In article ,
(William) writes:

Mike Coslo wrote in message
...
Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote:

Subject: ARS License Numbers
From: Mike Coslo
Date: 8/19/2004 6:37 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote:

Subject: ARS License Numbers
From: (William)
Date: 8/18/2004 7:36 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...


Jim's had his "backbone" for quite a while.

You say that just so long as he stays out of your way and
"never is heard a discouraging word." Yet he's been giving you subtle
hints to back off of Len, but you just don't get it (because you're
nuts and cannot NOT respond to Len). We'll see if he can stand
up to someone other than Bruce, and you'll change your tune when he
tells you to quit making an jerk of yourself. Best of Luck.


Well, Brain...

There ya go spouting off without facts again.

Suggest you balance the number of LennieRants against the total
number

of

posts I've made, either to him or about him.

The numbers will, of course, prove you wrong.

There ya go...Running off at the mouth again, Brain.

Are you EVER going to learn...?!?!

Hey Steve.

Here is a good question.

Jim has suggested that you not engage with Lenover21 or Brian. I have
in the past also. There have been other things we have disagreed with.

And yet, between whatever Jim and you or myself have disagreed with, we


have always managed to keep it civil, am I not correct?

Hmmmmm, what would be the difference?


Well, Mike...It's probably because we disagree with each other
without
calling each other Nazi's, jackbooted thugs, elitists, invent
diminuitives for
each other, and generally treat each other with a modicum of respct when
we
take each other on some point.

But that's just a guess on my part!

And a good guess it is. Kind of flies in the face of those that say one

cannot engage in disagreement with you.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Of course, Steve went on his rampages while I was still being polite to him.

My mistake.

Many readers have made "that mistake."

LHA / WMD

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

William wrote:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message

...

Subject: ARS License Numbers
From: (William)
Date: 8/17/2004 8:38 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(N2EY) wrote in message
oogle.com...


(WA8ULX) wrote in message

...


Total growth of 901 in that much time isn't healthy. Reducing the
code

test


to
just 5 wpm did not result in sustained growth, and neither did
reducing

the


written tests.

Of course not, all it did was give Lazy Ass people like Karl a FREE

UPGRADE


Karl who?

When and how did you get *your* Extra, Bruce? Was it in front of an
FCC examiner? 20 wpm code, send and receive? Did you take the old
written tests, too?

Or did you bypass all that and get it after April 15, 2000 - just like
the folks you call "lazy"?

N2EY

Well, well, well! I think Jimmy Who found his backbone.

Maybe he'll stand up to Steve's abuses next, if he doesn't fear legal
action or "Dialing..."

All I can say is, "Bravo!"

Jim's had his "backbone" for quite a while.


You say that just so long as he stays out of your way and
"never is heard a discouraging word." Yet he's been giving you subtle
hints to back off of Len, but you just don't get it (because you're
nuts and cannot NOT respond to Len). We'll see if he can stand
up to someone other than Bruce, and you'll change your tune when he
tells you to quit making an jerk of yourself. Best of Luck.

You are confusing good manners with weakness.


No. YOU are confusing the PCTA extra double standard with
socially-acceptible, logical behavior.


You are also confusing good manners with backbone.


No again. Given the enormous outpouring of vituperation from that
modern ham role model (aka "nursie"), there can be no other
recourse than telling the truth. HOW that recourse is done is
apparently a sore point with you.

Nope. You two and Steve are all getting exactly what ya'all want out of

this newsgroup. Enjoy!

I'm getting NOTHING except some typing exercise and practice in
phrasing.

Mike, I got started in REAL RADIO 51 years ago and worked in
radio-electronics for an entire career. Are you claiming that "I
don't know the truth" about ALL of radio? [have you changed your
surname to Jessup?]

YOU condone nursie and whatever he says...because he is another
PCTA extra (and that "club" must stick together...why, I don't know.

Jimmie Who writes so bloody much in here that he can't come to
a good point. YOU are confusing enormous content with "good
manners." shrug

Now WHY are you wading in here in yet-another-nursie-does-the
Yell-Yell versus Everyone Else?

Back to your penalty box...

Trrying to tell me to shut up?

Extra penalty time in the box for trying to sass the audience.

LHA / WMD

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:

These are the number of unexpired FCC ARS
licenses held by individuals on the dates listed:

snip

Total Tech/TechPlus - 320,925 (decrease of 13,329)

Total all classes - 675,693 (increase of 901)

Good to see that the total numbers increased *despite* the "Great Falloff"


We have only 901 more hams today than we had when the whole restructuring
business came into being more than 4 years ago. (Some "professionals" can't
seem to even get a Technician license out of the box, despite the reduction
in written testing as well as code).

