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Clint wrote:
We can have plenty of fun in here arguing with each other without resorting to that. Think about it Clint. I have and reject the premis of your argument. It sounds as though the PCTA crowd is really sour that they have been correctly labeled for what they are, and are so mad about it that they're resorting to some sort of bleeding heart tactic to side step the argument. You must be liberals. And I think YOU are FRENCH!!! Are you French, Clint? It is fascinating to read your repulsive posts about equating Pro-coder with Nazi's. Just fascinating. However, you have convinced me of one thing.I think you are perhaps the epitome of the No-coder, the brave new ham that takes the ARS into the 21st century. If you do not like what I say, then you have two options; do not read my posts, or, crawl under the covers and hide from the coldness of reality and the true sensations of the world... ...and put me on your "block senders" list. Nahh, I will read your posts, and in the off chance there is something of intelligence in them, perhaps I will reply. I read everyone's posts. No need to crawl under the covers. - Mike KB3EIA - |
Clint wrote: We can have plenty of fun in here arguing with each other without resorting to that. Think about it Clint. I have and reject the premis of your argument. SO what you are saying is that you HAVE to call us Nazi's, Clint? You have my pity, Clint, you really do. - Mike KB3EIA - |
Arnie Macy wrote:
"Clint" wrote in part ... If you have been hiding in a cave for the last many years and didn't bring yourself out into the sunlight and fresh oxegen long enough to know what the reference means, then i'll educate you. It was a symbolic reference to any group, such as the brown shirts of the aforementioned group, and ultimately the national socialist party itself that ascended to power, of ramming thier radical ideas down people throats without regard to anything but it's own desire and wishes, no matter how useful, unuseful or down right malevolent. __________________________________________________ __________________ What a complete and total jerk you are. If you had even one shred of decency, or you had family members that had died at the hands of the Nazis (as I have) -- you would *never* use the term in the above context. I dunno, Arnie. From what I've seen in his posts, Clint knows absolutely everything. After all just read the lecture he gave you about that group. I pity him though. - Mike KB3EIA - |
In article , Mike Coslo
writes: Arnie Macy wrote: "Mike Coslo" wrote ... Hey, Arnie! If "personal character attacks are an admission of defeat, why don't you ask Clint about calling us N***'s? He must really be admitting defeat if he both calls us that *and* invokes Godwin's law. __________________________________________________ ____________ Many of my ancestors met the "real" Nazis and never survived. I think too many people (including Clint) use the term without really knowing what implication it truly has. As to me admitting defeat, he is just exercising wishful thinking. Yup, no one who had any real dealing with them personally, or through family would ever spout that off. That's why Godwin's law is what it is. Does "Godwin's Law" demand strict adherence to morseodism? We can have plenty of fun in here arguing with each other without resorting to that. We can't if Ah-nold the Codinator has a hissy-fit every time someone refuses to admire his code key. Think about it Clint. Think about penalty box time for sticking...or trying to stick it to someone, Michael. LHA |
In article , "Arnie Macy"
writes: "Clint" wrote ... and just fill in the blanks as to what a N*** is, and we'll see if I was guilty of calling you an inflammatory and insulting name. _________________________________________________ _________ My Polish ancestors know very well what the word "Nazi" means. Many of them met the real ones sixty years ago and didn't survive. Yet you had enough "Polish ancestors" that survived so that you were created... Are ANCESTORS now to be a "credential" for qualified commentary on amateur radio?!?!? Radio as a communications medium was first demonstrated in 1896 in Italy and in 1896 in Russia. Electronic history doesn't have much to say about Polish radio. The acronym "NAZI" is formed from German words meaning (literal translation) 'National Socialist Party.' [National Socialistiche Partei] In the pronunciation of the German word for 'National' it sounds to have a Z in it, therefore the acronym has a Z in it. You seem to use the word with abandon, without having a single clue as to what it *really* means, and to whom it refers. In colloquial American English, the word 'nazi' (all lower-case) has come to mean nearly any in-your-face extremist group wanting Their Way (or else!). Hence "smoking nazis" and feminist "nazis" sometimes referred to as "feminazis" as two examples. Do you need any more help on etymology? LHA |
In article , Dick Carroll
writes: Brian wrote: Dick Carroll wrote in message ... Robert wrote: "Dick Carroll" wrote I am capable of passing any sort of radio traffic by way of radiotelgraphy, I'd like to see you pass a weather satellite photo fax via radiotelegraphy.... Uh,, Bob, that isn't traffic, It's *data*. I guess if you were really familiar with radio you;d know that, wouldn't you? Uhhh, DICK, you should know that weather data can be passed via many modes, and that satellite imagery is referred to as wefax or wxsat. Typically, what is called "DATA" is RTTY. No, Brian, digital information that is not analog voice is generally known as data tansmission. Only in "Tansania." :-) At home, my wife and I enjoy watching and listening to cable service that is ALL DIGITAL carrying many more TV channels than the old analog cable service PLUS carrying over three dozen binaural, Dolby enhanced specialty music channels carrying both voice and music. US military field radio routinely uses DIGITAL modes in sending all kinds of communications