"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
[snip]

One of the big problems is the "nobody loses/nobody gets a windfall"
paradigm.

The NCI and NCVEC Petitions are "nobody loses/nobody gets a windfall"
propositions ... since a tech now gets HF privs if he/she passes a 5
wpm
code test, the elimination of the test would not be a "windfall" if
all
techs got the same privs as the old "TechPlus" ...

Everything else stays the same.

Yup. And so we wind up with a continuation of the VHF/UHF heavy, HF/MF
light
entry level setup that is an artifact of the old S25.5.

I doubt that ... I expect that a very large percentage of techs will
rapidly
upgrade to at least general, if not extra, once the code test is gone.

Maybe - but look at what has happened with the Tech Plus:

It's been 3-1/2 years since restructuring.

No new Tech Pluses in all that time.

All existing Tech Pluses changed to Techs when renewing or vanity call
granted.

Many Tech Pluses needed no additional testing at all to get a General.

Yet we still have about 50% of pre-restructuring Tech Pluses on the
books.Which
means many of the existing Tech Pluses simply haven't yet bothered to
upgrade
to General.

But by your own figuring, (about) 50% of them HAVE ...

The idea of "eliminate the code test and give techs "techplus" privs is
logical, takes nothing away from anyone, and gives nobody a "freebie."

From the standpoint of written testing, anyway.

It's not a "freebie" in any way ... current Tech+ and "Tech with code
credit" have access to (some) HF ... if the code test is no longer a
requirement for HF access, it's only fair that Techs have access ...
they've passed the same written as (most) Tech+ ... (I would find it
hard to believe that "old Techs" who had credit for both 5 wpm and
the full General written wouldn't have upgraded to AT LEAST
General ... (however if someone didn't care and didn't that's no skin
off my nose ...)

Didja know that some time back QCWA (you're a member, I'm not, even though
I'm
"qualified") asked FCC to grant all pre-Nov.22-1968 Generals and Advanceds
a
free upgrade to Extra? Talk about freebies!

Yes ... I believe that was in their comments in 98-143 and NCI opposed
it, along with the NCVECs ... we both said, "If they want to upgrade, they
should have to take the written element(s) that they need to get there. No
freebies!"

In the case of NCVEC, there may be more petitions and proposals. They
have
already hinted at same.

I'm not part of that group, so I can't speak for them ... if they file a
petition
seeking to water down the writtens or expand the phone bands, I'll oppose
it vigorously (personally).

Same here. But does Fred often take no for an answer? He sure is used to
getting his way.

There is more to the NCVECs than Fred ... I would expect the ARRL rep
to oppose such an action ...

I think these proposals fully meet the "nobody loses/nobody gets a
windfall" paradigm.

Some would say that getting full privileges with no code test was a
windfall, but I'm not gonna go there....

The governments of the world don't seem to hold that view, so you'd be
up against the "heavy hitters."

The governments of the world don't make FCC rules.

The FCC was part of one of those governments of the world that
supported the elimination of the requirement at WRC-03 ...

How would you feel if it was proposed that all Advanceds get an instant
upgrade
to Extra with no additional testing?

I'd oppose it ... there's a point to the additional written test for Extra,
and
without having passed it, you're not qualified. (Before you take another
tack here, there IS no point to Morse testing ... so it doesn't really count
as
a qualification, Element 1 is a vestigial thing that the FCC had to keep in
order to not be in derrogation of the ITU Radio Regs, not because it was
a truly rational, justifiable "qualification" ...)

Main point is that between those two constrainsts, very little change
in
the writtens or basic structure is possible.

And I think the three classes of license are reasonable and appropriate.
Tech becomes the "entry" license, general is "mid-grade," and extra is
"top." I don't see anything wrong with that ...

That's essentially what we have now.

If it a'int broke, don't fix it ... the only thing that's "broke" is that
they
haven't yet eliminated the Morse test now that they're free to do so.

73,
Carl - wk3c

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"

But the FCC couldn't grant that because of the (now gone) ITU requirement
that
one pass a Morse test BEFORE getting on HF ...

Maybe. But look at what the UK did. Does the "Morse appreciation" thing
used
with the Foundation license really constitute a "test"?

73 de Jim, N2EY

It's actually called a "Morse Assessment" ... no speed and a "crib sheet" is
allowed IIRC ... the UK RA took a more liberal interpretation ... there
never
was any speed spec'd in the Radio Regs. The FCC took the CYA approach
and used 5 wpm because that was the CEPT limit and we'd been granting
Novices/Techs (some) HF access with 5 wpm for years with no complaints
from the ITU or the international community.

Carl - wk3c

Must be the folks you hang out with Bruce ... you know the old
saying "Birds of a feather flock together." :-)

Carl - wk3c

Not hardly Karl, these people are the Knuckle Dragging NCI Members I hear.

"WA8ULX" wrote in message
...
Why? Maybe a little time in grade would mean we don't hear a new extra
ask
" how long is a half wave dipole on forty?"

Dan/W4NTI

That would be an improvment Dan, what I hear is, what is a Dipole, and who
sells them, ands of course how much GAIN.

Must be the folks you hang out with Bruce ... you know the old
saying "Birds of a feather flock together." :-)

Carl - wk3c

Mike Coslo wrote in
et:

Alun Palmer wrote:

"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in
:


Man you got that right Mike. It was that way, decades ago. The
extra used to mean something. Now it means squat.