Total growth of 901 in that much time isn't healthy. Reducing the code test
to
just 5 wpm did not result in sustained growth, and neither did reducing the
written tests.

I just gotta say it.....well DUH!

?

Things are not made popular by making them easy. Things are not made
popular by giving them away. A reasonably intelligent person can learn
the tests, the old "hard tests" tests or new "easy tests".

Hey, let's all learn 1976 ham radio! Real easy then, ey?

Whenever ham radio becomes a profession, a guild, a union, or a craft,
you can make all the tests be as HARD as you want.

It doesn't matter. If a person has to spend a few more weeks learning
something, so be it.

Why?

Ham radio is a hobby, not a profession, guild, union, or craft...

It won't chase them away.

Maybe true, but it won't encourage anyone, either.

It doesn't matter if there is a Morse code test or not. Not one little
bit.

YES. It WILL matter.

Too many people seem to have thought that elimination of the Morse code

test would bring an influx of new eager hams. It will not.

You are a god. You have spoken!

You are also wrong.

If you think that elimination of the Morse test will help, You are
wrong. If you think that retention of the Morse test will help, you are
wrong.

You are a god. You have spoken!

You are also wrong.

Karl, for all his bluster, has no more clue about what will attract new

people to the field than most PCTA's. He and the other CW haters simply
hate CW, and rationalize their hatred into "Ham radio will die unless we
get rid of the test.

Who is this "Karl," Kostco?

Anything that needs rationalized is probably wrong to begin with. And
they are wrong to begin with.

The reason for retention of the morse code test has been rationalized
to its death...over and over again. In repeated trite cliches.

You probably agree so far. You won't soon.

The difficulty or lack of "difficult tests" or the Morse code test
likewise has *no* effect whatsoever on the quality of the Ham community.

Ahh, what *does* grow Ham radio?

Hams grow Ham radio.

And an awful lot aren't doing it.

Well, get out there and kill for peace! :-)

Bitching, whining, and moaning about the good old days and how much
better hams were then is only going to chase new people away. If I were
the sensitive sort, I would have quit Ham radio ten times over. I've had
to listen to Olde Tymers complaining about how only jerks and CB'ers are
joining the ranks, and how anyone can become an Extra nowadays. I've
listened to them claiming that all new Hams are stupid, and other
insults thrown at the new guys. At one time, I would gently remind them
that "I resemble that remark", but that gets old after the umpteenth time.

Poor baby.

Answer me this, is that an inviting atmosphere? How many people enter
hobbies to be ridiculed?

Around here, that's about all there are...a bunch of olde fahrt hamateurs
making like they are all gods of radio! :-)

Hams *must* provide a welcoming atmosphere, not inject their own
personal preferences into the mix, and take these new people and show
them they are valued on the air. Then word of mouth will spread among
the technologically inclined, and we won't have to be discussing how to
grow Ham radio.

Tsk. You are asking Gods of Radio (PCTA extras) to behave like
ordinary folks! Impossible...

The Morse code test could disappear tomorrow, and as long as Hams
encouraged a welcoming atmosphere that encouraged quality, we would get
quality. The test could be retained, and as long as newcomers could have
a reasonable expectation that they would have a good experience, then
the hobby would grow.

Irrelevant. Common sense, however right, is not operative in here.

We must heal ourselves!

Tsk. Most of the denizens of this din of inequity have such thin skin
that they are still suffering the newsgroup wounds of years ago!

"No kids, lids, or space cadets!" :-)

LHA / WMD

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

snippage


Nope. You two and Steve are all getting exactly what ya'all want out of
this newsgroup. Enjoy!


I'm getting NOTHING except some typing exercise and practice in
phrasing.

If that's what you want, go for it!


Mike, I got started in REAL RADIO 51 years ago and worked in
radio-electronics for an entire career. Are you claiming that "I
don't know the truth" about ALL of radio? [have you changed your
surname to Jessup?]

Now did you mean that *I* was claiming that I didn't know the truth
about ALL of Radio, or that I was claiming that *you* didn't know the
truth about ALL of radio? A little confusion there.

And no, I'm still Mike Coslo - mild mannered, cute as a button, and
makin' friends wherever I go... 8^)


YOU condone nursie and whatever he says...because he is another
PCTA extra (and that "club" must stick together...why, I don't know.

Jimmie Who writes so bloody much in here that he can't come to
a good point. YOU are confusing enormous content with "good
manners." shrug

Now WHY are you wading in here in yet-another-nursie-does-the
Yell-Yell versus Everyone Else?

Back to your penalty box...