material...facsimile, scanned images, voice, text, almost anything. In the field or at permanent bases. No problem. Why DO you have such a problem with newer technology? But all that is old technology. Today, we get our weather via wideband, though you're free to play with UKMO and NAM transmissions. I guess you missed the entire point that WEFAX isn't in any circumstance handled by Morse code. That is reserved for text communications or coded letter groups. "Coded letter groups?!?!?" Old-timer, you are still STUCK in technology of a half-century ago. Even then, "coded letter groups" were fast disappearing in encrypted communications. [those are alive only in fictional novels and in the minds of old-timers] Couldn't be much of a difference since you obviously don't know why. And I know why you don't. You're simply ignorant about weather comms. Stick to things you know, such as CW and more CW. When you're done talking about CW, you could switch to Morse so you don't sound like a broken record. More gibberish and attempted bafflegab. That's all you know so you stick to it. Brian has good advice for you. Try heeding it. If you don't, you will remain an ignorant old-timer unable to comprehend a modern world. LHA |
In article , Mike Coslo
writes: Arnie, This Clint character uses this sort of 'arguement' on everything he does. Yet he claims 'knowledge' of the subject after saying basically that unless you were there, you know nothing about it. He shoots himself in the foot here as he does with the pro code testing commentary. In fact his arguement proves he is just being a world class smart ass. In otherwords let it go Arnie. May I express my sincere regrets that you have such a knowledge of those NAZI *******s. As well it's unfortunate we know people that think that it is a fine argument technique to invoke them as a pejorative description. That is sad, sad sad. I think you've been hit with too many hockeypucks without wearing a helmet. NOWHERE can any rational mind connect WANTING TO ELIMINATE AN AMATEUR RADIO CODE TEST with the HOLOCAUST of WW2! If you have a need for that, then you also have a need for mental therapy. It is also indicative of a person that doesn't play well with others Yes, on Macy's side. He can't stomach any opposition to some of his hobby preferences so he pulls off this "ancestral insult" bull****. Poor baby. Has to rule the playground or he has a hissy fit. Clint doesn't play well with the other boys and girls. Well, Mikey, YOU go and play with other boys and girls. Meanwhile, us ADULTS will continue to bring up the SUBJECT of MORSE CODE TESTING...not "outrage about ancestral insults." Cheap, Mikey, you really cheap... LHA |
In article , "Arnie Macy"
writes: Clint, This is not a game where you hit home runs. This is a newsgroup. It would seem that ANY trick is okay to win message points. This is a serious subject. Yes. Ah-nold the Codinator got his sword knotted. I'm a few years older than you, so it stands to reason that I've had the opportunity to speak directly with many of the members of my family who survived the Nazis' attempt to exterminate them in Poland. Kiddo, I'm a few years older than YOU, but don't have any "ancestors" who were in concentration camps. Instead, I've talked DIRECTLY to those who were there, even a couple of ex-soldiers who helped liberate one camp. Lots of those centers for Holocaust remembrance here in Los Angeles. Cut out this totally artificial-to-the-subject "ancestral insult" crap. The word "nazi" (all lower case) has come to mean what Clint said in the American language of TODAY. I listened to them many times over as a young man and understand fully the meaning of the word. I don't subscribe to your loose definition, and neither do the many people who lived under that tyranny. When you use it to describe those that are in favor of code testing in the ARS, you cheapen the meaning, and therefore the memories of all those people who did not survive. You ought to run right down to your nearest Simon Weisenthal Center and TELL THEM ABOUT YOUR OUTRAGE!!!! Please, think about this before you use the word again. That's all that I ask. If the "ancestral outrage/insult" ploy is the best thing you can come up with in a newsgroup concerning the MORSE CODE TEST FOR AMATEUR RADIO LICENSING, you might as well quit trying to post anything. Your artificiality has lost it for you. Negative message points. LHA |
I think that may be a prevailing sentiment and character
trait of that crowd, actually. After talking to them enough, you FINALLY get out of them, as I have, the truth (but I suspected it all along). It's is tantamount to an authoritarian's way of running a government. Free market forces aren't to dictate policy or courses of action, but the pointing of fingers and swinging of riding crops IS. If you read the various responses that a few of the PCTA types have made to all of our comments, it all boils down to the following doctrine... (1) I had to do it, so should YOU. (2) It shouldn't be up to a free citizen to operate as he sees fit; he should do what he's told, for the better good of the existence of the archaic mode in question (CW) (3) Shut up, your opinion in the operation of the government (read: FCC) doesn't matter, and you should not have the the right to have any influence on how it governs you; you're the subject of the empire. (4) The public at large (ham radio operators) should NOT be BURDENED with having to make choices; they should not have the freedom to choose how to use thier skills to the ends that they see fit; such is an IMPOSITION upon them. Clint KB5ZHT -- -- A quote from Paul Cook, a typical "understanding and tolerant" liberal... "People like you really have no place in a civilized society although that same society does try to accommodate you. You're basically an idiot who takes advantage of what a society has to offer each and every single day yet you refuse to acknowledge its cost or its benefits to you. " Facts are to socialists what crosses are to vampires -- "Brian" wrote in message m... Clint, not only can Dave be the smuggest of PCTAs on r.r.a.p., but he has a certain penchant for obtuseness. He is a master of not understanding whatever it is that isn't going his way. Brian "Clint" rattlehead@computronDOTnet wrote in message ... actually, it was my tale and he correctly read between the lines; he knew EXACTLY what I was meaning to say. Clint KB5ZHT Not so, Farnsworth. There is nothing about a PCTA in the tale anywhere. You continue to do your reading between the lines. Dave K8MN |
