Robert Casey wrote:
Dwight Stewart wrote:


Family farms don't hire that many outside workers. Instead, the
practice is seen most often on the large, corporate owned, farms - the
farms
owned by industries generating billions of dollars in profits each
year. And
nobody is going to convince me these corporations cannot afford to pay
higher wages. If my grandmother can do it and still make good profits,
these
much more wealthy corporations can certainly do so.


I'm a city boy, so I don't know much about farming, except for a vague
idea that farmers
grow stuff that gets converted to food sold at supermarkets. And that
there are massive
government subsidies for farmers. To make for cheap food in the USA. Or
something
like that........

Right! Massive subsidies, a "wink and a grin" when it comes to hiring
workers that legally can't be hired, etc, etc......

I remember a few years ago, there was a Dem candidate for some
position, and it was found out that she and her husband had hired an
illegal immigrant as a housekeeper. There was enough outrage that she
withdrew herself from consideration for the position.

She was wrong to do what she did, of course. But was she more wrong
than the corp farmer that hires illegal immigrant help?

- Mike KB3EIA -

N2EY wrote:

In article .net, "Dwight
Stewart" writes:


"Kim" wrote:

I don't know about you, but I sure don't want to be
paying the price of your philosophy noted above.
Oh. And how dare you tell me "nonsense," Dwight.
I am relaying to you things from my own experience
and you say to me, "NONSENSE?"


The nonsense was directed at your conclusions, Kim. How can you possibly
say "no one" is willing to do the work?


Dwight,

I think that when Kim writes "no one" in a context like that, she really means
"almost no one" or "hardly anyone" rather than the literal standard meaning
"not a single person" or "nobody at all".

Of course there's the economic concept, derived from supply-and-demand, that if
you have something nobody seems to want, you have to make it more attractive.
With a product, that can me a lower price; with a job, that can mean higher
wages/better benefits.

Sure! Corning Glass which recently closed in my town, had this
situation. The "hot" end of the building had work which was hot and
fairly dangerous, as working with molten glass is going to be. To entice
workers there, they were paid quite well. Simple supply and demand.

They are history now, and won't come back, as they can't compete with
the foreign sources. The foreign sources are so heavily subsidized by
their respective governments that it is just about impossible to compete.

I wonder what we'll do when the last manufacturing jobs are gone from
the US? Run up a white flag? (made in some other country, of course!)

- Mike KB3EIA -

N2EY wrote:
In article , "Kim W5TIT"
writes:

What was his problem? Did he feel the jobs were "beneath his dignity"
or some such?

Yep. He was "better" than all that. And, his friends would see him!


I must be getting old. When I was a teenager, I cannot remember anyone I knew
thinking a job was "beneath their dignity". There were some jobs that some kids
did not want to do for personal moral/ideological reasons, (like working for
the IRS ;-)) but those jobs weren't open to teens anyway.

There are still plenty of young people willing to take "menial" labor.
My son worked all summer cleaning a warehouse and tearout and hefting
the new materials on flooring construction. There were other people his
age there too. His girlfriend has *two* jobs (which is way too much for
a high school senior, IMO)


What sort of work did he expect to do as a teenager without special
skills?

Kids want jobs behind computers these days...or at a minimum, with the least
amount of physical labor, and definitely "out of the elements."

Considering what the elements must be where you are in summer, I can understand
that part. But the rest I don't.

I think its a big broad brush the situation is getting painted with
here. I don't know enough about all kids to know what all kids want to do.

an aside: I have seen a few other cases where an unemployed person was
*above* the jobs available. In each case, the underlying problem was
depression. Not to sound alarmist, but you might keep an eye out for
that, Kim.


Remember the classic movie "A Christmas Story"?

"Mommy, Daddy's gonna kill Ralphie!" What a movie...

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article .net, "Dwight
Stewart" writes:

"N2EY" wrote:

Y'know, it's interesting that so far nobody has directly
answered the question as to whether my grandparents
should have been allowed into the country...


Sorry, Jim, I didn't realize you expected a direct answer to that. In a
round about way, I did answer your question when I talked about how
immigrates years ago clearly benefited this country.

OK, your answer is clear now.

Nobody is criticizing
past immigration.

I would point out that back in 1906 there were people criticizing the
immigration of those times. Particularly immigrants who weren't from the
"right" parts of northern and western Europe...

Every wave of immigration *was perceived* as a threat to those already here,
because:

- they would usually work for lower wages and benefits
- they brought with them strange customs, clothes, languages and religions
- once Americanized, they added to the competition for jobs, education, etc.

Immigration quotas were enacted early in the 20th century for all these reasons
and more.

Some folks feel that one reason slavery died out in the north was the northern
tendency to encourage immigration as a source of cheap labor. IIRC, there were
*antiwar* riots in New York City in 1863, in part because some folks (including
recent immigrants) were afraid that freed slaves would migrate north and
compete for jobs.

The issue is massive immigration today and where we go
with it.

I think that for the reason of national security alone, we have to:

- change the criteria for legal immigration
- reduce/eliminate illegal immigration and visa abuse
- work towards better labor practices through both government and marketplace
action

73 de Jim, N2EY

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
. ..
Kim W5TIT wrote:

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...

Dwight Stewart wrote:

"N2EY" wrote:


OK fine. You wanna do migrant farm labor?



