Robert Casey wrote in
:

Phil Kane wrote:


The questions come out of computer at a speed which is dependent on
how fast the applicant is answering them. Scramble the questions
and the multi-choice answers so that if one memorizes the "little
red book" of all the questions and answers it won't help unless
s/he understands and knows the material.

The machine keeps feeding questions until it is a guaranteed "pass"
or a guaranteed "fail" and then it terminates the exam session. The
applicant does not know whether s/he passed or not until the
results are sent by mail. Just like the olden days.....



Back in 1994 I lived in Oregon for a year. The written driver's test at
the DMV was
done with a computer with touch screen. I knew how many questions I got
wrong, but
lost track of how many more I had to complete during the test. Then it
told me that
I passed and my score, around 92%.

Paper tests generated just before the VE session via computer would be
cheaper and
easier than dedicated hardware like that DMV had anyway.



It wouldn't need dedicated hardware - just software

In article , Mike Coslo writes:

That's the way to do it. By the time, I got my General, I was actually
pretty used to HF operation. As a tech, I had operated in some contests
that the club participated in, plus a field day. (to the sticklers -
yes, with a control op)

They tricked me! Got me hooked on contesting, and I had no choice but
to upgrade!!!

bwaahaahaaa! You've been barracuda'ed.

Well they really didn't trick me, but it worked out that
way anyhow.

(Jacques Cousteau voice ON)

".......ze barracudaz veecteemz often do not reelize zay are veecteemz unteel
too late..."

(Jacques Cousteau voice OFF)

But every time I try out a different mode, I spen weeks listening
before I ever transmit. I hope these new people will do the same.

This is one thing which has changed radically since I was a newbie.

Back in the bad old days, many if not most prospective hams started out with a
shortwave rx, listening to other hams on the air. Most of us had many hours of
SW listening experience before we ever took a license test. I and many others
learned the code by listening to hams use it on the air - no tapes, no software
packages, etc.

Starting out this way meant we already had some real hands-on experience in
operating procedure, propagation, receiver operation and related subjects
before we ever got on the air. We also had most of what was needed for a ham
shack of that era - receiver, antenna, key, 'phones, and a desk or table to put
it on. When the license test was passed, all that was left to do was add the
transmitter and T/R system.

In my case, I built my first transmitter while waiting for the license to
arrive.

From what I've read and seen, many newcomers today get the license first, then
set about putting a station together. Some did it that way back when, too - and
often they were the ones whose Novice licenses ran out before they were ready
for the General test.

Cart before the horse, IMHO.

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:
Radio Amateur KC2HMZ wrote in message . ..

On 07 Jul 2003 11:11:10 GMT, (N2EY) wrote:


some snippage


One of the problems with skill testing is that the test has to
actually include the skill - it can't be a purely paper test and
actually mean anything. (You can't judge my bicycle-riding or
stick-shift skills with a written test). And such testing means a
separate test element and the same problems that come with the code
test.


The dropping of the code test will not be accompanied by a significant,
sustained increase in growth rate of the ARS. There may be a short term
surge,
and lots of upgrades, but total numbers will not skyrocket.

Seems to me that the outcome, in this regard, is up to us. We have an
opportunity to start a significant influx of good operators into the
ARS provided we're willing to identify them and elmer them and welcome
them into the ranks, so to speak.

Those of us who go out of our way to meet these people and convince
them to get into the club meetings and the VE sessions, and who answer
questions and provide the guidance the newcomers will need and then
accept and respect them as fellow hams should, will be taking good
advantage of the opportunity.


I agree with all of the that - but a lot of it comes down to publicity
for the ARS, and the simple fact that most people are not interested
in radio as an end in itself. There's a limit to how much we can
"sell" amateur radio. The trick is to identify those who are really
interested, and help them out.

Right. The ARS is simply not for everyone. People who try to make it
that way are just spinning their wheels. You need a technical bent, and
getting a thrill out of sending a teeny signal across the world helps too.