What a complete and total jerk you are. If you had even one shred of decency, or you had family members that had died at the hands of the Nazis (as I have) -- you would *never* use the term in the above context. Arnie - KT4ST I had two uncles fight in that war, for one thing, and for another, I did not know you had a monopoly on morality. Forgot you were coronated to that position, I guess. Clint KB5ZHT |
Do you need any more help on etymology? LHA I think that person, in an attempt to try to take the moral high ground, appointed himself the monopoly on morality and sympathy. Clint KB5ZHT |
And I think YOU are FRENCH!!! Are you French, Clint? LOL! that's a good one. It is fascinating to read your repulsive posts about equating Pro-coder with Nazi's. Just fascinating. However, you have convinced me of one thing.I think you are perhaps the epitome of the No-coder, the brave new ham that takes the ARS into the 21st century. well, i'll play your little game. Are you saying that, if that IS so, than they don't meet YOUR qualifications even if they DO meet the FCC's qualifications, and therefore are invalid? I guess it's going to be a shock for the millions of hams worldwide to find out that the Final and Last Word falls to Mike, KB3EIA. And you insinuate that I am judgemental. Clint KB5ZHT |
Hey, look your family members certainly have my
sympathy for what happened, but do not try to use that moral high ground to change and divert the course HERE. I guess freedom of speech, if and only if it doesn't offend? If you really got that offended by what I said, and this is the last time I will speak to you on this matter (period), then block my messages from being downloaded on your computer, or do not read them; however, you should not try to censor anybody. Clint KB5ZHT |
"Clint" wrote ...
Hey, look your family members certainly have my sympathy for what happened, but do not try to use that moral high ground to change and divert the course HERE. I guess freedom of speech, if and only if it doesn't offend? If you really got that offended by what I said, and this is the last time I will speak to you on this matter (period), then block my messages from being downloaded on your computer, or do not read them; however, you should not try to censor anybody. __________________________________________________ ______________ I am not trying to censor you, Clint. I am just highly offended by the use of the word out of context. It is not a matter of freedom of speech, it is a matter of decency. You could have easily chosen to use another word to characterize the pro-code side of this debate and still made your point. That's all I'm saying. Arnie - KT4ST |
I am not trying to censor you, Clint. I am just highly offended by the use of the word out of context. but always remember, that is *your* opinion. I happen to think the analogy is quite accurate. Clint KB5ZHT |
"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message ... (4) The public at large (ham radio operators) should NOT be BURDENED with having to make choices; they should not have the freedom to choose how to use thier skills to the ends that they see fit; such is an IMPOSITION upon them. By eliminating the testing requirement for Morse code, we are seriously undermining people's freedom of choice. Choices need to be based on sufficient knowledge of the subject. Morse code is one of those areas where a person needs to learn the basics and experience it before they have sufficient knowledge. Keeping the test means that individuals will have a better knowledge base upon which to choose whether or not to pursue Morse code to proficient level. No one is required to use Morse code after learning it. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
"Arnie Macy" wrote in message ... "Clint" wrote ... Hey, look your family members certainly have my sympathy for what happened, but do not try to use that moral high ground to change and divert the course HERE. I guess freedom of speech, if and only if it doesn't offend? If you really got that offended by what I said, and this is the last time I will speak to you on this matter (period), then block my messages from being downloaded on your computer, or do not read them; however, you should not try to censor anybody. __________________________________________________ ______________ I am not trying to censor you, Clint. I am just highly offended by the use of the word out of context. It is not a matter of freedom of speech, it is a matter of decency. You could have easily chosen to use another word to characterize the pro-code side of this debate and still made your point. That's all I'm saying. Arnie - KT4ST Arnie, Unfortunately we have too many people in this country who think freedom of speech takes precedence over common decency. They don't realize or don't care that by being inconsiderate in their choice of words or analogies that people will discount what they say. It is more important to them to do it their way rather than in a way that will get the audience on their side. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message ... I am not trying to censor you, Clint. I am just highly offended by the use of the word out of context. but always remember, that is *your* opinion. I happen to think the analogy is quite accurate. Clint KB5ZHT Visit a Holocaust museum and watch the documentaries on the History channel for a while and read the transcripts of the Nuremberg trials. See if you think the analogy is accurate then. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