Trrying to tell me to shut up?

Extra penalty time in the box for trying to sass the audience.

Sassing the ref can get you extra penalty time. Altercations with the
Audience can get you a game misconduct! 8^)

Len Over 21 wrote:

some stuff I snipped


Can't make a reply without the personal attack, I see. Okay

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , PAMNO
(N2EY) writes:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:
These are the number of unexpired FCC ARS
licenses held by individuals on the dates listed:


Some people have difficulty accepting the obvious.

Things are not made popular by making them easy. Things are not made
popular by giving them away.

Some things are. Ham radio licenses aren't one of those things.

A reasonably intelligent person can learn
the tests, the old "hard tests" tests or new "easy tests".

All license classes have been earned by kids not yet in middle school. Of
course they were bright kids in supportive ham families but they still had
to
pass the tests on their own. Claims of "fraud" by a nonamateur
nonwithstanding.

It doesn't matter. If a person has to spend a few more weeks learning
something, so be it.

It won't chase them away.

It doesn't matter if there is a Morse code test or not. Not one little
bit.

Too many people seem to have thought that elimination of the Morse
code test would bring an influx of new eager hams. It will not.

Not a sustained one, anyway.

If you think that elimination of the Morse test will help, You are
wrong. If you think that retention of the Morse test will help, you are
wrong.

Karl, for all his bluster, has no more clue about what will attract new
people to the field than most PCTA's. He and the other CW haters simply
hate CW, and rationalize their hatred into "Ham radio will die unless we
get rid of the test.

"Karl"? WHo is he?

Mea culpa there! I meant Carl. I had just read one of Bruce's posts
before I wrote the post.

Carl could be quite abrasive, too. He has cleaned up his act quite a bit.
Wish I could say the same for Bruce...

Too bad we can't say the same for "Quitefine."

Why are you hiding under a pseudonym?

Some time back I posted the experiences of a middle-school teacher and
Scout
leader here in EPA. He described first-hand how young people react to
Morse
Code and ham radio. Unlike what we've been told by some, he says young
people
are not driven away by Morse code or the tests. His experiences are not
unusual.

I don't doubt it, kids are incredible learning machines.

Adults too.

It seems to me that the people who have the most trouble with code tests
are much older....

Oh yeah!

Anything that needs rationalized is probably wrong to begin with. And
they are wrong to begin with.

You probably agree so far. You won't soon.

The difficulty or lack of "difficult tests" or the Morse code test
likewise has *no* effect whatsoever on the quality of the Ham community.

It's not about difficulty. It's about knowledge.

Ahh, what *does* grow Ham radio?

Hams grow Ham radio.

And an awful lot aren't doing it.

Bitching, whining, and moaning about the good old days and how much
better hams were then is only going to chase new people away. If I were
the sensitive sort, I would have quit Ham radio ten times over. I've had
to listen to Olde Tymers complaining about how only jerks and CB'ers are
joining the ranks, and how anyone can become an Extra nowadays. I've
listened to them claiming that all new Hams are stupid, and other
insults thrown at the new guys. At one time, I would gently remind them
that "I resemble that remark", but that gets old after the umpteenth time.

I agree! But this is not a new phenomenon.

I agree. I've often noted how incredibly angry middle aged and older
men can get about almost anything.

Not just men.

How is "Quitefine" taking it? :-)


Answer me this, is that an inviting atmosphere? How many people enter
hobbies to be ridiculed?

BINGO

Hams *must* provide a welcoming atmosphere, not inject their own
personal preferences into the mix, and take these new people and show
them they are valued on the air. Then word of mouth will spread among
the technologically inclined, and we won't have to be discussing how to
grow Ham radio.

But that door swings both ways. How many insults from newbies must an OT
endure before giving the same back?

Five?...... ;^)

You know I advocate good manners always. In most cases, the newcomer can
be reigned in. Of course there are always exceptions:

Yep. Newcomers like "lenover21"....

Riiiiight..."newcomers" who were WORKING HF 51 years ago.

Where was Jimmie 51 years ago? And what has he done in
radio since? Been just an amateur?

I recall a discussion some time back where a newcomer wanted to know of a
simple, all-band, compact high performance HF antenna. Knowedgeable folk
tried
to explain that you can't have all of those things at once. Newcomer said
that
the OTs were simply not imaginative enough. OTs said it's basic physics.
Newsomer said OTs were lazy and stupid, and if they *really* knew anyhting
about radio they'd have solved the problem long ago. Just kept going
downhill
from there.

How much of that should an OT take?

