years old.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

On Jan 27, 9:15�pm, Mike Coslo wrote:
Dave Heil wrote rthlink.net:

Mike Coslo wrote:
wrote in
groups.com:

On Jan 25, 9:26 am, Cecil Moore wrote:
wrote:
Your recollections are correct, Cecil, with minor corrections to
the Conditional distance. Which changed right around the time you
got the license, as did the retest rules.
Thanks Jim, for the history lesson.
You're welcome, Cecil. Thanks for reading.

The old Conditional was preceded by the Class C, which was
essentially the same license with a different name. Early 1930s
until the 1951 restructuring.

Some folks think that the 1964-65 rules Conditional changes really
cut into the growth of US ham radio. After those changes, a ham who
wanted a renewable license with HF privileges pretty much had to go
to an FCC exam point unless s/he lived *way* out in the boonies.
Just getting to the exam could be a major journey, depending on
where you lived.

* * * * *I understand what you say here Jim, but I don't agree. If a
* * * * *person
* * can go to the trouble of learning Morse code, they should be able
* * to go to the trouble of traveling to the FCC exam points. I can't
* * imagine that a peron who went to the trouble of learning the
* * material would feel otherwise.

Just for grins, Mike, make the applicant 12-14 years of age. *Put him
in a family with one automobile where the father works during the day
and the mother doesn't drive.

I was lucky - all I needed was decent shoes and a couple of subway
tokens. Three quarters of a mile to the 69th Street Terminal, the
Market-Frankford Subway-Elevated to 2nd Street, and a block south to
the US Custom House.

* * * * *I travelled about 120 mikes fro my Tech, about 300 for my
* * * * *General
* * written CSCE, a mere 20 for my Element 1, and aroud 70 for my
* * Extra.

The nearest examination point when I was a kid would have been better
than 50 miles each way, in a time before there was an Interstate
Highway anywhere nearby. *The journey each direction would have taken
at least an hour-and-a-half over two lane mountain roads. *The
examination point was one of those which the FCC visited quarterly.

Dave K8MN* * * * It is interesting how times change, Dave. Just as an aside, those
are the types of roads I see out these days. Things have changed, I
suspect that autos are more comfortable and better handling today.

Also more reliable.

When I was a kid, a trip to the New Jersey beaches was a major
journey. Most
of the roads were 2 lanes, and you slowed down through every town on
the way.
Three hours from the bridge over the Delaware to the bridge over the
bay was very good time. Today the trip takes half that time, due to
better roads and better cars.

Certainly if a person couldn't drive yet, there would be another hurdle
getting the parents to join in on the fun. All the more challenge.

Apply that logic to the Morse Code test - all the more challenge,
right?

And recall that FCC changed the distance to reduce *their* workload,
not to make the
exams more accessible to hams.

---

btw, the old License Manuals are probably still under copyright.
Quoting some of the questions is one thing, and comes under "fair
use". Scanning the entire book and putting
on the web is a different thing. Couldn't hurt to ask ARRL - I don't
think they have any plans to reissue those old LMs. They might even
like the idea, if it were posed as a historic
interest thing.

The study guide *questions* and the old regulations were Govt. issued,
and so could be used, I think.

73 de Jim, N2EY

On Jan 26, 6:44 pm, wrote:
On Jan 25, 7:52?pm, Cecil Moore wrote:

wrote:
Just getting to
the exam could be a major journey, depending on where you lived.
Come to think of it - my parents drove me to the Houston
FCC office for my Novice exam so at that time the distance
limit was still 125 miles. A year later, when my Novice
expired, I was eligible to take the Conditional by mail
because the distance limit had been reduced to 75 miles.
I have lost track of exactly when I got those licenses
but that knowledge should help to bracket the dates.Here's an exact date, Cecil:

June 10, 1954

On that date, the "Conditional distance" was reduced from 125 miles to
75 miles "air-line" from a quarterly examining point.

Also on that date, FCC stopped giving routine Novice and Technician
exams at FCC exam sessions, and instead gave the job to volunteer
examiners. After that date, Novice and Technician exams wouyld be done
by mail regardless of distance from and FCC exam point.