Dee D. Flint wrote:
"Arnie Macy" wrote in message ... "Clint" wrote ... Hey, look your family members certainly have my sympathy for what happened, but do not try to use that moral high ground to change and divert the course HERE. I guess freedom of speech, if and only if it doesn't offend? If you really got that offended by what I said, and this is the last time I will speak to you on this matter (period), then block my messages from being downloaded on your computer, or do not read them; however, you should not try to censor anybody. ________________________________________________ ________________ I am not trying to censor you, Clint. I am just highly offended by the use of the word out of context. It is not a matter of freedom of speech, it is a matter of decency. You could have easily chosen to use another word to characterize the pro-code side of this debate and still made your point. That's all I'm saying. Arnie - KT4ST Arnie, Unfortunately we have too many people in this country who think freedom of speech takes precedence over common decency. They don't realize or don't care that by being inconsiderate in their choice of words or analogies that people will discount what they say. It is more important to them to do it their way rather than in a way that will get the audience on their side. What these free speech hypocrites don't seem to get, is that it works both ways. While they insist on calling us Nazi's, they consider our objections and replies to their repulsive comments to be denying them their free speech. It is not. That is an example of free speech in action. Everyone has their say. Just as they can call us Nazi's, we can object. - Mike KB3EIA - |
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
I liken it to people who watch the televised arguments on Fox news and others. A half hour of angry people yelling at each other. Eventually some people think this is the way to conduct all discourse. When in fact it is just exhhibiting dhildish, boorish, behavior that just proves that something went amiss when they were being brought up. - Mike KB3EIA - Mike, you should have this "discourse" with DICK, Larry, Steve, Bruce, Kelly, and Dan. We'll understand and acknowledge that learning has taken place when we see a change in their behavior. Thank you in advance for your cooperation. Brian |
"Dick Carroll;" wrote in message ...
That's about the extent of the mental capacity of the no-coder, Mike. They have too little vision to be able to see value in radiotelegraphy, so all they can see is that anyone who has that capacity must be on the far opposite end of the scale. One must ponder their IQ. For the most part it's down with the whale offal. Dick, have you not heard one word we've said to you over the past decade? If you want to use code, FINE! If you want to build code into your personal Emergency Operations Plan, FINE! If you want to create an organization, call it FISTS, and dedicate it to the use of Morse Code, FINE! If you want to participate (or not) in CW Contests, FINE! If you want to risk your life trying to cobble together a CW transmitter during an emergency, FINE! But the days of requiring otherwise qualified people to have to learn your favorite mode just to participate in HF are over. Get used to it. Adjust. Adapt. Overcome. Your approach to getting other people to learn your favorite mode has to change, because you can't say, "Just learn it because I had to." That just doesn't wash anymore. People don't accept "Just because," anymore. You've got work to do, and it isn't getting done by being crappy to people who don't share your views. You think vinegar is going to attract new Morse enthusiasts? It isn't. You think wasting your time arguing with people like me is going to convert us? It isn't. I think code is just one of many modes authorized by the FCC. I haven't used SSTV, so why aren't you complaining about that? Get on with it, and quit complaining to me about it. 73, Brian |
In article ilgate.org, "Hans
K0HB" writes: "N2EY" wrote Then answer this question: Why should people who are not interested in building or fixing their radios have to learn all that theory stuff for the written tests? Why are all hams tested on all sorts of stuff they are not interested in? Because the terms of their license make them responsible for the quality of their radiated signal(s). Maybe. But a ham is not required to actually know how his/her equipment works, nor to be able to work on it. Just for the result. I'm not required to know how my cars work, just how to use them safely. I am "responsible", however, to see that they meet all applicable DMV requirements, including pollution and safety equipment. I can do the work myself or have it done by others. The same is true for ham equipment. The FCC thinks that Technicians are adequately tested on that, for all authorized modes and technologies. There are no modes or technologies authorized for amateur HF/MF that are not also authorized for amateur VHF/UHF. So there is no absolute need for any of the General or Extra written tests *except* perhaps a few regulatory and propagation questions. Without demonstrating some familiarity with the basic underlying science, it would be irresponsible of the regulators to allow an applicant to establish a radio transmitting station on the public airways. See above about Technicians. And here's another point: There's almost nothing in the tests about some technologies that hams are allowed to use. For example, vacuum tubes - not very much in the tests about them! Yet FCC *trusts* hams who want to use vacuum tube technology to learn what they need to know about it and operate their equipment responsibly. So why all the tests? Familiarize yourself with the concept "tragedy of the commons". You got a handy reference? 73 de Jim, N2EY |