That newcomer was a horses ass for sure. But you run into those once in
a while. Odd that a person that knew that if experienced users knew
anything, they would know how ot bend the laws of physics! If he knew,
he would already know how to make that WonderAntenna!. But I don't think
that diminishes my point. Smart Young Pup syndrome exists everywhere,
and Ham radio is no exception. Old timers should know better, and we
should "suffer the newbies" for Ham radio's sake.

Of course. Sometimes the best method is to simply ignore the behavior.
Point is, however, that those who get such responses for their attempts to
help are much less likely to help out next time.

Oh? The "spirit of helping" evaporates after someone else
harasses them? Tsk, tsk.

So...what do you do about harassers? Just ignore them like
you usually do?

I went through a somewhat-similar exercise with antenna information here on
rrap. Took me a few go-rounds to realize that no matter what I did, the
newcomer would be overly critical, and reject all my options and suggestions.
I think his real motive was to waste my time and try to make me look bad. So I
just quit playing that game.

Tsk, tsk!

Real gods of radio (PCTA extras) should NEVER have their
precious time "wasted!" They are too important?


Besides, it is a little bit of fun to watch them fall on their faces
after the confrontation. Then they tend to fall in line - and no "I told
you so's" please!

Or they walk away.

They don't walk away.


The Morse code test could disappear tomorrow, and as long as Hams
encouraged a welcoming atmosphere that encouraged quality, we would get
quality. The test could be retained, and as long as newcomers could have
a reasonable expectation that they would have a good experience, then
the hobby would grow.

We must heal ourselves!

Well said, but I think it's even more basic. Dee said it best: People
aren't
attracted to what they don't know about. Or something similar. Most people
today don't even know amateur radio exists. Or they confuse it with cb.

And if we let them know about it, they become interested, and the first

thing they hear is how stupid new hams are and how BPL is going to
destroy Ham radio so you might as well hang it up, and how they are no
better than a bunch of CB'ers? "Knowing" of *that* is no positive thing.

Apply that same thought to those who go around saying the Morse Code test is
so unfair, it's so hard to learn, the mode is antiquated, buggy-whip
comparisons, etc.

Morse code testing IS unfair.

The mode IS old, slow, and prone to human error.

No other radio service uses morse code for any communications
purposes...or that service never specified its use when that
service was created.

Why do you insist that all amateurs recreate the past so much?


The idea of fishing is not just to let them see the bait. They must be
hooked and landed or else all is for naught.

To a certain extent. However, if someone is cajoled and spoon-fed too much,
they learn to be helpless in certain areas. Then they balme others when they
can't deal with a problem - or they just give up.

Is there a "balme" in Gilead? :-)

ARRL spoon-feeds amateurs what the ARRL wants them to know.

As a result, few amateurs know what happens in the outside world
of REAL radio.

So a balance is needed. And a positive attitude.

For a beginning of that, you (and "Quitefine") ought to learn that
others have differing opinions which are NOT "incorrect."

And the truth is that widespread deployment of BPL would pretty much make HF
useless for most of us hams.

Awwww... About one-third of all U.S. radio amateurs are NOT ALLOWED
on HF.

Are you so elitist that you would continue to disenfranchise one-third
of your own kind by refusing them HF operating privileges?

[rhetorical question...of course you would...QED thousands of your
postings in here...]

Remember Marie A's comment concerning eating and cake.

In article , WA8ULX says...

He has cleaned up his act quite a bit. Wish
I could say the same for Bruce...


Of course Karl has, all he wanted was a FREE RIDE to HF.
And as far as Bruce, forget it, Im not about to change on this subject untill
the CBRRLL, and the FCC correct there mistake.


Hey Bruce, thanks for the gay porn tapes you sent they are hot!

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(William) writes:

Mike Coslo wrote in message
...

And a good guess it is. Kind of flies in the face of those that say one

cannot engage in disagreement with you.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Of course, Steve went on his rampages while I was still being polite to him.

My mistake.

Many readers have made "that mistake."

LHA / WMD

Pretty much what happens when you assume that the other party is sane
when they are not. He's broken.

Hey Bruce, thanks for the gay porn tapes you sent they are hot!

I thought you would enjoy some of your FAMILY pictures. Im sure you liked the
one of you and your DAD. I guess your family belives in keeping it in the
FAMILY.

In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(William) writes:

Mike Coslo wrote in message
...

And a good guess it is. Kind of flies in the face of those that say one

cannot engage in disagreement with you.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Of course, Steve went on his rampages while I was still being polite to
him.

My mistake.

Many readers have made "that mistake."

LHA / WMD

Pretty much what happens when you assume that the other party is sane
when they are not. He's broken.

Not quite. He hasn't been newsgroup house-broken yet. :-)