That resolves an ongoing bit of confusion on my part. I haven't been
able to remember if I took my Novice exam in 1953 or 1954. What I do
remember is that I took the exam during a Thanksgiving break at the
FCC office in the Philly custom house and that there was no other way
for me to take the test. Based on your June 10 '54 date I must have
taken the test in the fall of '53 when I was a high school
sophomore.


In those days there were three FCC offices in Texas - Houston, Dallas
and Beaumont. Houston and Dallas gave exams on a weekly schedule, while
Beaumont was a sub-office that.gave exams by appointment. Exams were
also given four times a year in San Antonio.

Of course, in Texas, it's not at all difficult to be more than 75 miles
from all four of those offices.

The reason cited for the changes was that the FCC exam sessions were
overloaded with amateurs taking the exams, and the FCC had almost
overrun its 1953 budget for giving exams. In those days there were no
license fees to defray the cost.

That's very strange. There were very few ham tests given on the days
when I took my Novice exam and again when I took my General exam a
year later, the exam room was overloaded with guys taking commercial
exams on both occasions. I was the *only * ham in the room when I took
my General vs. a couple dozen others. The examiner opened the office
with a question "is there anybody taking a ham radio license test
today?" and I raised my hand. "OK, let's get you outta here." Being
the only ham in a room full of grumbling commercial guys was a bit
unnerving . . sorta like "OK kid just do it and hit the road."

I've taken three ham tests and one commercial license test in '53, '54
nd '68. All the exams were given by FCC examiners at the Philly office
and none of them cost me a dime.

I swapped my original callsign for my current callsign at the FCC
office in Gettysburg in '77. It's not a "vanity" callsign and it was
also a freebie. I have yet to be be involved with a volunteer examiner
or pay the FCC for anything. Cheap, cheap . . !

This overload happened even though the FCC had stopped giving the
Advanced exam 18 months earlier (end of 1952) and there were few
applicants for the Extra because that license did not convey any
additional operating privileges. Also, the "retest if you move closer"
rule had been dropped in 1952, yet the FCC exam sessions were brusting
at the seems..

Thanks again, Jim.You're welcome, Cecil. Hope that helps pin down the date.

---

btw, in those days the FCC did not give credit for license exam
elements previously passed unless they were passed in front of an FCC
examiner. If a Novice who had gotten the license by mail went for the
Technician, s/he had to do the 5 wpm code again. If a by-mail
Technician went for the General or Conditional, s/he had to do the
written exam again even though, back then, all three of those license
classes used the same written test.

73 de Jim, N2EY

w3rv

wrote in
ups.com:

On Jan 27, 8:11�pm, Mike Coslo wrote:
wrote
roup
s.com:

* * * * a most interesting history lesson snipped for brevity

Generals. This was in the era when FCC not only had many scheduled
exams, but would also send out traveling examiners upon request if
a minimum number of examinees could be guaranteed. Ham exam
sessions were being conducted by FCC at hamfests, conventions, and
club meetings, and the perceived need for the Conditional
disappeared.

---

Your recollections are correct, Cecil, with minor corrections to
the Conditional distance. Which changed right around the time you
got the license, as did the retest rules.* * * *

Although I can see a few quirks here and there, I would have to
say
* * that overall the testing, requirements, and methods have improved
* * over the years, rather than regressed.

On what do you base that conclusion, Mike?

I see the accessibility of the tests as improved. But that's about it.

I had to chuckle at some of
* * the early stuff, which was awkward, and most arbitrary.

Like what?

I'll answer this and the last question at one time. 75 miles, 150
miles. mail in tests, move closer than the "limit" lose your license if
you don't retest. Don't move, keep it. That's just a little bit. It all
seems arbitrary, and almost capricious to me. YMMV.

Some of
* * those tests amounted to "open book" tests, which are surely
easier * * than Open pool tests.

How?

The old tests were definitely not open book in any sense of the word.
You weren't even allowed to bring your own pencils in some cases.