"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message .com... "Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message ... (4) The public at large (ham radio operators) should NOT be BURDENED with having to make choices; they should not have the freedom to choose how to use thier skills to the ends that they see fit; such is an IMPOSITION upon them. By eliminating the testing requirement for Morse code, we are seriously undermining people's freedom of choice. Oh, that is such dreadful stretch it literally IS laughable. Be reducing or eliminating a requirement we are LIMITING freedom? just what backwards, reverse logic came up with THAT? or, if this is it.... Keeping the test means that individuals will have a better knowledge base upon which to choose whether or not to pursue Morse code to proficient level. THAT is where the very basic logic that the PCTA crowd has is incorrect! You are refusing to diffuse the two subjects of "testing" and "use on the bands". Morse code, as well as ssb, fm, fax, and every other mode of operation exists totaly independant of testing for it... for the very simple reason that the testing process is NOT the one and only available means for learning about it. Reference books, history, word of mouth, the internet, and every other method available for exchanging ideas in society will continuously make it and every other legal form of communication readily available to anybody who has, AND THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART, an basic natural desire to do so. If this desire doesn't exist, over a thousand years of human history tells us that FORCEING people to do something they do not want to do naturally compels them to resist it. I honestly believe this is one of the basic reasons you DO see such a resentment for the code today. Free of exterior pressures, allowing a free society to evolve naturally and pursue it's natural course, just like in economics and politics, is the best policy you can use. Let me give you another example; 8-track tapes. They were available before cassettes and compact disks were. It is illogical to make a law REQUIREING people to learn about 8-track tapes, "just so they can have the knowledge base necissary to make an informed decision". This comes naturally; 8-track tapes need not and SHOULD not have been subsidized by the federal government in any way. The free market chose what they did for such a multitude of reasons, each on of which are necessary to enumerate here but the ultimate reason is the same. Seriously; what logic would there be if you went to hastings, or discount music, walmart, or whatever retailer you can name and wanted to buy a compact disk, and the salesman there said "i'm sorry sir, first you are going to have to present your license proving that you have been schooled in the history and use of 8-track tapes." Clint KB5ZHT |
Talking heads... I think CNN first made this popular.
It was the darndest thing I ever saw; well-groomed adults sitting there in each of thier little windows, and once the "ringmaster" fielded the question, all nuiances of a mature environment went right out the window and the high-dollar, well paid, pampered "experts" just started screaming at each other. You were lucky to understand any real comments, whether or not you agreed with what was being said sometimes couldn't even come up to your attention. It would end with the "ringmaster" saying "well, I thank you all for joining us, always a pleasure to have you." and I thought to myself, "boy, THIS will never catch on. THAT was insanity!" oh, but just look at what has happened. Clint KB5ZHT |
"if you want......
"if you want.... "if you want.... .....then all that is FINE, but..." isn't even getting through to those people. They're not hearing it. read back a few threads and you'll see one of them actually tell me that "removing the testing requirement limits people's choices". I'll just let that one sink in with you and please accept my remark as being accurate, you can go back and read it. They will not seperate the two issues of "testing" and "use". It's "you WILL learn it!" (followed by the unspoken but agreed upon reasoning, "because I had to"). I think the basic problem is that they have a few preconceived notions that are wrong. They seem to feel that people will enjoy doing something if forced to do it, if they otherwise wouldn't, which human psychology doesn't support this at ALL, nor does the history of economics. They feel that somehow, if not required to be tested on it, people will forget about it and not want to do it. I never took a profeciency test for ssb, fm or AM and I enjoy using those modes, managed to look up reference material on them and learn about them without having to have a test to make me do so, and furthermore, what I did have to know was covered on a knowledge test. Hey, there's an idea. How about just incorporating CW into the knowledge test as part of the database? asking what random characters are? what the definition of the farnsworth rate is, and how a code key works? What does "full break in" ability mean on linear amplifiers? Oh, no, this will never do. even though the reasons given were that a person needs to learn about it in order to make informed decisions, and this would have him learn about it, it comes back down to the old tried and true SPEED OF RECEPTION test; I had to do it. Read: We were once subjects of the british king So should you. Read: YOU, therefore, are a subject of the king. Shut up and do it. Read: Shut up with your ideas of revolution. Do what the redcoats TELL you to do. Oops, i'm sorry, now did I offend somebody to referring to the redcoats, the way I did previously with the brownshirts? Lord knows in today's society we need to avoid everything that offends anybody. but I digress. Clint |
