On Thu, 04 Sep 2003 13:50:54 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:



Bob Brock wrote:
On 4 Sep 2003 05:25:03 -0700, (Brian) wrote:


Bob Brock wrote in message . ..


On a related question, is it pro coders intention to boycott QSO's
with countries that have already dropped the code requirement for HF
work? Do you guys refuse to talk to Australians now?

In the event they have that country confirmed for DXCC, they will boycott.


I was asking about you guys, not what they will do. Afterall, I've
boycotted General and above for about 9 years now because of
antiquated requirements.

Your loss, dude.

If you wait long enough, the writtens might go away too.

No, the writen exams have a basis in the real world. Code just has
it's basis as a historical antiquity. I'm more than willing to do
whatever is necessary to prove profiency in radio operation.


Hey Carl, here's one of your new guys!

Im sure that this has some type of significance for you, but it's lost
on me.

No, the writen exams have a basis in the real world.

And what Value is that? The present writtens dont test for knowledge

On 05 Sep 2003 02:58:33 GMT, (WA8ULX) wrote:

No, the writen exams have a basis in the real world.

And what Value is that? The present writtens dont test for knowledge

Then what do you think that they test for?

Then what do you think that they test for?

Oh I know what they Test for, and it is not knowledge,it is nothing then
Memozizing some Q&As that have no meaning to the test taker. The writtens are
nothing more than jumping thru hoops

On 05 Sep 2003 03:41:16 GMT, (WA8ULX) wrote:

Then what do you think that they test for?

Oh I know what they Test for, and it is not knowledge,it is nothing then
Memozizing some Q&As that have no meaning to the test taker. The writtens are
nothing more than jumping thru hoops

In other words, since they provide the question pool, you don't think
that people have to learn the answers in order to correctly answer the
questions? How do you think that they figure out how to fill in the
correct answer then?

You weren't provided with an answer sheet where you only had to
memorize the correct sequence were you?

I used to train people at a nuclear power plant. The way I did it was
to provide the students with a list of objectives, which were usually
in the form of questions. I told them up front that when I was
finished with the class, I expected to have covered those objectives
and that they needed to know the answers. When I wrote the test, you
know where the questions came from? Yup, they came from those
objectives word for word because that was what I wanted them to learn.
So, if they would study those objectives and know the answers to those
objectives, they could pass the tests with no problems. We didn't
play games with them and train them on objectives and test them on
something unrelated. We taught them, they learned what we wanted them
to learn and we validated that they had learned it without playing
mind games with them by extending the tests beyond the objectives.

That worked very well in a nuclear environment. We maintained a SALP
1 from the NRC during the time frame I was there and I was there for
quite a while. Perhaps it's you contention that getting a license to
operate a radio is somehow more complex than the nuclear environment,
but that's simply not true and anyone who is rational would know that.
In both cases, the material is taught and the student learns it or
they don't pass the test.

In article , Bob Brock
writes:

On 05 Sep 2003 03:41:16 GMT, (WA8ULX) wrote:

Then what do you think that they test for?

Oh I know what they Test for, and it is not knowledge,it is nothing then
Memozizing some Q&As that have no meaning to the test taker. The writtens
are nothing more than jumping thru hoops

Bob,

If you're bothering to argue with Bruce....

In other words, since they provide the question pool, you don't think
that people have to learn the answers in order to correctly answer the
questions? How do you think that they figure out how to fill in the
correct answer then?

You weren't provided with an answer sheet where you only had to
memorize the correct sequence were you?

The point is that the level of UNDERSTANDING required to pass the writtens
today is a lot less than it would be if the actual Q&A were not made public.

I used to train people at a nuclear power plant. The way I did it was
to provide the students with a list of objectives, which were usually
in the form of questions. I told them up front that when I was
finished with the class, I expected to have covered those objectives
and that they needed to know the answers. When I wrote the test, you
know where the questions came from? Yup, they came from those
objectives word for word because that was what I wanted them to learn.
So, if they would study those objectives and know the answers to those
objectives, they could pass the tests with no problems.