If I could still physically do it, I'd be thrilled to do so, Jim. My
grandmother owned a huge farm in North Carolina and I truly enjoyed

going

there every summer during my teenage years to work. I worked

side-by-side

with the hired laborers and did every single job they did. However,

because

of the low wages for most of those jobs today, I certainly wouldn't do

some

those jobs today (even if I could physically do so). However, a few

farmers

in the area still pay well and they have no problems finding labor. If
I
could do it, I wouldn't mind doing one of those jobs one summer just
for

the

fun of it.


Here lies the rub, Dwight! Although I disagree with a lot of your views
on race, you are spot on on this thread sub-subject.



No, the damned rub is in how much our products would cost if the jobs
migrant and transient workers do were paid at much higher pay
scales!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not that I want to see anyone suffering...

But where do we stop? As I noted to Jim, there are new jobs "going away"
from America, like those in some IT fields. Don't expect it to stop
there. The companies can pay much less for the help in India, and I
guess we are to be happy that our software may cost less. I'd pay a
little more for tech help I can understand. Anymore, it is getting
really hard to make out what the tech help is telling me.

- Mike KB3EIA -


Well, the fact that jobs are moving away from this country is not new--it's
been going on since I was in High School. And, while I don't like it, I'm
not going to get all bent out of shape over it--because there's not a damned
thing that's ever been done about and there will never be. The only way to
stop it from happening is to have the "rest of the world's" standard of
living raised. Or, ours lowered. It seems to me that as jobs have moved
out of this country (industries, we should say); they are slowly replaced by
others. That is to say that it seems almost a natural transition that has
been happening for at least two generations now. Sure, there are great
numbers of people displaced by the practice--but the economy and job markets
have recovered in every instance.

Personally, I could never figure out why the computer industry was as it was
in this country. When one considers that the technology of computers and
its resulting industry can literally be transported over phone lines, how in
the world is it that there was such a glut of computer, and telecom for that
matter, in this country? Some tech support person from across the ocean can
access my computer and help me fix it.

Consider this. I've been toying with the idea over the last few years that
it will the "menial" (as was put by someone else--I don't agree with the
term) jobs that will gradually grow to the higher paid jobs in this
country...because there will be less and less people who *will* do them.
The "services" of a migrant worker or a fast food person, or a municipal
worker or construction worker will become so highly needed, that they will
be able to demand a pretty penny for their work. Everyone will want the
sit-down-in-the-AC jobs and no one will want to work outside--where the meat
of our lives comes from.

Kim W5TIT

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
hlink.net...
"Kim W5TIT" wrote:


"People like me"? People like me?! Describe a
"people like me" won't you? I'm quite offended by
the characterization there, Dwight, I'll tell you
that.


"People like you" are those who accuse a person of racism without giving
that person an opportunity to explain anything you objected to. You did so
in the very first message you posted to this thread. "People like you" are
those who express indignation against one type of discrimination while
trying to justify or explain away another.



And you rolled me up into your neat littlle "people like you" package,
Dwight. And, I don't think I've accused you at all of being a racist. I am
so sure of this, I won't even look back on the older posts from me.

So, forget about dialogue...we both know where the other stands.

Kim W5TIT

"Kim W5TIT" wrote in message
...
Personally, I could never figure out why the computer industry was as it
was
in this country. When one considers that the technology of computers and
its resulting industry can literally be transported over phone lines, how
in
the world is it that there was such a glut of computer, and telecom for
that
matter, in this country? Some tech support person from across the ocean
can
access my computer and help me fix it.


What I object to is that they put people in customer service who speaks the
language so poorly that their help is worthless. I had this happen while I
was trying to cancel one of those "free internet trial subscriptions." It
took at least 15 minutes to get them to understand that I wanted it totally
canceled.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Kim W5TIT"

writes:

No, the damned rub is in how much our products would cost if the jobs
migrant and transient workers do were paid at much higher pay
scales!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do we really know how much a head of lettuce would cost if the farm
workers got
better wages? Does anyone know how much of the cost of various food items
goes
to those workers - and how much goes to the retailer, wholesaler,
transportation, processing, etc.?

Might be surprising.

Not that I want to see anyone suffering...

However, I doubt you'd find the workforce needed to do the jobs even
*with*
a higher payscale... Physical labor is an art these days.

Which explains a lot of modern society's problems...

73 de Jim, N2EY

Yep. You got it.

Kim W5TIT

Kim W5TIT wrote:

Consider this. I've been toying with the idea over the last few years that
it will the "menial" (as was put by someone else--I don't agree with the
term) jobs that will gradually grow to the higher paid jobs in this
country...because there will be less and less people who *will* do them.
The "services" of a migrant worker or a fast food person, or a municipal
worker or construction worker will become so highly needed, that they will
be able to demand a pretty penny for their work.


And when this happens your taco and a coke at Taco Bell will cost you $15.

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
.com...

"Kim W5TIT" wrote in message
...
Personally, I could never figure out why the computer industry was as it
was
in this country. When one considers that the technology of computers
and
its resulting industry can literally be transported over phone lines,
how
in
the world is it that there was such a glut of computer, and telecom for
that
matter, in this country? Some tech support person from across the ocean
can
access my computer and help me fix it.


What I object to is that they put people in customer service who speaks
the
language so poorly that their help is worthless. I had this happen while
I
was trying to cancel one of those "free internet trial subscriptions." It
took at least 15 minutes to get them to understand that I wanted it
totally
canceled.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


You and I both, Dee. I consider myself an above-average patient person.
However, many times the communication barrier between myself and who is on
the phone to help far exceeds the frustration from the cause of my call!

Kim W5TIT