Those of us who spend our time coming up with witty and derogatory
names like Extra Lite and insist on distinguishing between No-Code and
Know-Code and go out of their way to make people feel like
second-class citizens will be letting the opportunity just slide on by
and will be doing a disservice to the ARS.


Agreed - and I challenge you to find any postings of mine where I have
done any of that.

I am an Extra lite, I was a No-Code Tech at one time. I'm also a hockey
puck and a few other things.

Seriously, there isn't anyone around that someone doesn't like, so we
just have to work on being less sensitive.

I was sitting around a dinner table with some friend hams, and the
conversation shifted to licensing. One of the guys noted how "Any moron
can become an Extra now." I just chuckled and said, "and I am the proof
of that!" He was a bit embarrassed, but I took no offense and made a
joke of it.

More snippage



Yet, how many hams do you know of who have even heard of ALE, outisde
of those in this forum where I know the subject has come up
previously? How many hams in your local club know what ALE is? How
many would be willing to accept and use it if they did?


Many of us know what ALE is, and even how it could be used on the
amateur bands.

The bigger question is - why would hams want to use ALE for normal
amateur operation? The whole point of ALE is to reduce/eliminate the
need for a knowledgeable operator. In fact, if you look at most
nonamateur radio equipment design philosophies, one of the driving
forces behind them is to replace the skilled "radio operator" with a
relatively unskilled "user", who doesn't really know what's going on -
and doesn't have to. Consider the nearly-ubiquitous cell phone - none
of the radio-specific functions are controlled by the user at all! In
fact, far too many people don't even realize a cell phone is a radio
transceiver. (I recall an indignant fellow airline passenger telling
me "I can use this while we take off! It's a TELEPHONE, not a
RADIO!!")

I don't know whether to laugh or cry!


snippage again

Especially since there
will undoubtedly be those who will not welcome them at all, and in
fact do quite the opposite.


A few. That's not a new thing - ever hear of the fellow who used to
call CQ on 75 AM and add "no kids, no lids, no space cadets, Class A
operators only"?


Radio Amateur KC2HMZ is simply wrong here. And old mister No kids, no
lids is just the exception that proves the rule.

Most all hams, even those who think that elimination of the Morse code
requirement is the beginning of the end of Western civilization, are
very welcoming of new people.

Sometimes when we think everyone around us is nasty, we need to look to
ourselves for the problem.


Those of us who wish to take advantage of
this opportunity will have to work doubly hard in order to overcome
the harm done by the minority that will attempt to ostracize and chase
away the newcomers, forgetting that they were newcomers themselves
once upon a time.


All true. Actually, it doesn't seem like that long ago that I was a
newcomer.

But there is also the reverse problem: Newcomers who do not want
advice or elmering from the "old f@#$S", no matter how it is offered.
I've been on the receiving end of that more than a few times. What's
the right approach - just ignore them?

Eventually, that's all you can do, if the person insists on being
nasty. It's also important to remember that that same peron will
probably spend time moaning about "those rotten hams".

- Mike KB3EIA -

Larry Roll K3LT wrote:
In article , JJ
writes:


Do you have
something
against operator skill -- or are you one of those New Age hams that think
yakking into a microphone is all the demonstration of operator skill that
should
ever be required of you?

Do you have something against someone who has no desire to operate
CW?


In a way, I do -- because their lack of desire to operate CW is usually
based on a lack of willingness to break their inertia and get down to
learning it. It's called laziness. Yup, that's right -- the "L" word.
L-A-Z-I-N-E-S-S. Hams who don't care or "don't want" to learn Morse code
are just plain old LAZY. Period. End of Story. Consider yourself to
have been grabbed by the collar and beaten with a club called The Truth!!!

You are a real piece of work Larry. I haven't worked CW in years,
I still could but I just have no desire to talk in code when I can
speak very well.
Do you use a automobile to get from one distant place to another?
You do? That is pure laziness, the "L" word. Why don't you ride a
horse, bicycle, or better yet, walk. That is what folks did before
the automobile came along. You are just plain old LAZY. You have a
long way to go to ever grab me by the collar and you can't handle
the truth. End of story.