OK, fine.

Did they KNOW, from Day 1, that the test they would be taking would consist of
the exact questions and answers you gave them on Day 1?

Was the passing grade 74%?

Was there a penalty for wrong answers?

We didn't
play games with them and train them on objectives and test them on
something unrelated. We taught them, they learned what we wanted them
to learn and we validated that they had learned it without playing
mind games with them by extending the tests beyond the objectives.

Nobody's saying the tests should go beyond the stated objectives.

That worked very well in a nuclear environment.

I imagine that the class has a lot of motivation towards safety.

We maintained a SALP
1 from the NRC during the time frame I was there and I was there for
quite a while.

Were the employees tested once at the beginning of their employment at the
plant, and never again? Or was continuing education an integral part of that
environment?

Perhaps it's you contention that getting a license to
operate a radio is somehow more complex than the nuclear environment,
but that's simply not true and anyone who is rational would know that.

Not a question of complexity.

In both cases, the material is taught and the student learns it or
they don't pass the test.

Not all hams take formal classes - in fact, most probably don't.

In the bad old days, the FCC published a study guide that listed, in essay
form, the type of questions and typical solutions that would be found on the
tests. For example, there were questions about Ohm's Law for a DC circuit and
how to solve them. Any prospective ham knew he/she would be expected to know
how to solve E = I/R and P = IE problems, resistors in series, parallel and
series-parallel, etc. And anybody who had a basic UNDERSTANDING of that stuff
would have no problem on those test questions.

But the actual Q&A were not made public. Today, with the actual Q&A in hand,
less understanding is required.

That's what bothers some folks.

Consider this: Today, the test for Tech is 35 questions from a published pool.
Most of those questions are on regulations, with some operating practices,
theory and safety stuff. Yet the license granted for passing that test gives
alla amateur privileges above 30 MHz, including the authorization to design,
build, repair, align, modify and most of all operate transmitters of up to 1500
W power output on 'meat cooking frequencies' as WK3C puts it. There is no
separate safety testing nor ongoing education - someone can get all of the RF
exposure questions wrong and still pass.

Do you think that the test and its methods are really adequate for the
privileges granted?

FCC does. In fact, back in 2000 they lowered the written requirement for the
Tech license by almost half.

73 de Jim, N2EY

How do you think that they figure out how to fill in the
correct answer then?


Its called memorizing, no knowledge. If question about the material most
wouldnt have a Clue.

You weren't provided with an answer sheet where you only had to
memorize the correct sequence were you?

No I wasnt, I knew the Info.



Perhaps it's you contention that getting a license to
operate a radio is somehow more complex than the nuclear environment,

No not really, anymore its a waste of time the way the present written is
setup.

"Bob Brock" wrote in message
...
On 05 Sep 2003 03:41:16 GMT, (WA8ULX) wrote:

Then what do you think that they test for?

Oh I know what they Test for, and it is not knowledge,it is nothing then
Memozizing some Q&As that have no meaning to the test taker. The writtens
are
nothing more than jumping thru hoops

In other words, since they provide the question pool, you don't think
that people have to learn the answers in order to correctly answer the
questions? How do you think that they figure out how to fill in the
correct answer then?


Both the pool AND answers are published.

Let's take a typical question:

What is the length of a dipole for 14.240Mhz?

Now since the questions AND answers are published, the prospective test
taker can simply memorize the numerical answer instead of having to learn
the appropriate equation and how to use that equation. Using the memorize
the numerical answer approach, the new ham has passed the test but is unable
to calculate the dipole that he/she may actually want to build for operating

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

WA8ULX wrote:
Then what do you think that they test for?


Oh I know what they Test for, and it is not knowledge,it is nothing then
Memozizing some Q&As that have no meaning to the test taker. The writtens are
nothing more than jumping thru hoops

What the heck is "Memozizing"? Man, what a third grade education
will do for you.

What the heck is "Memozizing"?

I wondered how long it would take you fools to catch that.