Dick Carroll wrote in
:

Robert Casey wrote:

Dick Carroll wrote:



You view the situation as an EE who didn't need to study to work out
any of the technical problems on the Extra exam, few that there were.
Most applicants have the singleminded goal of passing the exam, and
learning beyond that goal is not only unnecessary, it gets in the way
of the goal at hand. So they naturally just don't do it. The curent
method of testing clearly facilitates that position.


I'm a EE, and like any reasonably successful college student, I still
made use of the
avaliable resources (the question pool) to prepare for the (at the
time I took them)
elements 4A and 4B. Found a few holes in my knowledge, and filled
them in for
at least long enough to score well on the tests (missed 1 on 4A, 2 on
4B IIRC).
Got the CSCEs, and then the extra on Restructuring Day.
Most students only study what is expected to be on the exams. Thus, I
could solve calculus exam problems (take the intergral of (csc
x^5)/(tan x^2 -1) dx)
but I still never got a good understanding of how to use calculus to
solve a real
world problem. Recently went looking for a "calculus for dummies"
type book, but all they had was how to do exam problems. Been there,
done that.



And obviously it wasn't a problemm and hasn't caused any problem, for
you and others similarly situated, nor for the ARS.

But.....how about all the Extras out there who have
successfully proceeded through the same system and emerged
with so little knowledge that they have no idea of even
how to design and build a simple *1/2* wave dipole?
With little or nothing beyond the question pools in their
libraries, many won't even know how or where to look it up.
And when(if) the day comes that won't be required to copy
ANY Morse code,one of the most used modes in ham radio,
at the most basic speed?


Which will affect their comprehension of dipoles neither one way or the
other.

Your linking of CW ability to comprehension of radio theory would be
frightening if it wasn't hilarious!

Understand that I'm not saying they shouldn't be hams, nor
that they shouldn't be allowed some HF access. We all start
somewhere.
But to allow them licensing into the top echelon of amateurs
is ludicrous and negates all that ham radio is supposed to stand for.

In short, it reduces the ARS to CB status.



Your thinking is so completely addled that I hardly know what to say in
reply.

Dick Carroll wrote in
:

Alun Palmer wrote:

Dick Carroll wrote in
:


Robert Casey wrote:


Dick Carroll wrote:



You view the situation as an EE who didn't need to study to work out
any of the technical problems on the Extra exam, few that there were.
Most applicants have the singleminded goal of passing the exam, and
learning beyond that goal is not only unnecessary, it gets in the way
of the goal at hand. So they naturally just don't do it. The curent
method of testing clearly facilitates that position.


I'm a EE, and like any reasonably successful college student, I still
made use of the
avaliable resources (the question pool) to prepare for the (at the
time I took them)
elements 4A and 4B. Found a few holes in my knowledge, and filled
them in for
at least long enough to score well on the tests (missed 1 on 4A, 2 on
4B IIRC).
Got the CSCEs, and then the extra on Restructuring Day.
Most students only study what is expected to be on the exams. Thus, I
could solve calculus exam problems (take the intergral of (csc
x^5)/(tan x^2 -1) dx)
but I still never got a good understanding of how to use calculus to
solve a real
world problem. Recently went looking for a "calculus for dummies"
type book, but all they had was how to do exam problems. Been there,
done that.



And obviously it wasn't a problemm and hasn't caused any problem, for
you and others similarly situated, nor for the ARS.

But.....how about all the Extras out there who have
successfully proceeded through the same system and emerged
with so little knowledge that they have no idea of even
how to design and build a simple *1/2* wave dipole?
With little or nothing beyond the question pools in their
libraries, many won't even know how or where to look it up.
And when(if) the day comes that won't be required to copy
ANY Morse code,one of the most used modes in ham radio, at the most
basic speed?



Which will affect their comprehension of dipoles neither one way or the
other.

Your linking of CW ability to comprehension of radio theory would be
frightening if it wasn't hilarious!


Understand that I'm not saying they shouldn't be hams, nor
that they shouldn't be allowed some HF access. We all start somewhere.
But to allow them licensing into the top echelon of amateurs
is ludicrous and negates all that ham radio is supposed to stand for.

In short, it reduces the ARS to CB status.




Your thinking is so completely addled that I hardly know what to say in
reply.


To quote a famous person, "There you go again!"

The minute I mention MOrse code, suddenly I'm all addled. Right.


Only when you try to link passing a Morse code test with ability to
understand theory

In article , "Dee D. Flint"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
. com...
Back before restructuring, the ham who wasn't interested in
phone/image had no reason to get an Advanced. And the ham who wasn't
interested in CW/data had relatively little reason to get an Extra.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Except that I found very early on that a lot of the more interesting DX
tended to be in what are the Extra subbands in the US. So I set my sights
on getting the Extra for that reason.

Of course! Those parts could also be very productive in contests because of the
reduced crowding,

My point was simply that the Advanced did not give any more CW/data privileges
- the incentive was all 'phone.

Some folks make a big deal about how "tough", "theoretical" and "mathematical"
the old Advanced written was. Supposedly tougher than the Extra, yada yada
yada.

But back in 1968, when I was at the FCC office for the General, the examiner
said "why not try the Advanced while you're here?" (Could not do Extra because
back then it had a 2 year experience requirement).

So I took it and passed easily even though I had not studied for it at all. I
was 14 and it was the summer between 8th and 9th grades. Not a big deal even
then because I knew of 12 year old Extras back then.