There are many different modes of operation in ham radio, do
you operate them all?


Nope, not all -- but certainly a whole lot more than most hams do.

If that is what floats your boat, knock yourself out, but those
who choose not to play the ham radio game the same way you do does
not mean they are any less of a ham, except to your "I am
superior" way of thinking. Why don't you operate all the modes,
too lazy?

And
you know something totally strange? My Morse/CW proficiency doesn't
interfere one little bit in my enjoyment of other modes!


And you know something even more strange? For many hams, not being
as proficient as you claim to be in CW, and/or not operating in
that mode does not interfere one little bit with their enjoyment
of other modes either, and that includes myself.

Robert Casey wrote:


Back in the early days of my HF career, I figured that if the band seems
empty, well either
propagation is out or everyone's asleep or at work or such. In any
event, there's nobody
to qso with, so check other bands.

But--- did you listen carefully for any very weak signals on CW? Often that
is the clue to what's happening, or about to happen, on an otherwise seemingly
dead band.
Sometimes when you tune around carefully, listening for any hint of signals,
you'll start something - you hear a very weak one, peak him up with your
receiver filtering, whatever you have to work with, listen long enough to ID him
and where he's located. If he signs off with the station he's working, and
you've tuned up, you give him a call. If he's copying as well as you, he answers
and suddenly you've turned a dead band into a QSO. More often than not, others
will hear you two in QSO and next thing you know they're either calling in
tailending you, or calling CQ nearby and drumming up their own contact. When you
next tune around, there'll be several QSO's going on on the "dead" band.

This scene plays out far more often than you would think, or used to back when
HF experienced hams were the norm rather than the exception. Sure is worth
trying, anyway.

Dick

JJ wrote:


Larry Roll K3LT wrote:



Yup -- got it right that time. CW *is* an operator skill.


Yes it is.

Do you have
something
against operator skill -- or are you one of those New Age hams that think
yakking into a microphone is all the demonstration of operator skill that
should
ever be required of you?


Do you have something against someone who has no desire to operate CW?
There are many different modes of operation in ham radio, do you operate
them all?

No more than I have against someone who chooses to do satellite work,
while I have to test for it.

Rf Safety is required to be calculated for by people when they run over
a certain power. Why should someone who never intends to work over 50
watts have to test for RF safety?

If someone never intends to homebrew, why should they test on any
equations.


Sounds like we should maybe make up our own tests.


Funny -- nobody has ever been able to "discourage" me from doing anything
I wanted to do. I just went ahead and did it. I could care less what
other
people think, do,


The proper phrase is "I could NOT care less what other people think"


I could not care less if I could care less. 8^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

JJ wrote:


Mike Coslo wrote:

Larry Roll K3LT wrote:



Yup -- got it right that time. CW *is* an operator skill.

Do you have
something
against operator skill -- or are you one of those New Age hams that
think
yakking into a microphone is all the demonstration of operator skill
that
should
ever be required of you?




Do you have something against someone who has no desire to operate
CW? There are many different modes of operation in ham radio, do you
operate them all?



No more than I have against someone who chooses to do satellite
work, while I have to test for it.


What if you decide at some later time to do satellite work?

Correct!

Rf Safety is required to be calculated for by people when they run
over a certain power. Why should someone who never intends to work
over 50 watts have to test for RF safety?


What if they decide at some later point to increase their power?


Correct!

If someone never intends to homebrew, why should they test on any
equations.



What is they suddenly get the urge to build a homebrew transmitter or
amplifier?

Correct!


Sounds like we should maybe make up our own tests.


Maybe you had rather be call in to be tested on a new mode each time you
decide to operate a new mode.


Correct!
You do know I'm being a devil's advocate here?


Or better said, I really believe that an prospective amateur should get
as much education as possible. Removing the Morse code requirement,
while celebrated by some hams and prospective hams, is not a good
thing. They who celebrate this are celebrating advancement of ignorance.