Arnie, Unfortunately we have too many people in this country who think freedom of speech takes precedence over common decency. They don't realize or don't care that by being inconsiderate in their choice of words or analogies that people will discount what they say. It is more important to them to do it their way rather than in a way that will get the audience on their side. I happen to also know what a society would devolve down to if you omitted EVERYTHING and ANYTHING that offended some person, somewhere. If you first cleansed all your speech, writings, thoughts, and every other form of expressing yourself simply because one person somewhere would get mad about it, what do you have left? Oh, that's right. A socialist utopia. That's not "my" america. "just shut up and buy 8-track tapes when the redcoats point thier muskets at you and TELL you to." Clint KB5ZHT |
"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message ... Arnie, Unfortunately we have too many people in this country who think freedom of speech takes precedence over common decency. They don't realize or don't care that by being inconsiderate in their choice of words or analogies that people will discount what they say. It is more important to them to do it their way rather than in a way that will get the audience on their side. I happen to also know what a society would devolve down to if you omitted EVERYTHING and ANYTHING that offended some person, somewhere. If you first cleansed all your speech, writings, thoughts, and every other form of expressing yourself simply because one person somewhere would get mad about it, what do you have left? Oh, that's right. A socialist utopia. That's not "my" america. "just shut up and buy 8-track tapes when the redcoats point thier muskets at you and TELL you to." Clint KB5ZHT As you obviously don't know, the message gets through a lot better when you speak in terms appropriate to the audience. Any public speaker knows this or if he doesn't, he learns it quite quickly. If you don't present your ideas using terms that the audience understands and likes, they will tune you out. Your message is wasted. and so is your time if you've just got to "let it all hang out." Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
Hey, wanna talk SHUDDER?
this is what makes ME shudder... the thought that you are invoking the priviledges of free speech and rights of society just like I am, but also advocating that an idea, concept or practice be forced upon a person against thier will. And you're doing that with a straight face. Clint KB5ZHT |
Those folk can't be bothered to learn facts Dee, their minds are cast in stone. No amount of rational persuasion is competent to educate or enlighten them. Meanwhile they rant about the backward state of code supporters, of whom far more are involved and knowledgable on late digital modes than any serious number of them! Such ignorance would be amazing, even laughable, if it didn't portend the future. Name the first fact that I am refusing to learn. I am more than willing to learn about the history of morse code, and it's use, and it's applications (no matter how dwindling and disappearing today); I have no problem with other people doing the same, if they SO CHOOSE. I have a problem with people like yourself claiming how nice freedom is and then saying "but you should learn THIS regardless of whether or not you want to!" "shut up and buy the 8-track tapes when the redcoats TELL you to. we don't care if you listen to it later or not, but you WILL do what you're told and buy it." Clint KB5ZHT |
As you obviously don't know, the message gets through a lot better when you speak in terms appropriate to the audience. Any public speaker knows this or if he doesn't, he learns it quite quickly. If you don't present your ideas using terms that the audience understands and likes, they will tune you out. Your message is wasted. and so is your time if you've just got to "let it all hang out." Dee D. Flint, N8UZE all true, accepted as submitted. However, if the premise of your argument is that my approach offended everybody so it reached no one, you are incorrect. In fact, i'll hazard a guess that it offended 1, mabye 2 people; the remainder that have jumped onto the bandwagon with this person were disingenuously doing so, only doing so since it helped thier private little war and pet cause... I will also hazard the guess, and free of much apprehension in doing so, that the vast majority of people that read it (who I WAS likewise posting to, for reading) didn't drop to the ground in gut-wrenching revulsion to the point that the point was lost. I don't think it was lost on anywhere NEAR the people you would have me believe. On the contrary, what I DID in fact do was help to remove some of the window dressing of your (read: PCTA crowd) arguments, strip away the pretty, "happy fuzzy bunny" covers that are often used to hide the REAL core of the argument. And, as you've read in this thread as well as newsgroups, others have recieved it wide and clear- albeit, to YOUR chagrin, but so be it, such is the way of socratic dialogue... and that is this- "I had to do it, so should you." Furthermore, there is the DISTINCT possiblity that the following is true, but i'm not pushing this point as it is moot and would achieve nothing- the unspoken total truth may lie somewhere in, "I had to do it, those of my peerage and common interests likewise didn't have enough spine and nerve to speak our minds on the issue, so we feel that by doing so yourselves you are QUITE insensitive to the interest of protecting our feelings and reputations, so we kindly request you to lay down the banners of your cause, surrender, and just do what you are told as well. We don't want anybody offended." Quite a thing to be proud of, indeed. Just let us who are willing to carry the banner and lead the charge do so; just sit back and relax; the willing and able bodied among us will take care of everything. Clint KB5ZHT |
In article , "Dee D. Flint"
writes: Arnie, Unfortunately we have too many people in this country who think freedom of speech takes precedence over common decency. They don't realize or don't care that by being inconsiderate in their choice of words or analogies that people will discount what they say. It is more important to them to do it their way rather than in a way that will get the audience on their side. That sounds like the PCTA stance on retention of the code test. EVERYONE HAS TO DO IT LIKE THEY DID IT. Because... LHA |
