"David Stinson" wrote in message
...

Money talks, public service walks- BPL is a certainty.

Money's the half of it. Ego and politics are the other half. Pols like
Michael Powell and Billy Tauzin want credit for sweeping away all those
presumably outmoded concerns about RFI so people in rural areas can get the
on ramp to the modern hi-speed info superhighway right there in their
fusebox.


The "null it out- anyone can do it" argument is crap-
works well in theory, poorly in the field.
Even with excellent nulling, QRP and other weak signal work is finished.
Shortwave DXing is finished.

You have three choices-
Give up radio.
Move far enough into the country to avoid the polluted grid,
"Gorilla warfare-" Power lines that leak out, can also leak IN.
50 watts of broadband noise generator plugged into the nearest socket
would do. Note that I would never advocate anything illegal.....
D.S.

As a former US President said, "We could do it, but it would be wrong."

I have to wonder how much BPL access would be knocked out by a sparky old
ozone generating vacuum cleaner. One room? A few houses?

And let's not forget our old nemisis, the bargain basement switchmode
computer power supply. I have one which pumps enough hashy variable
frequency hets to overwhelm even strong local broadcast stations on a radio
in the same room.

Some thief ran, well -- hobbled, off with my arc welder a few years ago. I
never replaced it. Good thing, I now realize.

I kinda doubt electrical interference would cut off somebody's BPL access
entirely. I picture the error rate going up and up, and the connection
speeds going down and down. Maybe even slower than dial-up. Even worse,
the guy who pays for BPL is likely to blame the power company, rather than
the real culprit -- the clown who just doesn't give a damn about RFI.

Frank Dresser

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 16:43:12 GMT, Frank Dresser wrote:

Even worse,
the guy who pays for BPL is likely to blame the power company, rather than
the real culprit -- the clown who just doesn't give a damn about RFI.

Aren't they the same in that situation ??

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

"Phil Kane" wrote in message
et...
On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 16:43:12 GMT, Frank Dresser wrote:

Even worse,
the guy who pays for BPL is likely to blame the power company, rather
than
the real culprit -- the clown who just doesn't give a damn about RFI.

Aren't they the same in that situation ??

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane



Partly. The power company doesn't care. The FCC seems lax in Part 15
enforcement, among other things. Certain congressmen seem to think the only
impediments to the Jetson way of life are outmoded regulations. The
neighbors only think of interference when Tom Brokaw turns green and they
blame it on the SWL's random wire antenna.

The only people who give a damn about RFI are the people who use radio.

I'm not an expert on BPL, but I don't have any faith in the FCC's ability to
look past a glossy demo and into the real world, either. If I had been
invited to the demos, I'd have brought my old vacuum cleaner and my
homebuilt PC with the noisy power supply(which, I assume, is good under Part
15 regs. Ha!). I think somebody would give a damn if everyday electrical
noisemakers slowed BPL.

Frank Dresser

David,

Looks like I'm going to have to research some nice linear as well as a
decent HF station. I had been looking at a vertical to avoid all of the
horizontal lines in the neighborhood, but, on second thought ... 1500 watts
horizontally polarized, 50 feet from the power lines might prove interesting


73 from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA
ps - we need a study as to where the biggest ingress will occur


"David Stinson" wrote in message
...

Money talks, public service walks- BPL is a certainty.

The "null it out- anyone can do it" argument is crap-
works well in theory, poorly in the field.
Even with excellent nulling, QRP and other weak signal work is finished.
Shortwave DXing is finished.

You have three choices-
Give up radio.
Move far enough into the country to avoid the polluted grid,
"Gorilla warfare-" Power lines that leak out, can also leak IN.
50 watts of broadband noise generator plugged into the nearest socket
would do. Note that I would never advocate anything illegal.....
D.S.


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"Mike Coslo" wrote

Have any of these Genii given any though of what would happen to bpl
during solar event?