- Mike KB3EIA -

"Arnie Macy" wrote in message
...
"Leland C. Scott" wrote ...

Are you really that "dense" Arnie where you
can't figure it out on your
own?

73's de,

Leland C. Scott
KC8LDO

ARRL member
NCI member

__________________________________________________
________________

Nope, but anybody who refers to a straight key
as a "code key" and sends
73's is.

Dah, you mean all those fine southern operators on
75m that claim to have been Hams since the dawn of
the dinosaur have it all wrong! Gee I didn't know
that. ;-) My favorite group to monitor hangs out
around 3950 KHz more or less. One or more of them
have even offered to Elmer R.H. on several
occasions between beers.

--
Leland C. Scott
KC8LDO

ARRL Member
NCI Member

Charter member of the
Lawrence Technological University
Wireless Society W8LTU

Alun Palmer wrote:
Robert Casey wrote in
:


Phil Kane wrote:


The questions come out of computer at a speed which is dependent on
how fast the applicant is answering them. Scramble the questions
and the multi-choice answers so that if one memorizes the "little
red book" of all the questions and answers it won't help unless
s/he understands and knows the material.

The machine keeps feeding questions until it is a guaranteed "pass"
or a guaranteed "fail" and then it terminates the exam session. The
applicant does not know whether s/he passed or not until the
results are sent by mail. Just like the olden days.....




Back in 1994 I lived in Oregon for a year. The written driver's test at
the DMV was
done with a computer with touch screen. I knew how many questions I got
wrong, but
lost track of how many more I had to complete during the test. Then it
told me that
I passed and my score, around 92%.

Paper tests generated just before the VE session via computer would be
cheaper and
easier than dedicated hardware like that DMV had anyway.




It wouldn't need dedicated hardware - just software

Whatcha gonna run that software on?


- Mike KB3EIA -

N2EY wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo writes:


That's the way to do it. By the time, I got my General, I was actually
pretty used to HF operation. As a tech, I had operated in some contests
that the club participated in, plus a field day. (to the sticklers -
yes, with a control op)

They tricked me! Got me hooked on contesting, and I had no choice but
to upgrade!!!


bwaahaahaaa! You've been barracuda'ed.


Well they really didn't trick me, but it worked out that
way anyhow.


(Jacques Cousteau voice ON)

".......ze barracudaz veecteemz often do not reelize zay are veecteemz unteel
too late..."

(Jacques Cousteau voice OFF)

But every time I try out a different mode, I spen weeks listening
before I ever transmit. I hope these new people will do the same.


This is one thing which has changed radically since I was a newbie.

Back in the bad old days, many if not most prospective hams started out with a
shortwave rx, listening to other hams on the air. Most of us had many hours of
SW listening experience before we ever took a license test. I and many others
learned the code by listening to hams use it on the air - no tapes, no software
packages, etc.

Starting out this way meant we already had some real hands-on experience in
operating procedure, propagation, receiver operation and related subjects
before we ever got on the air. We also had most of what was needed for a ham
shack of that era - receiver, antenna, key, 'phones, and a desk or table to put
it on. When the license test was passed, all that was left to do was add the
transmitter and T/R system.

In my case, I built my first transmitter while waiting for the license to
arrive.

From what I've read and seen, many newcomers today get the license first, then
set about putting a station together. Some did it that way back when, too - and
often they were the ones whose Novice licenses ran out before they were ready
for the General test.

Cart before the horse, IMHO.

It does make for some awkwardness. My own introduction to the ARS came
because I thought it might be nice to make use of the local autopatch in
support of one of my other hobbies, 4 wheeling. My wife is reasonable
about my getting stuck in the woods and having to dig myself out, but
she kinda likes to know about the delay.

So I got the tech license, and then joined the local club. The guys and
gals were great, and invited me to the local shack for a contest, and
bam, the rest is history.

So I had an unorthodox beginning in the hobby, and my licensing level
outraced my operating ability for some time. So it's just my experience
that makes me think about the mandatory wait period being a good thing.

- Mike KB3EIA -