Don't believe me? Look at the before and after code gutting. I was
going to get a fancy 1X2 years ago. Glad I didn't now.

Dan/W4NTI

All the 1x2 sequentially assigned calls were gone long before the
20wpm code was dropped.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


The real observation here is to note a complaint about extra class
hams not knowing
what the length of a 1/2 wave dipole was on a given frequency; has
nothing to do
with sending and recieving morse code skill.

Kinda showed your colors there.

Clint





It was a dead giveaway. Anyone who thinks that 20wpm code operating
skill means you know all about dipoles has a serious problem that no
amount of discussion will ever change.

The new requirements *probably* will have no Morse code
requirements,
ergo Morse is not really relevant to this thread.

That an extra might have no idea about the length of a half wave
dipole
at 40 meters - or more importantly, precisely no idea on how to
calculate it - indicates a more serious problem to me.

- Mike KB3EIA -



But one that has nothing to do with 20wpm, which I didn't introduce into
the discussion

"WA8ULX" wrote in message
...
Must be the folks you hang out with Bruce ... you know the old
saying "Birds of a feather flock together." :-)

Carl - wk3c

Not hardly Karl, these people are the Knuckle Dragging NCI Members I hear.

Ah, the agenda *again*.

doesn't take long from the time you guys set up the trap to springing it
on the cw test issue.

"14,000 died in France? wow. See what happens when you start reducing
morse code requirements?"

Clint

"WA8ULX" wrote in message
...
I'm a general class operator; I realize by definition that means I had to
show knowledge in certain areas to prove I deserved recieving the next

You didnt prove knowledge, all you proved was that you did a GOOD JOB of
Memorizing some Q@As.

Do you guys dream about morse code tests?

Exactly.

That was my point; make a post about back up batteries for
black-out ham radio operations, and you'll get them making
CW test remarks about it.

Make a post about feedline pro's and con's, and they'll
devolve it back to morse code testing.

Talk about what is the best background noise reducing
handheld radio for use on the toilet when you have
diahrrea.. and yep, it's all about morse code testing
again.

No matter what, follow a thread long enough and they'll find
a way to use the most twisted path of logic to blame
NCI and the reduction & removal of morse code testing.

Was it, in fact, to blame for the shuttle disaster?

I digress.

Clint

"Alun Palmer" wrote in message
...
Mike Coslo wrote in
et:

Alun Palmer wrote:

"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in
:


Man you got that right Mike. It was that way, decades ago. The
extra used to mean something. Now it means squat.

Don't believe me? Look at the before and after code gutting. I was
going to get a fancy 1X2 years ago. Glad I didn't now.

Dan/W4NTI

All the 1x2 sequentially assigned calls were gone long before the
20wpm code was dropped.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


The real observation here is to note a complaint about extra class
hams not knowing
what the length of a 1/2 wave dipole was on a given frequency; has
nothing to do
with sending and recieving morse code skill.

Kinda showed your colors there.

Clint





It was a dead giveaway. Anyone who thinks that 20wpm code operating
skill means you know all about dipoles has a serious problem that no
amount of discussion will ever change.

The new requirements *probably* will have no Morse code
requirements,
ergo Morse is not really relevant to this thread.

That an extra might have no idea about the length of a half wave
dipole
at 40 meters - or more importantly, precisely no idea on how to
calculate it - indicates a more serious problem to me.

- Mike KB3EIA -



But one that has nothing to do with 20wpm, which I didn't introduce into
the discussion

If it a'int broke, don't fix it ... the only thing that's "broke" is that
they
haven't yet eliminated the Morse test now that they're free to do so.

73,
Carl - wk3c


exactly.

Clint
KB5ZHT

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:

In article ,

(Larry Roll K3LT) writes:


I think that the most likely scenario is that they will do as you suggest,
and distill it down to two license classes, General and Extra. All current
Techs would be "grandfathered" to the General class, and the Extra will
remain the same, sans Element 1(a). This would be the easiest change
to accomplish from an administrative standpoint, and they wouldn't have
to even bother renaming the remaining license classes, which would only
risk causing resentment among current Extras. There could be, at most,
a requirement for current Techs to pass another written element, but the
grandfathering would be an easier fix.


ARRL asked for something very similar back in 1998 and FCC said no. (ARRL's
proposal would have given Novices and Tech Pluses instant upgrades to
General).

Such an instant upgrade has these problems:

1) A lot of screaming about "no giveaways"

Let's test your premise here, Jim. Would you support a one class system

in which all amateurs that have passed Novice, Tech, General or (of
course) Extra get an "instant upgrade" to Extra?

No. In fact, not just "no" but "HELL, NO!!"

That of course would be a simple and elegant solution. No more arguing
about anything as far as classes go.

"All amateurs are equal. Some are more equal than others" (with a tip of the
hat to George Orwell and "Animal Farm".

That would certainly cure the falloff in people getting Tech licenses
at the moment. A person would have to be foolish to not take the Tech
class license in order to get General class access after restructuring
as in your example, or full Extra access as in my one class idea.

Some folks would agree with that system, or one like it. After all, once upon a
time, anyone who could pass the Tech/General written (they were the same test
for 36 years) and the required code test got all privileges. If the code test
is removed, that leaves the General written.

Can anyone *prove* to me that the Extra written contains things a ham *must*
know to operate on the Extra-only subbands?

Be careful what you ask for.

73 de Jim, N2EY