Probably nothing at all. BPL operates on conducted RF, not radiated RF.
A solar event might put a random pulse or two on the grid, but not a
sustained coherent signal which might impair BPL. By the way, BPL would
also care little about random white noise.

73, Hans



--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Amazing, a scenario where an SWL would move into the city because of
less QRN.


On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:41:04 GMT, David Stinson
wrote:


Money talks, public service walks- BPL is a certainty.

The "null it out- anyone can do it" argument is crap-
works well in theory, poorly in the field.
Even with excellent nulling, QRP and other weak signal work is finished.
Shortwave DXing is finished.

You have three choices-
Give up radio.
Move far enough into the country to avoid the polluted grid,
"Gorilla warfare-" Power lines that leak out, can also leak IN.
50 watts of broadband noise generator plugged into the nearest socket
would do. Note that I would never advocate anything illegal.....
D.S.

Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...

Have any of these Genii given any though of what would happen to bpl
during solar event?

Maybe the FCC can serve an enforcement letter to the sun! 8^)

- Mike KB3EIA -



Or how about some high intensity E-skip. 70 over 9 broadband crap
inputing someone elses system. Gotta be fun.

Of course they didn't think it out. If they did it would never have made it
to this stage.

BINGO!

The reason that lights and motors work well enough is that they aren't
affected by the junk that gets impressed on the power lines.

And finally, just finally, I wonder exactly HOW the power companies are
going to respond to the problems of their OWN RFI generation?

Lessee, lets look at the enforcement letters from the FCC. Many of them
are to power providers because of equipment that is interfering with
some ham somewhere. It has to get to the enforcement stage, for crying
out loud. So are the Power companies going to replace all those
transfprmers and other power line junk that is spewing out RFI for the
BPL'ers?

- Mike KB3EIA -

"Jim Hampton" wrote in message
...
David,

Looks like I'm going to have to research some nice linear as well as a
decent HF station. I had been looking at a vertical to avoid all of the
horizontal lines in the neighborhood, but, on second thought ... 1500
watts
horizontally polarized, 50 feet from the power lines might prove
interesting


73 from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA
ps - we need a study as to where the biggest ingress will occur



Hmmm. I can't imagine any way Ham radio interference would do any good,
even if legal. Interference might not have effect it at all. Or it might
cause a slowdown the BPL user would attribute to internet congestion. If
the BPL user believes interference is casuing a problem with his gee-whiz
powerline internet access, he's gonna squak to the power company and maybe
the FCC. Face it, radio hobbyists are in no position for poor public
relations. There are more people who will be attracted to the bright, shiny
promise of BPL than there are radio hobbyists. Considering the numbers,
would it be unlikely for the FCC to redefine the interference limits?

I'd be curious to know how vunerable BPL is to interference. I have no
doubt the BPL people have run tests, and I'm a little surprised they're not
at the front of a webpage somewhere. Ham radio may not have alot of effect.
The power lines will only absorb a fraction of what's transmitted, and will
probably re-radiate most of that. I would think interference from devices
plugged directly into the lines would have the most effect. Like spikey old
universal motors and cheap switchmode power supplies.

Politically, it's far better if damaging interference comes from everyday
objects around the home. Like the vacuum cleaner, the microwave oven, the
kid's computer, etc.

And nothing will help as much as bringing new people into the radio hobby.

Frank Dresser

"Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote


And what would happen if a thousand breakers tripped and the lights go out
again? Is the conducted RF going to pass through the 'ether' ?


Uh, don't look now but if "a thousand breakers tripped" the steenking
computers won't power up anyhow and it's a moot point.

73, de Hans, K0HB

"Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote


Or how about some high intensity E-skip.


BPL works on conducted signals, not radiated signals. The power grid
is an incredibly poor receiving antenna, so any microvolt-level or
even millivolt-level signal from "out there" won't even show up on the
copper.

73, de Hans, K0HB
--
"Reality doesn't care what you believe." -- K0HB