In article , "Dee D. Flint"
writes: "Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message ... (4) The public at large (ham radio operators) should NOT be BURDENED with having to make choices; they should not have the freedom to choose how to use thier skills to the ends that they see fit; such is an IMPOSITION upon them. By eliminating the testing requirement for Morse code, we are seriously undermining people's freedom of choice. Incredible illogic!!! Choices need to be based on sufficient knowledge of the subject. The FCC determines what is necessary to pass THEIR requirements for an amateur radio operator license. Morse code is one of those areas where a person needs to learn the basics and experience it before they have sufficient knowledge. Tested morse code proficiency was required by the GOVERNMENT in the early days of radio for the first US radio regulatory agency. Back then, on-off keying codes were the ONLY way to communicate using early primitive radio. The GOVERNMENT's main reason for the code test was so that all radio operators in all radio services could be contacted in order to mitigate radio interference. This is the year 2003, not 1912, not 1896, and not 1844 (the first year of commercial code use on the Morse-Vail telegraph system). The FCC stated publicly 13 years ago that the morse code test was NOT a real requirement to determine if an amateur should be licensed. The FCC stated that the only reason for retaining the code test in 1990 was due to ITU-R S25.5. Most of ITU-R S25 has been rewritten at WRC-03 and there is NO international requirement for all administrations to administer any code test. The new wording of S25.5 allows each administration to evaluate the code test retention within that nation. Keeping the test means that individuals will have a better knowledge base upon which to choose whether or not to pursue Morse code to proficient level. Illogical reasoning. Licensing of radio amateurs in the USA is regulated by the FCC. It is not regulated by any "ARS community." It is not regulated by any amateur radio membership organization. There is absolutely NO radio theory imparted by skill at morse code and it does not serve any purpose in the FCC's determination of whether or not an amateur radio license applicant should be granted a license. No one is required to use Morse code after learning it. Then there is NO reason to subject all amateur radio license applicants to any morse code test, is there? LHA |
In article , "Arnie Macy"
writes: "Len Over 21" wrote in part ... Kiddo, I'm a few years older than YOU, but don't have any "ancestors" who were in concentration camps. Instead, I've talked DIRECTLY to those who were there, even a couple of ex-soldiers who helped liberate one camp. Lots of those centers for Holocaust remembrance here in Los Angeles. Cut out this totally artificial-to-the-subject "ancestral insult" crap. The word "nazi" (all lower case) has come to mean what Clint said in the American language of TODAY. _________________________________________________ ___________________ I've also talked to them *directly*, Len. And to a person, they do not accept the "modern" definition of the word -- and why should they? If you had relatives that lived through it (and some that didn't) I strongly suspect that you would feel differently. My first wife was Reform Jew. All her older relatives made it out of Germany via Denmark. I've talked with them at length at the time and also with many others in the same situation. In the Fairfax area of western Los Angeles. She died in late 1964, a cancer victim. Are you now going to "lecture" me on the Holocaust of WW2? Are you now going to assume some kind of superior moral attitude about "ancestry" because you have such weak arguments on the retention of morse code testing in an avocational hobby activity involving radio? May your conscience be forever burdened by the souls of seven million who died when you profess some kind of outrage in an argument over code testing. That is a pathetically weak, petty connection you make. There are several Centers for the Holocaust around the USA. I would suggest you visit one and spend some time there and reflect on the reality of that dreadful, terrible happening over half a century ago. Yarmulke is optional during a visit. Carrying a code key during such a visit isn't required. P U T Z ! LHA |
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In article , "Arnie Macy"
writes: I am not trying to censor you, Clint. I am just highly offended by the use of the word out of context. It is not a matter of freedom of speech, it is a matter of decency. You could have easily chosen to use another word to characterize the pro-code side of this debate and still made your point. That's all I'm saying. I am highly offended that you are so damn weak in your arguments for morse code testing that you invoke some artificial outrage and equate the code test arguments to the WW2 HOLOCAUST. May the millions of souls who perished in all those camps weigh heavily on your conscience for trying to USE that terrible happening for your own petty little arguments over morse code testing. LHA |
It wasn't?!?!? Ohmygosh, and it is published by the ARRL !!! Maybe "CW" doesn't get through as good as all the PCTA say it do! :-) I, too, am likewise shocked. From what i've learned, when all of society collapses, we retreat back into clans and have to forage for food and struggle for basic survival, it will be the great morse code gods that will light the torch and the way back to civilization. What I don't understand is how civilization has managed to stay together through the tribulation without widespread knowledge and use of morse code, made possible only of course by morse code training. Clint KB5ZHT |