Mailing the test in? At least ther was no chance whatsoever of
looking up the answer in the book, eh?

How about a question like this:

"A manufacturer guarantees his crystals to be within .01% of the
marked frequency, when used in the recommended circuit at 20 degrees
C. The crystals have a negative temperature coefficient of 50 parts
per million per degree C.

What is the lowest whole-kilocycle frequency that should be ordered
for a 40 meter crystal, if the crystal is to be used in the
recommended circuit over the temperature range of 5 to 35 degrees C?
Allow 1 additional kilocycle to allow for crystal and component
aging.

Show all work."

That was an important thing at that time. And to be honest, I would
have to look a few things up to give a reasonable accurate answer. But
the math is not that difficult, unless I am way off. I could give an
answer I had around 50 percent confidence in now, but if I was wrong, it
would be like the guff that Dave has to take with his "out of band
frenchmen". Mike the dumb nickle Extra that couldn't answer a question
from an old test! ;^)

But unless the question isn't from any book, or just somehow shows
up on a test with no references anywhere to be found, I'd do a bit of
research and the answer would be forthcoming. Hard? Not in the least.


No open book, no cheat sheets, no formulas given - and that's just one
question on the General exam.

Maybe the steely eyed FCC examiner watches you take the test you
mail in so that you don't have to take the test in front of the steely
eyed FCC examiner?


* * * * Certainly if there were only a few exams existing for the
different
* * levels, it would be very important to be hush-hush about the
* * contents of those exams. It certainly would argue against those
few tests being so much superior.

How would the existence of a few tests argue against that?

Jim, am I being obtuse or what? Seems to me that if there are only a
couple tests, that cheating would be much easier, that retesting would
likely expose the applicant to the same test again, and that your
"buddy" could give you some valuable hints. I saw the same question from
your 1960's essay type question, and my 1950's guide. Unless we are
arguing extremely small points here, any differences between the tests
of the good old days and now just aren't big enough to be that concerned
about.

In fact, as this discussion goes on in here and outside of this
group, I am more and more convinced that an equally acceptable
explanation is a sense of nostalgia, a yearning for good old days that
perhaps never really existed, and the fact that middle aged men are
capable of becoming upset about just about anything. I sometimes feel
the tug myself, until I remember just how the good old days were.

I could be wrong though.....

- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -

wrote in
ups.com:

Mike Coslo wrote:
wrote in
oups.com:

On Jan 25, 9:26 am, Cecil Moore wrote:
wrote:

Your recollections are correct, Cecil, with minor corrections to
the Conditional distance. Which changed right around the time
you got the license, as did the retest rules.

Thanks Jim, for the history lesson.

You're welcome, Cecil. Thanks for reading.

The old Conditional was preceded by the Class C, which was
essentially the same license with a different name. Early 1930s
until the 1951 restructuring.

Some folks think that the 1964-65 rules Conditional changes really
cut into the growth of US ham radio. After those changes, a ham who
wanted a renewable license with HF privileges pretty much had to go
to an FCC exam point unless s/he lived *way* out in the boonies.
Just getting to the exam could be a major journey, depending on
where you lived.

I understand what you say here Jim, but I don't agree. If a
person
can go to the trouble of learning Morse code, they should be able
to go to the trouble of traveling to the FCC exam points.

It's a completely different situation. Learning Morse Code is directly
related to getting the license and what is done with it. Traveling to
a distant city back in the days before the Interstate Highway System
isn't.

I was a kid from a rather poor family. And yet I could get my parents to
help out with things-once I convinced then that I was serious.
Regardless, effort is the important thing, and I don't see it as
different.


I can't
imagine that a peron who went to the trouble of learning the
material would feel otherwise.

I can. And it's not about how anyone felt - it's about the reality of
the requirements.


It all depends on the situation, Mike. Consider the case posed by
K8MN, which was very common in the 1950s and 1960s. How was a young
1950s ham supposed to get to a license test session 120 miles away,
and be there before 8 AM on a weekday morning?