73 de Jim, N2EY

After I became an Extra, there was a time when I felt a little odd
about it. I knew all the test questions, and a lot more, but my
operation skills were really not that good. I also saw some Extras
both before and after I got my ticket who were really really green,
and needed tutoring in some real basics. I mean real operational
basics. The half wave/quarter wave dipole thing is no joke, even if we
make fun of it. The top level should be just that. As many people find
out after they leave college, there is more to life than just taking
tests.

Don't you know it! When I graduated college with a BSEE, I was pretty
much your standard
issue geek/nerd, short on the social skills and ability to handle office
politics. Which doesn't come
up in college at all. But after years of working experience and some
help from various
good friends/mentors, you eventually learn it. In college, if it
doesn't show up on an exam, you
need not learn it to eventually graduate. I have heard that that is not
true for PHD levels,
where social/political skills are vital. Similar skills needed to get
good reviews/ avoid layoffs
from managers in industry. I've been told that I'm less nerdy and
better at the office
politics nowadays. ;-) Not that I'm likely to turn to the dark side
and become a manager

:-)

Alun Palmer wrote:

Only when you try to link passing a Morse code test with ability to
understand theory


I suppose the ability to read and write would be required to copy code,
but aside
from that, a chimp might be able to do it. But I doubt that a chimp
would understand
how to build a dipole, or even know why he'd want to....

Of course some CBers might be described as chimps.... ;-)

Perhaps we should have a two class system, with only Generals and Extras?



Dang....a two tier license structure not mandated by the government? Heaven
forbid...hi.



There should be some sort of beginner's license that an average 14 year
old honor roll student
can get. Just like the cigarette companies, get them while they're young.
;-)

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

In the past (the Pre-Restructuring Era), the reason for upgrading was that
increased operating privileges were the reward for gaining increased
technical knowledge and operating skill. The ARS seems to have taken
a clue from the rest of our dumbed-down society and abandoned this
philosophy.

And what I'm thinking is that unless it means something again, they
might as well get rid of it. That little sliver of operating frequencies
is not worth it, if increased privileges are the measuring stick.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike:

True, if you're talking about the difference between Advanced and Extra
under the Pre-Restructuring system. In that system, the motivation to
upgrade to Extra was to gain the International DX "windows" on phone
and CW, plus the benefit of the 1x2 and 2x1 callsigns, and the "status" that
went with being an Amateur Extra. I considered that to be well worth
the effort required to pass Elements 1(c) and 2(e). However, "status"
among hams is now Politically Incorrect, so we must now endure the
"socialized" licensing system we now have in the ARS. Personally, I
didn't have too many problems with the No-code Tech concept, except
for the fact that even though it literally gave away 97% of all amateur
operating privileges, it only led to greater expectations of even more
dumbing-down.

73 de Larry, K3LT

In article , "Dan/W4NTI"
w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com writes:

Mike:

In the past (the Pre-Restructuring Era), the reason for upgrading was that
increased operating privileges were the reward for gaining increased
technical knowledge and operating skill. The ARS seems to have taken
a clue from the rest of our dumbed-down society and abandoned this
philosophy.

73 de Larry, K3LT


I've never thought of it that way Larry, but your 100% correct. Just look
at Kim.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan:

YOU look at her. I just had dinner.

73 de Larry, K3LT

In article , "Dan/W4NTI"
w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com writes:

Of course, there's always the remote possibility that the FCC will
take the easiest course of action, which is to make no further changes
to the ARS licensing structure and requirements at all. However,
this would seem to be almost impossible for them to get away with,
in light of the language of the Restructuring R&O. One can always
hope, but I'm 99% sure we'll see code testing go away. Of course,
when it does, Carl and the NCI will then be in the "hot seat" -- since
we'll now be able to sit back and wait for the technical/digital
revolution they've promised all along. Personally, I hope they're right,
but I don't have that kind of luck.

73 de Larry, K3LT

Forget it Larry. It ain't gonna happen. The puter folks may get into ham
radio for the UHF / SHF linking aspects. Just to increase range. But that
will be it.

HF has no interest to them. Nor does conventional voice stuff. And, of
course, forget CW.

Basically what it amounts to, AND ALWAYS HAS. It takes a certain breed to
be a real radio ham. And we are going away fast.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan:

Yeah, I'm afraid it's true. The irony is that some of the most technically-
inclined YOUNG hams I've known have been those who were eager and
willing to respond to the code learning/testing challenge. It just may have
been the one thing that would have motivated more young people to
become hams.

73 de Larry, K3LT

N2EY wrote:

But back in 1968, when I was at the FCC office for the General, the examiner
said "why not try the Advanced while you're here?" (Could not do Extra because
back then it had a 2 year experience requirement).

Question 1:


Were you discriminated against by such a rule? Since you lived through
such a thing, your input would be worthwhile.


So I took it and passed easily even though I had not studied for it at all. I
was 14 and it was the summer between 8th and 9th grades. Not a big deal even
then because I knew of 12 year old Extras back then.

I do believe there is a "toughness effect" that is related to how much
trouble a person may have had at the time. They remember that it was
fairly hard for them then, so it remained difficult, even though the
person learned much more over the years. And since they know a lot now,
the old test must have been tough.

Kind of like when I went back to my old elementary school a year or so
ago. I remembered how big the place was, and how big a deal it was to
walk from one end of the school to the other. If I hadn't gone back and
seen just how small the place was, my perception would have been forever
skewed as to it's size and how intimidating it was to a little kid such
as I was.

- Mike KB3EIA -