Tested morse code proficiency was required by the GOVERNMENT in the early days of radio for the first US radio regulatory agency. Back then, on-off keying codes were the ONLY way to communicate using early primitive radio. The GOVERNMENT's main reason for the code test was so that all radio operators in all radio services could be contacted in order to mitigate radio interference. This is the year 2003, not 1912, not 1896, and not 1844 (the first year of commercial code use on the Morse-Vail telegraph system). The FCC stated publicly 13 years ago that the morse code test was NOT a real requirement to determine if an amateur should be licensed. The FCC stated that the only reason for retaining the code test in 1990 was due to ITU-R S25.5. Len, how DARE you point out the fact that times change and that the needs of a public utility and hobby are to change to meet those needs. I think it lacks understanding and sensitivity to the feelings of the PCTA gestapo on your part to prove that with the passing of years, requirements to meed modern demands likewise change. I am flabbergasted; i'm taken aback. I just am overcome with such frustration that I do not know what to say. Clint KB5ZHT |
But, to answer your question: did you do something illegal? Of course not. Insensitive, foolish and intellectually bankrupt, perhaps - none of which are punishable offences. AH... nice dodge.... as you see, the very point of bringing up the fact that "freedom of speech is frequently curtailed today, such as the following examples..." would ONLY be brought up to imply that what I did was NOT protected by the concept of freedom of speech. I put it to you; if this is NOT the case, if there is NO insinuation of same, then WHY bring up the fact that there are certain extreme cases where free speech is limited or halted, when I claim the right to do so? Just for the purpose of conversation? I think such a claim is paper thin and WEAK at best. I suspect that the Nazi (not the euphemistic full 'National Socialist' name that you now use in this post) reference the two are the same; but I digress, I am not sure what point you are making by trying to distinguish the two was used because it was the only card left to play in an otherwise empty hand. and at THAT point you are no longer discussing fact and are in fact using opinion. The truth of the matter is that the PCTA crowd is long out of factual support and credible reasoning to keep the morse code testing; they abandon any further hopes now with all sorts of dodging tactics- and if, by the way, you find resentment to the use of nazi, I likewise, would find resentment with the discriptions "too lazy", "dumb", "stupid", and "moron". HOWEVER, instead of dropping to the ground and kicking my feet and clenching my fist and screaming as a child does when it's bottle is taken away, I am continueing the debate. Due to the atrocities committed during WW II, the word "Nazi" has severely negative connotations for a large percentage of the world's population, okay, you get the "DUH" award of the day for that one. KEEN grasp of the obvious. reaching beyond the Hogan's Heroes-esque usage that you recognize and reminding them of the horrors of that regime, for many in a very personal way. believe me, I was not reaching for a humorous or laughable reference. My use of a "will not accept change" analogy was intended at the latter reality of the regime, not the former comedy that you referred to. however, it was your right to enter the conversation, even if you had nothing new factual to add, and you may continue doing so. Care to point out the color of the grass and the sky now? /reductio ad absurdum Clint KB5ZHT |
I am highly offended that you are so damn weak in your arguments for morse code testing that you invoke some artificial outrage and equate the code test arguments to the WW2 HOLOCAUST. May the millions of souls who perished in all those camps weigh heavily on your conscience for trying to USE that terrible happening for your own petty little arguments over morse code testing. LHA I share the outrage. I'm am seething with contempt. Um, what total "jerks" they are. How insensitive. Oh, by the way, i'm going to hypocritically overlook the fact that I called THEM jerks, but when they use a referencing adjective on me, i'm going to claim they have an empty hand on thier side of the argument so that's the last card THEY have to play. But it's okay for ME to do it. And since I had to do it, so should YOU! Oh, wait, that's conflicting with my previous remark.. oh, i'm so confused..... I want to say one thing when it supports my argument on the one hand, but I want to ignore and refute it when it doesn't on the next..... Perhaps I need to go get a dictionary and look up this "logic" thing and learn about it. Clint KB5ZHT |
"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message ...
I think that may be a prevailing sentiment and character trait of that crowd, actually. After talking to them enough, you FINALLY get out of them, as I have, the truth (but I suspected it all along). It's is tantamount to an authoritarian's way of running a government. Free market forces aren't to dictate policy or courses of action, but the pointing of fingers and swinging of riding crops IS. If you read the various responses that a few of the PCTA types have made to all of our comments, it all boils down to the following doctrine... (1) I had to do it, so should YOU. Prevasive. (2) It shouldn't be up to a free citizen to operate as he sees fit; he should do what he's told, for the better good of the existence of the archaic mode in question (CW) How high? (3) Shut up, your opinion in the operation of the government (read: FCC) doesn't matter, and you should not have the the right to have any influence on how it governs you; you're the subject of the empire. Daily. (4) The public at large (ham radio operators) should NOT be BURDENED with having to make choices; they should not have the freedom to choose how to use thier skills to the ends that they see fit; such is an IMPOSITION upon them. Belief in mandatory code use. |
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