Perhaps it was a filter like learning CW? (oops, my bad)

Remember too that the distance rule was "air line", meaning straight-
line
distance on the map, not actual distance on the road. In many places,
125 miles air-line could be twice that on the road. More than three
hours
at the common speed limit of 40 mph - if everything went according to
plan.

Living in central PA, I'm painfully aware of that. My parents house is
around 5 miles away by air, but no closer than 11 iles by car.


For me, the biggest difficulty in getting to the FCC office was the
fact that
tests in the Philly office were only given on Mondays, Tuesdays and
Wednesdays - which were all school days. Young hams like me had to
wait for summer, or a school holiday that was not a Federal holiday.
(There was no way a school kid would skip school for a day to take
a ham radio exam!) With the 30 day wait to retest, there was a real
incentive to pass on the first try.

I'll bet it was an incredibly exciting event for you, no? No
sarcasm here, I'm serious.

I was lucky - all I needed was decent shoes and a couple of subway
tokens. Three quarters of a mile to the 69th Street Terminal, the
Market-Frankford Subway-Elevated to 2nd Street, and a block south
to the US Custom House.

I travelled about 120 mikes fro my Tech, about 300 for my
General
written CSCE, a mere 20 for my Element 1, and aroud 70 for my
Extra.

Round trip or one way? Weekday or weekend? Did you have to be there at
8 AM or be turned away?

I was going to become a ham, but I couldn't get there before 9 am.....
;^)

Most of all, note the wide variation in distances. I'll bet you went
to different VE sessions at various hamfests, some close to home, some
not. You went when it was convenient for *you*.

Only the General CSCE was at a Hamfest. The rest I looked up and went
to.

My point is that in the Conditional days there was no choice. You went
to the FCC office, on their schedule, unless you lived beyond the
Conditional distance.


And note this most of all: FCC didn't change the distance in 1954
because of concern for hams having to travel long distances to get to
an exam session. FCC changed the distance to reduce their workload
giving the exams!

I had to look up to see what we were discussiong here, Jim. My
point is that I seriously doubt that eliminating the mail ins
harmed Amateur radio. Numbers continued to grow (I believe) and by
the 60's, American society was becoming much more mobile.

- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -

Cecil Moore wrote in news:WiUuh.56418$wc5.30426
@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net:

Mike Coslo wrote:
I understand what you say here Jim, but I don't agree. If a person
can go to the trouble of learning Morse code, they should be able to
go to the trouble of traveling to the FCC exam points.

You're assuming the person has a vehicle and a driver's
license. I already knew Morse code from Boy Scouts
but I had a heck of a time talking my parents into
taking off from work and driving their '37 Chevrolet
rattletrap six hours round trip to Houston just so I
could take the Novice exam when I was 14 years old.

But they did, didn't they?

I had a rough time talking my parents into getting me my first
radios. I had to convince them I was serious. Perhaps the same situation
existed for you?

- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote:
Dave Heil wrote in news:SKyuh.17581$w91.2494
@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:

If anyone has questions about how the license manual questions and
material have evolved through the years, I have the 1938, 1940, 1947,
1955, 1963, 1973, 1974 and 1975 ARRL License manuals and would be happy
to field questions.


Are those things still under copyright Dave? Scanning them and
putting them on the web would be a tremendous asset, as well as
interesting. I could provide the space.

I'm pretty sure that they are still covered under copyright. The
scanning could take a long, long time.

Dave K8MN

Dave Heil wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:
Dave Heil wrote in news:SKyuh.17581$w91.2494
@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:

If anyone has questions about how the license manual questions and
material have evolved through the years, I have the 1938, 1940, 1947,
1955, 1963, 1973, 1974 and 1975 ARRL License manuals and would be
happy to field questions.


Are those things still under copyright Dave? Scanning them and
putting them on the web would be a tremendous asset, as well as
interesting. I could provide the space.

I'm pretty sure that they are still covered under copyright. The
scanning could take a long, long time.

Dave K8MN

Federal tests are copyrighted?

What is wrong with that picture? If they are using my tax dollars, they
are mine and everyone elses!

JS